US States that voted for Trump face factory closures due to Trump's trade war

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Re: US States that voted for Trump face factory closures due to Trump's trade war

Post by n0el »

Dolan wrote:I doubt that this is the case for big behemoths like Apple or Dell. They could very well afford investing in assembly lines in the USA, but the reason why they're not doing that is what I mentioned in a previous post: this is not primarily about labour costs, the reason why they are assembling their products in China and Taiwan is proximity to essential supply chains. Most relevant electronics components are made in that region and if you try to assemble in the US, you will first have to ship every one of them to the USA. And if you need very specific, custom-made parts that need constant refining and testing, that not only can add more costs, but critically can add more delays to your overall product delivery schedule. And this is what concerns hardware companies most. It's not some 0.5% extra costs in wages or some 2% extra costs in relocation of assembly lines. It's the disruption of their cycles of delivery. Clients expect them to deliver new products every 2 years or sometimes even faster. If they miss their cue, they risk becoming irrelevant vs their competition.


Correct. It isn't an issue for the big behemoths. It is an issue in the supply chain tiers. Supply chain tiers are under pressure to deliver share price and cost control up the ladder, that means low wages and low cost countries. The larger fish follow based on supply chain costs but their top down cost pressure helps drive this behavior.
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Re: US States that voted for Trump face factory closures due to Trump's trade war

Post by spanky4ever »

Dolan wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:I doubt that there are any good statistics available at this point in time. Its just to new. But there are plenty of statistics over the last last 5 decades, all showing that wages have stagnated/or even declined in USA.

You first claim you doubt there are any good stats, and then add that there are plenty of stats on this subject? Which one is it?


Well, as I said, there are plenty of good stastistics over the last 50 years, BUT for the last year, not so much. There is no contradictions here ;) Maybe just a misunderstanding ;)


Even UN sent out a warning recently: http://undocs.org/A/HRC/38/33/ADD.1 (for the full report) Here is a quote from Guardian about the report:
Donald Trump is deliberately forcing millions of Americans into financial ruin, cruelly depriving them of food and other basic protections while lavishing vast riches on the super-wealthy, the United Nations monitor on poverty has warned.

Philip Alston, the UN special rapporteur who acts as a watchdog on extreme poverty around the world, has issued a withering critique of the state of America today. Trump is steering the country towards a ā€œdramatic change of directionā€ that is rewarding the rich and punishing the poor by blocking access even to the most meager necessities.

ā€œThis is a systematic attack on Americaā€™s welfare program that is undermining the social safety net for those who canā€™t cope on their own. Once you start removing any sense of government commitment, you quickly move into cruelty,ā€ Alston told the Guardian.

Millions of Americans already struggling to make ends meet faced ā€œruinationā€, he warned. ā€œIf food stamps and access to Medicaid are removed, and housing subsidies cut, then the effect on people living on the margins will be drastic.ā€

Asked to define ā€œruinationā€, Alston said: ā€œSevere deprivation of food and almost no access to healthcare.ā€

for the whole article; https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... easures-un

It could very well be that you have no sympathy for the poor ppl in USA or even the struggling middle class, But I would say, it does matter, for us all. USA is the biggest locomotive in the global economy, and when a large percent of the ppl there, are struggling harder and harder, it will hit us all, sooner or later.

Trump has bragged about how well the economy is doing, based on stock markets. They got an artificial injection by massive tax cuts to the corporations - who in turn used the tax cuts to buy back their own stocks. With all the economic unrest his trade wars have made, it's just not enough to uphold the stocks anymore, so they are now set back to the value they had late 2017.

You copied a statistic in your post above; I would think this one gives a better picture of what we are talking about (it's from the same article)
https://www.advisorperspectives.com/dsh ... erspective
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Re: US States that voted for Trump face factory closures due to Trump's trade war

Post by spanky4ever »

Dolan wrote:Meanwhile Hillary Clinton is doing a complete u-turn on immigration:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... ump-brexit

She now supports curbing migration. :smile:


lol, I would argue that this is not news when it comes to Clinton.

https://youtu.be/4EthH8WdmvQ

She was secretary of state during Obamas time in Office, And Obama is the President who has sent back most illegal immigrants, in fact, he was much more effective that Trump has thus far.
It's a testament to President Donald Trump's capacity for malice that his deportation policy has terrified more while deporting less. Arrests by his administration's Immigration and Customs Enforcement in 2017 were about half what they were during President Barack Obama's peak years, 2010 and 2011, according to a new report by the Migration Policy Institute.

During Obama's first term, when he was laying the groundwork for what he hoped would be a comprehensive bargain on immigration, his administration aggressively enforced immigration law. ICE arrests peaked at more than 300,000 annually in 2010 and 2011. Deportations from the American interior -- in other words, not of people apprehended near the border ā€” surpassed 200,000 in both those years, also about twice the number reached in 2017. Pro-immigrant groups took to calling Obama the "deporter in chief."
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... -obama-did.

We could discuss Clinton and Obamas role in the Honduras military coup, but that is a totally different subject :ugly:
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Re: US States that voted for Trump face factory closures due to Trump's trade war

Post by momuuu »

idk about you guys but i'm just saying some late stage capitalism doing what late stage capitalism does best.
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Re: US States that voted for Trump face factory closures due to Trump's trade war

Post by spanky4ever »

momuuu wrote:idk about you guys but i'm just saying some late stage capitalism doing what late stage capitalism does best.


I would agree with you, but there are some exception, even republicans can be decent ppl.

https://youtu.be/y-r5LEJ-Edw?list=LLR47 ... rQUY7r0XJQ
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Re: US States that voted for Trump face factory closures due to Trump's trade war

Post by momuuu »

Random blabbering plus a video from some American newssite promoting Bernie Sanders.
How more spanky can it get?
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Re: US States that voted for Trump face factory closures due to Trump's trade war

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Re: US States that voted for Trump face factory closures due to Trump's trade war

Post by fightinfrenchman »

momuuu wrote:idk about you guys but i'm just saying some late stage capitalism doing what late stage capitalism does best.


What happens at the end of the "late stage"
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Re: US States that voted for Trump face factory closures due to Trump's trade war

Post by spanky4ever »

momuuu wrote:Random blabbering plus a video from some American newssite promoting Bernie Sanders.
How more spanky can it get?

That only tells me that you actually did not watch the video. Give it a few mins, and you will get it. This is a republican mayor from Texas :idea: and a Townhall on climate change, actually thought that was something you would enjoy ;)
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Re: US States that voted for Trump face factory closures due to Trump's trade war

Post by Horsemen »

Gendarme wrote:There's still slightly more room for more Spankness I think ;) ;) :ugeek: :lol: :idea:

Make some room for a spanking, gendarme!!!!!!
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Re: US States that voted for Trump face factory closures due to Trump's trade war

Post by Dolan »

iwillspankyou wrote:It could very well be that you have no sympathy for the poor ppl in USA or even the struggling middle class, But I would say, it does matter, for us all. USA is the biggest locomotive in the global economy, and when a large percent of the ppl there, are struggling harder and harder, it will hit us all, sooner or later.

Should I have more sympathy if Americans themselves don't? You can't live sympathising with every possible unfortunate outcome on this planet, or else you go insane. As I said earlier in this thread, Americans view poverty as a result of the poor's bad choices or lack of work ethic. They think that if you're poor in the USA, it must be because you're not willing to work hard, you just want to live off welfare or whatever resources you manage to leech. The fact that they have so much economic inequality in the USA is not an accident, it's the logical and intended result of how they organised their social system. They think poverty is basically social punishment for someone's unwillingness to work hard and lift themselves up from a worse condition. It also explains why they don't believe in universal healthcare, because they think social services are not something you deserve by default, it's something you gain, depending on your financial success. The higher you get, the more you deserve. Very different mentality from how Europe thinks about the subject. It's surely not the result of just Trump's policies or the Republicans' policies, it's the other way around. These people (Trump and Repubs) are the exponents of a prevalent current of opinion in the American society.

Trump has bragged about how well the economy is doing, based on stock markets. They got an artificial injection by massive tax cuts to the corporations - who in turn used the tax cuts to buy back their own stocks. With all the economic unrest his trade wars have made, it's just not enough to uphold the stocks anymore, so they are now set back to the value they had late 2017.

Trump will brag about whatever makes him look good in the media and in the voters's eyes and will dismiss whatever fact puts a dent in his rosy outlook on his performance as a president. His tax cuts reflect the mentality I described a few times in this thread, he thinks the government should incentivise companies and the rich because, according to his worldview, these big boys are making the world go around. They are the ones creating jobs, employing large numbers of people and paying huge amounts of taxes. Even though, the devil is in the details, obviously. There are plenty of such big companies and rich people dodging taxes (in fact, the richer you get the more expensive legal advice to avoid paying taxes you can afford), there are plenty of such big companies outsourcing big parts of their operations and using automation to remove salaried work from their operational costs, etc. But well, if you're born in a rich family, I bet you see things differently, you think everyone else can still breath thanks to your and your family's existence.

You copied a statistic in your post above; I would think this one gives a better picture of what we are talking about (it's from the same article)

Code: Select all

https://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/2018/10/16/u-s-household-incomes-a-51-year-perspective

Yes, I quoted some stats from sites of financial analysis, because it's very hard to find the right information from sites of US institutions. Very often they just publish them in one big lump, one document which doesn't break down the figures in more interesting correlations. Such as looking at the percentage of people in particular age brackets and income brackets. You can only find stats which present either one or the other, but not both, in conjunction. Which makes it difficult to draw conclusions on which age brackets are benefiting most from particular policies.
And, yes, this graph confirms that things in the USA are running as intended: those from higher income brackets are seeing more income growth and those from the bottom are seeing only a slight increase in their real, inflation-adjusted income, sometimes the graphs lines for lower-income brackets simply flatline.
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Re: US States that voted for Trump face factory closures due to Trump's trade war

Post by spanky4ever »

Dolan wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:It could very well be that you have no sympathy for the poor ppl in USA or even the struggling middle class, But I would say, it does matter, for us all. USA is the biggest locomotive in the global economy, and when a large percent of the ppl there, are struggling harder and harder, it will hit us all, sooner or later.

Should I have more sympathy if Americans themselves don't? You can't live sympathising with every possible unfortunate outcome on this planet, or else you go insane. As I said earlier in this thread, Americans view poverty as a result of the poor's bad choices or lack of work ethic. They think that if you're poor in the USA, it must be because you're not willing to work hard, you just want to live off welfare or whatever resources you manage to leech. The fact that they have so much economic inequality in the USA is not an accident, it's the logical and intended result of how they organised their social system. They think poverty is basically social punishment for someone's unwillingness to work hard and lift themselves up from a worse condition. It also explains why they don't believe in universal healthcare, because they think social services are not something you deserve by default, it's something you gain, depending on your financial success. The higher you get, the more you deserve. Very different mentality from how Europe thinks about the subject. It's surely not the result of just Trump's policies or the Republicans' policies, it's the other way around. These people (Trump and Repubs) are the exponents of a prevalent current of opinion in the American society.

Trump has bragged about how well the economy is doing, based on stock markets. They got an artificial injection by massive tax cuts to the corporations - who in turn used the tax cuts to buy back their own stocks. With all the economic unrest his trade wars have made, it's just not enough to uphold the stocks anymore, so they are now set back to the value they had late 2017.

Trump will brag about whatever makes him look good in the media and in the voters's eyes and will dismiss whatever fact puts a dent in his rosy outlook on his performance as a president. His tax cuts reflect the mentality I described a few times in this thread, he thinks the government should incentivise companies and the rich because, according to his worldview, these big boys are making the world go around. They are the ones creating jobs, employing large numbers of people and paying huge amounts of taxes. Even though, the devil is in the details, obviously. There are plenty of such big companies and rich people dodging taxes (in fact, the richer you get the more expensive legal advice to avoid paying taxes you can afford), there are plenty of such big companies outsourcing big parts of their operations and using automation to remove salaried work from their operational costs, etc. But well, if you're born in a rich family, I bet you see things differently, you think everyone else can still breath thanks to your and your family's existence.

You copied a statistic in your post above; I would think this one gives a better picture of what we are talking about (it's from the same article)

Code: Select all

https://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/2018/10/16/u-s-household-incomes-a-51-year-perspective

Yes, I quoted some stats from sites of financial analysis, because it's very hard to find the right information from sites of US institutions. Very often they just publish them in one big lump, one document which doesn't break down the figures in more interesting correlations. Such as looking at the percentage of people in particular age brackets and income brackets. You can only find stats which present either one or the other, but not both, in conjunction. Which makes it difficult to draw conclusions on which age brackets are benefiting most from particular policies.
And, yes, this graph confirms that things in the USA are running as intended: those from higher income brackets are seeing more income growth and those from the bottom are seeing only a slight increase in their real, inflation-adjusted income, sometimes the graphs lines for lower-income brackets simply flatline.


I want to compliment you on your very good knowledge of the English language. I also want to compliment you on good arguments, but sadly, you are at least 20 years off target.
Most USA ppl actually want a healthcare for all-system: 80% of the Democrat voters, and (believe it or not) 51% of Republican voters.
Thinking back on the Sanders campaign. He was a person who nobody had heard off, (a self-proclaimed socialist for crying out loud ;) )and he ran against Clinton who everybody had heard off. At the beginning of the campaign, she had 80% approval ratings. She said during the campaign; that healthcare for all. would never ever, come to pass. The punch line is that Sanders likely would have won if the Democratic party did not pull all the dirty tricks they had in the book, to undermine him, and cheat him from being the nominee. Guess what, he would have crushed Trump :!:
https://youtu.be/HSMGrKSUgj4

Nah, the USA you are describing is outdated, by many decades. The younger generations are not voting as their parents/grandparents do. I would say that there is a paradigm shift in USA politics, and its been coming for some time now

This is what Trump said during campaign:
https://youtu.be/TPJfKdp3bDs
lying out of his teeths.
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Re: US States that voted for Trump face factory closures due to Trump's trade war

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Re: US States that voted for Trump face factory closures due to Trump's trade war

Post by momuuu »

I still don't get what Spanky is arguing over though.
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Re: US States that voted for Trump face factory closures due to Trump's trade war

Post by momuuu »

fightinfrenchman wrote:
momuuu wrote:idk about you guys but i'm just saying some late stage capitalism doing what late stage capitalism does best.


What happens at the end of the "late stage"

Revolution my friend
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Re: US States that voted for Trump face factory closures due to Trump's trade war

Post by spanky4ever »

momuuu wrote:I still don't get what Spanky is arguing over though.

I am responding to a post, read my lips.
and what are you arguing about? If you are arguing about something, where are your arguments :P
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: US States that voted for Trump face factory closures due to Trump's trade war

Post by momuuu »

My arguments are written in Marx's manifesto
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Re: US States that voted for Trump face factory closures due to Trump's trade war

Post by spanky4ever »

Gendarme wrote:There's still slightly more room for more Spankness I think ;) ;) :ugeek: :lol: :idea:

agree :P :idea: :shock: :o :love: :santa:
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Re: US States that voted for Trump face factory closures due to Trump's trade war

Post by spanky4ever »

momuuu wrote:My arguments are written in Marx's manifesto

give us your best of them - smart guy ;)
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Re: US States that voted for Trump face factory closures due to Trump's trade war

Post by momuuu »

iwillspankyou wrote:
momuuu wrote:My arguments are written in Marx's manifesto

give us your best of them - smart guy ;)

https://www.shmoop.com/communist-manifesto/summary.html
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Re: US States that voted for Trump face factory closures due to Trump's trade war

Post by spanky4ever »

momuuu wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:
momuuu wrote:My arguments are written in Marx's manifesto

give us your best of them - smart guy ;)

https://www.shmoop.com/communist-manifesto/summary.html

OK, thank you for your very enlightenment post, it's about what I would expect :lol:
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Re: US States that voted for Trump face factory closures due to Trump's trade war

Post by Dolan »

iwillspankyou wrote:I want to compliment you on your very good knowledge of the English language. I also want to compliment you on good arguments, but sadly, you are at least 20 years off target.
Most USA ppl actually want a healthcare for all-system: 80% of the Democrat voters, and (believe it or not) 51% of Republican voters.
[...]
Nah, the USA you are describing is outdated, by many decades. The younger generations are not voting as their parents/grandparents do. I would say that there is a paradigm shift in USA politics, and its been coming for some time now

Thanks, it should be good, considering how much work it went into it.
I am aware that recent polls have shown that a greater proportion of Americans are attracted to the idea of universal healthcare or to having a unified federal system for health services. Though, from what I've seen, the numbers are a bit different:

Image

The higher % of Americans supporting universal healthcare might be due to a much higher proportion of Democrat voters who favour this idea, compared to Repub voters.
(Source: https://news.gallup.com/poll/191504/maj ... ystem.aspx)

On the other hand, it really makes you think if they actually know what a universal, Federal system of healthcare entails, if they also want their healthcare to be privately managed:

Image
(Source: https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling ... ystem.aspx)

Image
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Re: US States that voted for Trump face factory closures due to Trump's trade war

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Re: US States that voted for Trump face factory closures due to Trump's trade war

Post by spanky4ever »

@Dolan I think you are right, that there are lots of confusion about the concepts - I mean, it should be straightforward! But so many politicians are making their own "healthcare" concepts while concealing what they really want. But then again, the midterm election happened, and so many of the candidates that ran on it. while not taking corporate dollars should mean that the public has a pretty good conception of what it's all about. IMO this will happen, and pretty soon.
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Re: US States that voted for Trump face factory closures due to Trump's trade war

Post by fightinfrenchman »

momuuu wrote:
fightinfrenchman wrote:
momuuu wrote:idk about you guys but i'm just saying some late stage capitalism doing what late stage capitalism does best.


What happens at the end of the "late stage"

Revolution my friend


Can you give me an ETA on that?

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