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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by deleted_user »

Lol.

Costs of living differ, like a lot. A federal minimum wage isn't a bad idea itself, I'm all for living wages, but it has to by definition only apply to the areas of the lowest cost of living, and then, what is the point of making it a federal mandate? Leave it to the regions. There's too great a disparity between the urbanized super metropolises calling for a min wage increase and everywhere else that isn't even vocal in the debate but will be affected all the same.

Small businesses are good. I've seen the only gas station in town go in and out of business, seen 4 owners in 5 years, seen the local grocery store cut employees hours because dollar general moved in, and most everyone drive 30 minutes to get groceries anyways.

Big corps can pay it, and big corps are good, but only big corps is bad.

The best argument for it is that regional legislature is too incompetent to implement a region-specific living wage, which is a decent argument tbf.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by n0el »

do you think people said this same thing every time in history dating back to the original introduction of minimum wage? And well, no minimum wage?

Yes, some stores will close but in general, wage growth will be good. There’s no win for everyone solutions.regional wage floors is probably a better solution, but isn’t realistic.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by deleted_user »

Ye, which is why it needs to be a numbers game; I'm not going off a hard principle I have. $15/hour has to apply to the numerically small, but geographically significant low-income, rural populations. It seems high for Bloomfield, and probably low for Seattle. I don't like the blanket approach. Can't a federal mandate take regional data into account when distributing minimum wages? Or would people throw a fit because it's too biased? Doesn't it need to be?

It wouldn't surprise me if the median incomes between the municipalities I listed are 1:2. Mode incomes would just default to minimum wages, which is 1:1.6. Too disparitous (all good words aren't)!
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Actually, it's good for low-income people to lose hours
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by n0el »

It should, whether it could is another animal. Linking it to some kind of standardized cost of living formula seems like the best solution, but minimal wage is inherently flawed.
The point of 15$ minimum wage is about attacking poverty and the system that enables it as much as it is about guaranteeing pay.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by n0el »

fightinfrenchman wrote:Actually, it's good for low-income people to lose hours


Do you think Obamacare is a good policy?
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by deleted_user »

fightinfrenchman wrote:Actually, it's good for low-income people to lose hours

It's probably bad if low-income peoples lose net revenue, because their employers lose net revenue, and their businesses are not sustainable and employment is unstable, and we lose the small town altogether.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by deleted_user »

Of course it's best if everyone loses all their hours and we ascend into a nigh fully automated society, and devote all our time to art, philosophy, sexual gratification, and gardening. But we have a bit yet to go.

But until then, I'm stuck with the unfortunate resignation that a grueling wage is better than none, because Pyramids.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by n0el »

deleted_user wrote:
fightinfrenchman wrote:Actually, it's good for low-income people to lose hours

It's probably bad if low-income peoples lose net revenue, because their employers lose net revenue, and their businesses are not sustainable and employment is unstable.

That's assuming a marginal labor cost increase over 5-10 years affects employment. That is a BIG assumption to make.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by deleted_user »

Well, as small towns lose businesses, larger corps who can operate off tighter margins and remain profitable will move in. Employment will probably be alright, but wages aren't worth that sacrifice.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by fightinfrenchman »

$15 is a totally arbitrary number, it has no basis in good policy but only in messaging
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by n0el »

I'm not talking about general employment of said small town. I am talking about small businesses (ie not corporations). Marginal cost movement is always occurring. Average electricity costs are 50% higher than they were in 2012. Have small businesses adapted to that? Absolutely, or they wouldn't be around. Why should labor be any different, especially when the outcome is so much better? Where's the benefit going when the 50% energy cost is absorbed? Mostly likely not into the community that the small business resides in. Labor? Goes to the community and is a net plus. Imagine having more customers per say, perhaps that could offset the cost of the labor to begin with? Or perhaps it is a net gain?

Corporations are going to blunder regardless.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by n0el »

fightinfrenchman wrote:$15 is a totally arbitrary number, it has no basis in good policy but only in messaging

Sure, but let's say the policy number is 12.89$. Let's message a campaign to go to 12.89$! Especially when we have to negotiate that number. So our 12.89$ wage campaign that has a strong policy foundation gets negotiated down to 8.25 and we make a very small impact for serious work.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by deleted_user »

Yesh, it has traction because it appeals to metropolitan employees that make up the majority of the nation's work force. But if you haven't found out by now, utilitarian trolley problem solutions are not okay to employ.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by fightinfrenchman »

I mean you can campaign for whatever you want, it's just totally irrelevant when it comes to actual policy because it can't pass for at least another two years.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by deleted_user »

Noel knows more than I do. I defer!

But I want my Country Market to stick around. I don't like Dollar General :(
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by deleted_user »

fightinfrenchman wrote:I mean you can campaign for whatever you want, it's just totally irrelevant when it comes to actual policy because it can't pass for at least another two years.

So you admit voting is approximately useless?
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by n0el »

fightinfrenchman wrote:I mean you can campaign for whatever you want, it's just totally irrelevant when it comes to actual policy because it can't pass for at least another two years.

True that. Even then it won't pass because 20% of the Democractic party prefers capital over labor.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by fightinfrenchman »

deleted_user wrote:Yesh, it has traction because it appeals to metropolitan employees that make up the majority of the nation's work force. But if you haven't found out by now, utilitarian trolley problem solutions are not okay to employ.


This is why we need to abolish the Senate, so we can start ignoring flyover country
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by n0el »

deleted_user wrote:
fightinfrenchman wrote:I mean you can campaign for whatever you want, it's just totally irrelevant when it comes to actual policy because it can't pass for at least another two years.

So you admit voting is approximately useless?

DAvid was right!
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by fightinfrenchman »

deleted_user wrote:
fightinfrenchman wrote:I mean you can campaign for whatever you want, it's just totally irrelevant when it comes to actual policy because it can't pass for at least another two years.

So you admit voting is approximately useless?


No, obviously
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Amy Klobuchar 2020
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by deleted_user »

Wow, 2020 is a long ways away
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by fightinfrenchman »

deleted_user wrote:Wow, 2020 is a long ways away


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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by n0el »

fightinfrenchman wrote:Amy Klobuchar 2020

Good. She supports a large increase in minimum wage.
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