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Norway spanky4ever
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by spanky4ever »

fightinfrenchman wrote:If these ideas are so popular Bernie would be president

He would have been if he was given a fair chance, and you probably know that. I think he is more prepared now, and rumours have it he is gathering a great team ;) He will also use social media more than last time, to reach more ppl. Experience from last time, show that your corporate media will not give him air cover - and when they do, its mostly smears.
This time everybody knows him, and the issue with little name recognition in the first southern states will no longer be an issue.

As you know, he doesn't take any donations from Corp interests. Your candidate Amy Klobuchar on the other hand, do. I think she could be better than Clinton, but then again, who wouldn't?

Let's take a look at Amy
https://youtu.be/mYNhbHPsR5o
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by fightinfrenchman »

iwillspankyou wrote:[qI think she could be better than Clinton, but then again, who wouldn't?


Donald Trump
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by spanky4ever »

fightinfrenchman wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:[qI think she could be better than Clinton, but then again, who wouldn't?


Donald Trump

That is a really low bar :P
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by momuuu »

Dolan wrote:A flat tax system is the fairest, imo. Same conditions and requirements for everyone. Clear rules, simple to apply, less costs to apply tax regulations, nondiscrimination and equitability. I don't see why should people who earn more be punished for that. It incentivises them to seek ways to dodge taxes and to hold a grudge to governments and to people who are taxed less.

Right, a system that ultimately leads to only a handful people controlling all the wealth while the rest is poor as fuck is fair. Yes. Definitely. Surely that won't lead to a revolution.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Dolan »

Goodspeed wrote:I wouldn't and neither would the thousands of politicians who argued for progressive tax systems - which are used in almost every first-world country - in the past.

Politicians will argue in favour of anything that could bring them votes. Just as "the people" would vote for anything that sounds like a handout. I think that's the main reason why so many countries are still using a progressive taxation system. Simply because that's what brought their politicians votes, it's just a question of populism. It's a sort of a rule of the mob, applied to fiscal policy. "The people", again, would vote for anything that gives them something for free. And politicians are more than happy to oblige.
If kids could vote, I'm pretty sure they would vote for no school, lots of free cake every day and vidya games all day. Human adults are also big kids in this respect, at least most of them, they keep voting for politicians that promise them the moon in the sky, and eventually this gets reflected in public policy too. A progressive taxation system is meant to sweeten the pill of (natural) social inequality and pacify the masses, just like kids are easily pacified with shiny toys.

I think your view of poor people as lazy, drunken fools is... foolish. Of course they exist, but there's also Trump for example. High pay does not necessarily equal hard work, and the opposite is even further from reality.

For what other reason are we paying higher wages for some occupations and lower wages for others, if not as a form of recognition that some jobs provide more value to the economy than others? And logically, it follows that those jobs that produce the lowest value are usually taken by people of lower cognitive abilities. Sure, there are exceptions, there are people who inherited their fortune and don't really rise to the entrepreneurial spirit of their forefathers, there are people who get their jobs strictly because they just happened to get born in a richer family that secured them an expensive education which eventually landed them a well-paid sinecure. But such edge cases do not an economy make. You still need people who can produce real value, tangible goods that can sell to keep a business thriving. And those people, for example, those who produce microprocessors in Intel's or AMD's fabs, are not paid peanuts. They're in the higher brackets of income and are going to pay more taxes than some people who aren't capable of doing more than flipping burgers at McDonalds or wiping floors with a mop. I don't see how you could consider fair for someone who put a lot more effort in their education and who has a lot more responsibilities at their job to pay higher taxes simply because they also make more money (both for themselves and for their own company).

Brainlets are already getting a huge free ride by being allowed to vote, when their mental abilities don't really qualify them to properly evaluate policies and people who would be capable of carrying out those policies. No, better just vote for some politicians who promise them handouts and social security favours, because even if they're not capable of more, from an economic point of view, at least they can trade their vote in exchange for some state-funded facilities. This really explains why parties like the Democratic party in the US attracts this kind of voters.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Dolan »

momuuu wrote:Right, a system that ultimately leads to only a handful people controlling all the wealth while the rest is poor as fuck is fair. Yes. Definitely. Surely that won't lead to a revolution.

There's nothing unfair about inequality of income/wealth if it's justified, imo. If someone was capable enough to come up with an idea or product that eventually became successful, why should they be forced to pay more taxes than the rest of the population that didn't bother ever having any original idea or initiative?
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Dolan wrote:
momuuu wrote:Right, a system that ultimately leads to only a handful people controlling all the wealth while the rest is poor as fuck is fair. Yes. Definitely. Surely that won't lead to a revolution.

There's nothing unfair about inequality of income/wealth if it's justified, imo. If someone was capable enough to come up with an idea or product that eventually became successful, why should they be forced to pay more taxes than the rest of the population that didn't bother ever having any original idea or initiative?


I also remember being a high school freshman
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by momuuu »

Its not as if uncontrolled capitalism is a bad thing right? Who cares if the rest of the world are slaves, as long as the lucky few have more money than they could ever hope to spend.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by fightinfrenchman »

momuuu wrote:Its not as if uncontrolled capitalism is a bad thing right? Who cares if the rest of the world are slaves, as long as the lucky few have more money than they could ever hope to spend.


You can try to help counteract this issue by actually donating to the Telethon this year.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Dolan »

momuuu wrote:Its not as if uncontrolled capitalism is a bad thing right? Who cares if the rest of the world are slaves, as long as the lucky few have more money than they could ever hope to spend.

I wasn't talking about the much bigger subject of capitalism. You probably know I've criticised some parts of capitalism quite a lot in the past, especially the financial sector, which does not contribute significantly to value creation in the real economy, but brings immense risks to the stability of the economic system.

Also, this is not only about the super-rich, it's also about the middle class, you know, people who have high-paid jobs because they provide high-value contributions to the economy, like senior engineers, inventors, small and medium entrepreneurs.

I think we both agree that monopolistic and oligopolistic capitalism are bad, as well as casino capitalism, but that doesn't mean we should throw the baby out with the bathwater, that we should propose to scrap any market-based economic system.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Goodspeed »

Dolan wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:I wouldn't and neither would the thousands of politicians who argued for progressive tax systems - which are used in almost every first-world country - in the past.

Politicians will argue in favour of anything that could bring them votes. Just as "the people" would vote for anything that sounds like a handout. I think that's the main reason why so many countries are still using a progressive taxation system. Simply because that's what brought their politicians votes, it's just a question of populism. It's a sort of a rule of the mob, applied to fiscal policy. "The people", again, would vote for anything that gives them something for free. And politicians are more than happy to oblige.
If kids could vote, I'm pretty sure they would vote for no school, lots of free cake every day and vidya games all day. Human adults are also big kids in this respect, at least most of them, they keep voting for politicians that promise them the moon in the sky, and eventually this gets reflected in public policy too. A progressive taxation system is meant to sweeten the pill of (natural) social inequality and pacify the masses, just like kids are easily pacified with shiny toys.

I think your view of poor people as lazy, drunken fools is... foolish. Of course they exist, but there's also Trump for example. High pay does not necessarily equal hard work, and the opposite is even further from reality.

For what other reason are we paying higher wages for some occupations and lower wages for others, if not as a form of recognition that some jobs provide more value to the economy than others? And logically, it follows that those jobs that produce the lowest value are usually taken by people of lower cognitive abilities. Sure, there are exceptions, there are people who inherited their fortune and don't really rise to the entrepreneurial spirit of their forefathers, there are people who get their jobs strictly because they just happened to get born in a richer family that secured them an expensive education which eventually landed them a well-paid sinecure. But such edge cases do not an economy make. You still need people who can produce real value, tangible goods that can sell to keep a business thriving. And those people, for example, those who produce microprocessors in Intel's or AMD's fabs, are not paid peanuts. They're in the higher brackets of income and are going to pay more taxes than some people who aren't capable of doing more than flipping burgers at McDonalds or wiping floors with a mop. I don't see how you could consider fair for someone who put a lot more effort in their education and who has a lot more responsibilities at their job to pay higher taxes simply because they also make more money (both for themselves and for their own company).

Brainlets are already getting a huge free ride by being allowed to vote, when their mental abilities don't really qualify them to properly evaluate policies and people who would be capable of carrying out those policies. No, better just vote for some politicians who promise them handouts and social security favours, because even if they're not capable of more, from an economic point of view, at least they can trade their vote in exchange for some state-funded facilities. This really explains why parties like the Democratic party in the US attracts this kind of voters.
You do know that even flat tax rate systems are still percentual? Higher income means you pay more taxes either way. Going by your arguments, you are actually in favour of a regressive tax system.

Higher paid jobs often mean more value to the economy, yes, but not always. Teacher is one of the most taxing and valuable occupations, and in most places they don't get paid much, even high school teachers who are required to have university-level degrees.

But what about the proportion? People with more valuable jobs are paid a certain amount more, sometimes a very high amount. In many cases this is disproportional, and progressive tax systems make up for this.

And I should note that I believe equal opportunity to be unrealistic. It's a nice ideal, and in some places we do okay, but in for example the US it's not even close to the reality because of the sorry state of education there. Public schools have been declining in quality and they were already shit to begin with. Education is often more about religion than anything else. And everywhere, not just in the US, the intelligence, work ethic and level of education of one's parents are a big influence in the early development and intellectual potential of a child. On top of that, in most places financial resources of one's parents decide the level of education one can realistically get.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by n0el »

Not to mention once you break from labor to capital, you are basically gaining wealth through exploitation of labor and not from creating value. Why shouldn't Jeff Bozo be taxed at 90%+ over 10 million dollars when he's created a modern enslavement of the american worker. Sure he added value in the beginning, but left unchecked what grew out of that became a system that is enriching a few at the expense of many.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by spanky4ever »

How u like my new T-shirt ;)
Got this today, its a gift from Jimmy Dore :love: to his patreons :P
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Dolan »

Goodspeed wrote:You do know that even flat tax rate systems are still percentual? Higher income means you pay more taxes either way. Going by your arguments, you are actually in favour of a regressive tax system.

Yes, I know. What's more important is that everyone is paying the same amount of income taxes from a proportional point of view. No, a regressive tax system would also be unfair, since it would operate with different rules for different income brackets.
But this should only apply to income taxes. I'm not talking about profit taxes, taxes on capital gains, taxes on dividends, on property and so on. Those could be and maybe should be taxed differently, by taking into consideration how they are produced and the economic contribution brought about by the economic activity which yields those gains. Because, for example, some rich people do not have any salary or income, they live exclusively on capital gains and dividends. Maybe this kind of income should be taxed at a higher rate, it's debatable.

Higher paid jobs often mean more value to the economy, yes, but not always. Teacher is one of the most taxing and valuable occupations, and in most places they don't get paid much, even high school teachers who are required to have university-level degrees.

This is a problem to be solved by the employer, imo. There's a whole debate on how to best assess teachers' performance (rating systems, students feedback, post-educational outcomes, etc). Overall, I think this shouldn't be an issue to be tackled by a taxation system. A private educational institution should be free to set performance standards for its own teachers and reward them based on what they consider to be within acceptable range. A public system usually cannot afford to sustain a level of wages for teachers that is competitive enough compared to that of a private system (especially in the Anglophone world, where private education is usually of better quality but also much more expensive compared to a public one). However, in Europe, where public education is still available for free, teachers' wage levels are one of the subjects that is likely to sensitise politics. Very often in Europe, when one category of workers grows frustrated with the level of pay, they tend to take it to the streets and protest against the government. Such as it happened in 2000 in Italy (link), in 2018 in Poland and Ireland, in 2014 in Lithuania, in 2005 in Romania etc. Since teachers are an important and large category from a political point of view, these protests usually lead to a new round of pay rises.
On the other hand, while the teaching profession is important and can have a big impact on social outcomes, the services that teachers provide vary a lot in terms of quality. For some, teaching is basically a last-resort job for graduates who couldn't manage to find a job in a productive firm. Like, if they have a chemistry degree and couldn't secure a job in the industry, they could always apply to become a teacher and basically recite stuff they learned in university in front of a bored class.
So yeah, I agree, good quality teaching should be rewarded, but based on a rating system, not based on the assumption that the occupation in itself is so important it needs to be paid lavishly by default.

But what about the proportion? People with more valuable jobs are paid a certain amount more, sometimes a very high amount. In many cases this is disproportional, and progressive tax systems make up for this.

If the private employer can afford to do this, why should this concern the state? After all, if they pay them more, taxes that are owed to the state will also increase.

And I should note that I believe equal opportunity to be unrealistic. It's a nice ideal, and in some places we do okay, but in for example the US it's not even close to the reality because of the sorry state of education there. Public schools have been declining in quality and they were already shit to begin with. Education is often more about religion than anything else. And everywhere, not just in the US, the intelligence, work ethic and level of education of one's parents are a big influence in the early development and intellectual potential of a child. On top of that, in most places financial resources of one's parents decide the level of education one can realistically get.

Yeah, well, the USA's problem is cultural, it's a question of mentality, it's about how the whole country was built right from the start by settlers with a certain mentality. While they still kept some of the cultural luggage they brought from Europe, they were largely free from any constraints imposed by local and national politics. In Europe, the whole system is the result of centuries-old traditions that have been slowly and progressively tweaked. Power relations between different categories of professions and between them and the state have been negotiated over a long time and codified in ever-changing laws. This is missing in the USA. They started from scratch and kept only a modicum of traditions and cultural constraints, the most basic ones. Everything else was shaped by the "gold rush" mentality.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by spanky4ever »

@Dolan even though I have much respect for your knowledge on many issues, the post above is only showing your bigot point of views to US citizens in general, and teachers in particular.

For some, teaching is basically a last-resort job for graduates who couldn't manage to find a job in a productive firm. Like, if they have a chemistry degree and couldn't secure a job in the industry, they could always apply to become a teacher and basically recite stuff they learned in university in front of a bored class.


They started from scratch and kept only a modicum of traditions and cultural constraints, the most basic ones. Everything else was shaped by the "gold rush" mentality.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by spanky4ever »

@n0el guess the not being onboard with gay marrage is out dated:
https://youtu.be/IB6EChEqJOk
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by momuuu »

n0el wrote:Not to mention once you break from labor to capital, you are basically gaining wealth through exploitation of labor and not from creating value. Why shouldn't Jeff Bozo be taxed at 90%+ over 10 million dollars when he's created a modern enslavement of the american worker. Sure he added value in the beginning, but left unchecked what grew out of that became a system that is enriching a few at the expense of many.

This is very true.

I wonder if you are aware that your basically presenting marxist arguments right now.

Edit: I think maybe the tone is a bit off on this comment. What I meant to say is that what you are saying is basically marxist. Were you basically reciting his ideas or did you reach a similair conclusion independently? Just curious.
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Netherlands Mr_Bramboy
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

iwillspankyou wrote:@n0el guess the not being onboard with gay marrage is out dated:
https://youtu.be/IB6EChEqJOk

Cool, another Liberal adopting modern Republican viewpoints. What's her take on legalized baby murder?
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by n0el »

momuuu wrote:
n0el wrote:Not to mention once you break from labor to capital, you are basically gaining wealth through exploitation of labor and not from creating value. Why shouldn't Jeff Bozo be taxed at 90%+ over 10 million dollars when he's created a modern enslavement of the american worker. Sure he added value in the beginning, but left unchecked what grew out of that became a system that is enriching a few at the expense of many.

This is very true.

I wonder if you are aware that your basically presenting marxist arguments right now.

Edit: I think maybe the tone is a bit off on this comment. What I meant to say is that what you are saying is basically marxist. Were you basically reciting his ideas or did you reach a similair conclusion independently? Just curious.

Definitely Marxist. I would say both. I started thinking this way once I got a new job that gave me more exposure to the business side and at the same time I started following and reading Dr. Richard Wolff.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Jerom loves to radicalize people
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by n0el »

fightinfrenchman wrote:Jerom loves to radicalize people

Every great change was radical.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by spanky4ever »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:@n0el guess the not being onboard with gay marrage is out dated:
https://youtu.be/IB6EChEqJOk

Cool, another Liberal adopting modern Republican viewpoints. What's her take on legalized baby murder?

I do not get your message on this, what are you talking about? are you chunfused :P
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by spanky4ever »

n0el wrote:
momuuu wrote:
n0el wrote:Not to mention once you break from labor to capital, you are basically gaining wealth through exploitation of labor and not from creating value. Why shouldn't Jeff Bozo be taxed at 90%+ over 10 million dollars when he's created a modern enslavement of the american worker. Sure he added value in the beginning, but left unchecked what grew out of that became a system that is enriching a few at the expense of many.

This is very true.

I wonder if you are aware that your basically presenting marxist arguments right now.

Edit: I think maybe the tone is a bit off on this comment. What I meant to say is that what you are saying is basically marxist. Were you basically reciting his ideas or did you reach a similair conclusion independently? Just curious.

Definitely Marxist. I would say both. I started thinking this way once I got a new job that gave me more exposure to the business side and at the same time I started following and reading Dr. Richard Wolff.

Richard Wolff Is awesome, you should try listening to him @momuuu I think you would like his message :P
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

iwillspankyou wrote:
Mr_Bramboy wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:@n0el guess the not being onboard with gay marrage is out dated:
https://youtu.be/IB6EChEqJOk

Cool, another Liberal adopting modern Republican viewpoints. What's her take on legalized baby murder?

I do not get your message on this, what are you talking about? are you chunfused :P

Democrats are just now starting to adopt modern viewpoints that President Trump has had for years. As usual, Democrats are lagging behind in every department.

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