US Politics Megathread

[Goodspeed]

Should probably take her advice with a grain of salt at this pt

[fightinfrenchman]

Noel is a Russian troll who has been tasked with spreading disinfo on ESOC

[deleted_user0]

Tulsi sounds like a pornstar to me. Was she in any good ones?

Wow, you're so funny!!!



Calling a female politician a sex worker, wow, much amazed at your ingenuity, this surey has never been done before. Lol...

In before some idiotic explanation why your comments arent sexist/etc.

[Dolan]

So, if it was a guy called Rocco and I'd say his name sounds like that of a pornstar, that wouldn't be sexist, right?

[deleted_user0]

So, if it was a guy called Rocco and I'd say his name sounds like that of a pornstar, that wouldn't be sexist, right?

It's not rocket science. You're so intelligent. Go figure out the difference to what you say above, and what you did before.

Rocco isn't a name that sounds like that of a porn star, it's the name of a porn star. Although I don't know of any porn stars named Tulsi Gabbard or anything close to it, perhaps you can enlighten me. Just making that remark is one thing. But then you had to ask if she starred in any good ones, in that case you're no longer talking about someone else, but about her. Then ask yourself the question: How many times have you or anyone called a male politician a Rocco just to slander his name. Then think of every time you or someone else has done that to a woman.

You can try to twist your words and weasel your way out of it like always, but that doesn't change what you said or why you said it.

[Dolan]

> just to slander

Wow... just wow. Let's unpack this. Why are you implying being a pornstar is something disreputable? It's just a job like any other. And usually pornstars do use exotic names. And the context of the joke was that she was ranked number 1 in someone's list of preferred candidates, based on good looks.
It's no secret lots of good-looking people can gain easy entrance in the porn or modelling business.

Are you denying her the right to work in that industry just because of your preconceived and judgemental notions about the porn industry? Sounds like you're prejudiced against pornstars and you seem to assume they are lesser people, which is problematic.

[deleted_user0]

> just to slander

Wow... just wow. Let's unpack this. Why are you implying being a pornstar is something disreputable? It's just a job like any other. And usually pornstars do use exotic names. And the context of the joke was that she was ranked number 1 in someone's list of preferred candidates, based on good looks.
It's no secret lots of good-looking people can gain easy entrance in the porn or modelling business.

Are you denying her the right to work in that industry just because of your preconceived and judgemental notions about the porn industry? Sounds like you're prejudiced against pornstars and you seem to assume they are lesser people, which is problematic.

Nah, not at all. But it's an indisputable fact that in the USA, and not just there, sex workers are stigmatized.

I don't know what it takes for a name to be exotic in your book, but not only is that statement false, it also reeks of another vice of yours, racism, in which of course, everything which isn't pure caucasian, is related to sex, voluptuousness, and other kinds of salacious activities.

As I said, you can just try to weasel yourself out of it, but it doesn't matter. You can write it off as a joke, but the fact that you constantly feel the need to make jokes like these says something about what kind of person you are. It's not about the individual nature of your remark, but rather about the pattern, not just in your post history, but in human history. I had expected someone with your level of intelligence to be able to make that distinction. I guess I've once more sadly misjudged you... oh wait. I wasn't surprised at all that it came from you.

[Dolan]

Nah, not at all. But it's an indisputable fact that in the USA, and not just there, sex workers are stigmatized.

But I don't live in the USA and I don't necessarily write specifically for people living in the US. In fact, this topic was started by someone from Europe.
And how do you make your own contribution to removing the stigma if you don't challenge this sexist assumption that only women can find employment in the porn industry? By saying a joke is sexist because it involves a woman, you are perpetuating the stereotype, instead of opening the debate on equalising chances for both men and women to work in the porn industry.

I don't know what it takes for a name to be exotic in your book

If the name was Lexi or Capri, it would have had the same exotic connotation.

but not only is that statement false, it also reeks of another vice of yours, racism, in which of course, everything which isn't pure caucasian, is related to sex, voluptuousness, and other kinds of salacious activities.

Are you implying that caucasians cannot be voluptuous?

That just sounds like bigotry on your part.

As I said, you can just try to weasel yourself out of it, but it doesn't matter. You can write it off as a joke, but the fact that you constantly feel the need to make jokes like these says something about what kind of person you are. It's not about the individual nature of your remark, but rather about the pattern, not just in your post history, but in human history. I had expected someone with your level of intelligence to be able to make that distinction. I guess I've once more sadly misjudged you... oh wait. I wasn't surprised at all that it came from you.

I think you're just too quick to make assumptions about someone else's motives and ascribing negative intentions behind even the most benign joke.
You need to show a bit more mindfulness about other people's motives, it's called being a decent human being (just like pornstars).

[deleted_user0]

But I don't live in the USA and I don't necessarily write specifically for people living in the US. In fact, this topic was started by someone from Europe.
And how do you make your own contribution to removing the stigma if you don't challenge this sexist assumption that only women can find employment in the porn industry? By saying a joke is sexist because it involves a woman, you are perpetuating the stereotype, instead of opening the debate on equalising chances for both men and women to work in the porn industry.

I'm not saying the joke is sexist because it involves a woman. I'm saying it's sexist because such jokes are only made about women, particularly when they rise high in society. Nothing of what I said indicated anything about my personal beliefs. The fact that you made the joke while in europe is irrelevant, and I'm quite sure that the stigma about sex work in eastern europe isn't that much better than in the USA, which is in any case the country of the person the joke was made about, which makes my reference to the usa valid.

If the name was Lexi or Capri, it would have had the same exotic connotation.

Lol, no. And again, exotic isn't a term that has any determined substance. It's just a word to signify "otherness". Also, the top 5 most used porn star names (nikki, jessica lisa, angel, kelly) in the usa can't be called "exotic" even if you tried. Fail. Next.

Are you implying that caucasians cannot be voluptuous?

No, I wasn't. But I am now explicitly stating that you can't read.

I think you're just too quick to make assumptions about someone else's motives and ascribing negative intentions behind even the most benign joke.
You need to show a bit more mindfulness about other people's motives, it's called being a decent human being (just like pornstars).

Not quick at all, I've had a few years of experience observing the bullshit that's produced by your keyboard. The fact that you keep calling your "joke" benign only stresses point I made.

[fightinfrenchman]

Stop derailing the thread

[Dolan]

Stop derailing the thread

We're discussing Tulsi.

I'm not saying the joke is sexist because it involves a woman. I'm saying it's sexist because such jokes are only made about women, particularly when they rise high in society. Nothing of what I said indicated anything about my personal beliefs. The fact that you made the joke while in europe is irrelevant, and I'm quite sure that the stigma about sex work in eastern europe isn't that much better than in the USA, which is in any case the country of the person the joke was made about, which makes my reference to the usa valid.

That's where you're wrong. Here in Romania we had at least two cases of male politicians being promoted in the government, even though they had no other previous relevant experiences, except working as models. Heck, even one previous prime minister used to model when he was younger. And there were plenty of jokes about all these cases. So, sorry to break it to you, but there's no such partiality of treatment as you suggest, even in Eastern Europe. People will joke about anything when it comes to politicians.
And sometimes, women get elected in politics thanks to their previous career in porn. Ilona Staller for example. Imagine trying to make a "sexist" joke about her when she actually was a porn actress.

Lol, no. And again, exotic isn't a term that has any determined substance. It's just a word to signify "otherness". Also, the top 5 most used porn star names (nikki, jessica lisa, angel, kelly) in the usa can't be called "exotic" even if you tried. Fail. Next.

Are you denying me the right to find a certain name exotic? Heck, even Nikki is exotic here. Suzi - even more so. And Tulsi kinda sounds like pussi.

Are you implying that caucasians cannot be voluptuous?

No, I wasn't. But I am now explicitly stating that you can't read.

Well, you implied I assumed that

everything which isn't pure caucasian, is related to sex, voluptuousness, and other kinds of salacious activities.

So, if I assumed that, does that mean I also assumed caucasians are devoid of all that? And if they're not devoid of voluptuousness, then why would you accuse me of making that assumption only about particular races? Your statement just doesn't seem to make any sense, now that you are denying that caucasians cannot be volupuous too.
But anyway, you're making a lot of assumptions and jump to the conclusion I'm racist based on that. Was I also racist when I helped you make a decision on buying a new laptop (https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php ... 25#p196749)? Or when I helped other people, without even knowing what race they were or expecting anything in return? Quite the weird racist type I am, based on my actions.

Not quick at all, I've had a few years of experience observing the bullshit that's produced by your keyboard. The fact that you keep calling your "joke" benign only stresses point I made.

Or maybe you are just too quick to find sensitive issues even where they don't really exist.

Even feminists would find your feminist Talibanism as going a bit overboard:

[spanky4ever]

> just to slander

Wow... just wow. Let's unpack this. Why are you implying being a pornstar is something disreputable? It's just a job like any other. And usually, pornstars do use exotic names. And the context of the joke was that she was ranked number 1 in someone's list of preferred candidates, based on good looks.
It's no secret lots of good-looking people can gain easy entrance in the porn or modeling business.

Are you denying her the right to work in that industry just because of your preconceived and judgemental notions about the porn industry? Sounds like you're prejudiced against pornstars and you seem to assume they are lesser people, which is problematic.

I was not planning to reply to this post, cos its so stupid and also sexist. I would like to read it, and forget you ever said this, and move on

I get it, she is sexy and super good looking, - not like most of the candidates, so your brain makes "free associations" and you wish she could be yours
That is a OK Dolan - and I can forgive your absentmindedness and your brains leave of working for a minute. I mean, it happens to us all
But then you persist on defending your first, rather stupid remark? This is where it becomes dumb. As if your association of a Senator, and a vetaran Major of the US military, Who is running for POTUS, to a pornstar, (just because you found her good looking), is understandable, and worth defending, IN ANY WAYS
Cmon

[spanky4ever]

I do not know if you watched Bernie Sanders town hall on CNN the other day? I did though, was a late night for me
He did pretty good, but the questions he got was not really fair, turns out it was stacked, No surprise there.
https://youtu.be/-n4y4_5K6Ek

The Bernie hate from mainstream media, and DCCC is just mindblowing.

[n0el]

Looks like Beto is jumping in. Says he’s not challenging Cornyn.

[Jam]

If everybody just did the right thing we wouldn't need politics.

[deleted_user0]

I must say I find it impressive the type of mental gymnastics you put yourself through in order to justify the nonsense you're typing. It's amazing.

That's where you're wrong. Here in Romania we had at least two cases of male politicians being promoted in the government, even though they had no other previous relevant experiences, except working as models. Heck, even one previous prime minister used to model when he was younger. And there were plenty of jokes about all these cases. So, sorry to break it to you, but there's no such partiality of treatment as you suggest, even in Eastern Europe. People will joke about anything when it comes to politicians.

So... You're trying to say that Romania doesn't have stigma attached to sex work by claiming that even when people weren't sex workers, but were only working in a field remotely related to it (both being forms of modelling and using the body aesthetics to make money), they were still reduced to being sex workers. Wow. Nice logic.

It's a quite common fact that the only region worse than Eastern Europe when it comes to stigmatizing female sex workers (not women per se) is the Arab world (which, when it comes to cultural influence, can be said to include the Eastern African countries.)

Here are just some quick google searches related to the subject for you
https://newsmavens.com/news/smoke-signa ... rafficking
https://balkaninsight.com/2018/07/26/ho ... 7-25-2018/
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/romanian-c ... -/33978720
https://www.romania-insider.com/romania ... -and-women
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_ ... cial_views

Quote from a book I've recently read on sex work.
Research conducted in 2002 in Eastern Europe examining the psychological profile of sex workers indicated that 38% of women reported being raped by their clients on more than one occasion (my own thoughts: Which makes you wonder how many have been raped only on one occasion), and 18% reported being raped by the police.

Also, while pimping is illegal (and actually prostitution itself isn't), pimps are rarely convicted, while prostitutes are targeted and prosecuted way more often.

This is of course a bit old now, and it might have changed. But some of the more recent articles I linked about don't support that conclusion. Which cultural assumptions do you think must lie at the basis of someone's world view in order to do that to another person? Granted, it's not just a Romanian problem. It may not even be particularly bad, compared to some other countries, I don't know enough about that. But let's not pretend that Romania is the secret bastion of feminism, ok?

And sometimes, women get elected in politics thanks to their previous career in porn. Ilona Staller for example. Imagine trying to make a "sexist" joke about her when she actually was a porn actress.

So you can't see the difference between making a joke about someone's actual past? Or making a joke solely based on the fact that that person has a certain gender, and that statistically, these jokes aren't made even nearly as often for people from the other gender. Wow, Imagine that I wasn't talking about the former, but only about the latter? Mindfuck? Damn...

Are you denying me the right to find a certain name exotic? Heck, even Nikki is exotic here. Suzi - even more so. And Tulsi kinda sounds like pussi.

I am not denying you the right to anything, you are however objectively wrong. You have the right to think the earth is flat, and I have the right to think you are a lunatic because of that. I don''t know what "here" you're talking about, but I'm talking about the USA. Which names are foreign to Romania is of no concern to me or this discussion.

In any case, I didn't mention suzy, but suzy is a common derivative of Susan, which is in the top10 most common names for girls in the USA. And all the above mentioned most popular porn names are in the top 100 most popular actual names... surprise surprise... With the exception of Angel, which though not a common name, is a common nickname, as well as a an actual word in the English language. Very exotic indeed. Mental. Gymnastics.

Well, you implied I assumed that

No. But I'm again repeating my claim that you can't read. I might add the claim to that, that you can't think either. I'm not sure on that one yet. Depends on whether you're actually incapable of grasping it, or whether you are just trying to troll and failing.

So, if I assumed that, does that mean I also assumed caucasians are devoid of all that? And if they're not devoid of voluptuousness, then why would you accuse me of making that assumption only about particular races? Your statement just doesn't seem to make any sense, now that you are denying that caucasians cannot be volupuous too.

No. Just because you diminish something to certain attributes doesn't mean something else can't have those attributes. As an example, just because some people think that all women are dumb, doesn't mean they say that there aren't any dumb men.

And in any case, it's not my statement, so I'm not sure how it would pertain to me. You're reaching here, and of course changing the meaning of what you said before. You should qualify for the olympic gymnastic team.

But anyway, you're making a lot of assumptions and jump to the conclusion I'm racist based on that. Was I also racist when I helped you make a decision on buying a new laptop (https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php ... 25#p196749)? Or when I helped other people, without even knowing what race they were or expecting anything in return? Quite the weird racist type I am, based on my actions.

Point being? I think you need to educate yourself a bit on the words you're using. You have a very stereotypical view of what it means to be racist, or rather, to perpetuate racist stereotypes without challenging why you use it in the first place. I'm sure you're not a nazi or a white supremacist or what not, though I might be wrong, I doubt it. In any case, I never called you such.

Or maybe you are just too quick to find sensitive issues even where they don't really exist.

Or maybe I'm just fed up with your ignorance.

Even feminists would find your feminist Talibanism as going a bit overboard:

Good job on taking her words out of context. Shows how seriously you take her. Again, I applaud your mental gymnastics, it's been quite the show. You should try it on national television.

[Goodspeed]

These statements aren't contradictory no matter the context. Her point is that in this culture a woman's sense of self-worth is often [too] linked to men's expression of appreciation for how they look. So too hers. And she's disappointed in herself for this. All very understandable. The second statement is as much of a complaint about the culture as the first. To illustrate: With catcalling normalized, a woman not being catcalled will feel less confident about how they look. Even a feminist, despite knowing that being catcalled is more a negative experience than positive. But to her point: If it wasn't normalized, neither issue would exist.

Considering these statements contradictory frankly shows a lack of ability to empathize with this person, and women (all of whom have to deal with objectification one way or another) in general.

But this is off topic

[XeeleeFlower]

These statements aren't contradictory no matter the context. Her point is that in this culture a woman's sense of self-worth is often [too] linked to men's expression of appreciation for how they look. So too hers. And she's disappointed in herself for this. All very understandable. The second statement is as much of a complaint about the culture as the first. To illustrate: With catcalling normalized, a woman not being catcalled will feel less confident about how they look. Even a feminist, despite knowing that being catcalled is more a negative experience than positive. But to her point: If it wasn't normalized, neither issue would exist.

Considering these statements contradictory frankly shows a lack of ability to empathize with this person, and women (all of whom have to deal with objectification one way or another) in general.

But this is off topic

I love you.

Let's get this thread back on topic


http://time.com/longform/2020-democratic-primary/

[n0el]

Poor Mayor Pete. All the way in the back!

[fightinfrenchman]

It's almost Beto time

[n0el]

Glad he is running. More split vote on the centrist side.

[Dolan]

@deleted_user
[spoiler=1]

I must say I find it impressive the type of mental gymnastics you put yourself through in order to justify the nonsense you're typing. It's amazing.
So... You're trying to say that Romania doesn't have stigma attached to sex work by claiming that even when people weren't sex workers, but were only working in a field remotely related to it (both being forms of modelling and using the body aesthetics to make money), they were still reduced to being sex workers. Wow. Nice logic.

It's a quite common fact that the only region worse than Eastern Europe when it comes to stigmatizing female sex workers (not women per se) is the Arab world (which, when it comes to cultural influence, can be said to include the Eastern African countries.)

Here are just some quick google searches related to the subject for you
https://newsmavens.com/news/smoke-signa ... rafficking
https://balkaninsight.com/2018/07/26/ho ... 7-25-2018/
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/romanian-c ... -/33978720
https://www.romania-insider.com/romania ... -and-women
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_ ... cial_views

Quote from a book I've recently read on sex work.
Research conducted in 2002 in Eastern Europe examining the psychological profile of sex workers indicated that 38% of women reported being raped by their clients on more than one occasion (my own thoughts: Which makes you wonder how many have been raped only on one occasion), and 18% reported being raped by the police.

Also, while pimping is illegal (and actually prostitution itself isn't), pimps are rarely convicted, while prostitutes are targeted and prosecuted way more often.

This is of course a bit old now, and it might have changed. But some of the more recent articles I linked about don't support that conclusion. Which cultural assumptions do you think must lie at the basis of someone's world view in order to do that to another person? Granted, it's not just a Romanian problem. It may not even be particularly bad, compared to some other countries, I don't know enough about that. But let's not pretend that Romania is the secret bastion of feminism, ok?

[/spoiler]
What does prostitution have to do with all this? You're the one who brought the equivocal term of "sex worker" in this discussion. I just made a casual joke on someone's exotic name. And you're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Do you also go around the streets peeping on people's conversations to make sure they only make politically correct jokes, in which careful attention is paid to equality and animals' rights? Jeez..

[spoiler=2]

And sometimes, women get elected in politics thanks to their previous career in porn. Ilona Staller for example. Imagine trying to make a "sexist" joke about her when she actually was a porn actress.

So you can't see the difference between making a joke about someone's actual past? Or making a joke solely based on the fact that that person has a certain gender, and that statistically, these jokes aren't made even nearly as often for people from the other gender. Wow, Imagine that I wasn't talking about the former, but only about the latter? Mindfuck? Damn...

[/spoiler]
As I said, people were cracking jokes about some guys' past too, because it just happened that they once worked as models and now they got into politics. The joke has nothing to do with anyone's sex, it's just your tunnel-vision interpretation. I would have made the same joke if it was about a guy called Rocco or Romeo.

[spoiler=3]

Are you denying me the right to find a certain name exotic? Heck, even Nikki is exotic here. Suzi - even more so. And Tulsi kinda sounds like pussi.

I am not denying you the right to anything, you are however objectively wrong. You have the right to think the earth is flat, and I have the right to think you are a lunatic because of that. I don''t know what "here" you're talking about, but I'm talking about the USA. Which names are foreign to Romania is of no concern to me or this discussion.

In any case, I didn't mention suzy, but suzy is a common derivative of Susan, which is in the top10 most common names for girls in the USA. And all the above mentioned most popular porn names are in the top 100 most popular actual names... surprise surprise... With the exception of Angel, which though not a common name, is a common nickname, as well as a an actual word in the English language. Very exotic indeed. Mental. Gymnastics.

[/spoiler]
Yeah and Tulsi is definitely not a common name in the USA. It would sound exotic even there. Hence, my joke.

[spoiler=4]

So, if I assumed that, does that mean I also assumed caucasians are devoid of all that? And if they're not devoid of voluptuousness, then why would you accuse me of making that assumption only about particular races? Your statement just doesn't seem to make any sense, now that you are denying that caucasians cannot be volupuous too.

No. Just because you diminish something to certain attributes doesn't mean something else can't have those attributes. As an example, just because some people think that all women are dumb, doesn't mean they say that there aren't any dumb men.

[/spoiler]
Don't you realise how ridiculous is this sort of sophistry? How could you ever arrive at this conclusion from just a joke about someone's exotic name? She doesn't even obviously belong to any particular race, I've no idea what racial background she has. It's really just your projection here. You're attributing connotations to my joke that were simply not there.

[spoiler=5]

But anyway, you're making a lot of assumptions and jump to the conclusion I'm racist based on that. Was I also racist when I helped you make a decision on buying a new laptop (https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=318&t=9096&hilit=laptop&start=25#p196749)? Or when I helped other people, without even knowing what race they were or expecting anything in return? Quite the weird racist type I am, based on my actions.

Point being? I think you need to educate yourself a bit on the words you're using. You have a very stereotypical view of what it means to be racist, or rather, to perpetuate racist stereotypes without challenging why you use it in the first place. I'm sure you're not a nazi or a white supremacist or what not, though I might be wrong, I doubt it. In any case, I never called you such.

[/spoiler]
See comment above, I've no idea what race Tulsi is, I never even checked. For all I care she could be Polish-Filipino with a Miami tan.

[spoiler=6]

Or maybe you are just too quick to find sensitive issues even where they don't really exist.

Or maybe I'm just fed up with your ignorance.

Even feminists would find your feminist Talibanism as going a bit overboard:

Good job on taking her words out of context. Shows how seriously you take her. Again, I applaud your mental gymnastics, it's been quite the show. You should try it on national television.

[/quote][/spoiler]
Yeah, I'm quite cognitively flexible, thanks! And the point was that even a feminist can admit she has regrets that she feels bad about not getting men's attention anymore, since she has grown old.
It really shows how nature is starting to come into play here and how it overrides whatever flimsy, passing ideology you may have fed your cortex with.

[deleted_user0]

haha it's so funny how you keep twisting and turning both your own words and everyone elses. I have no interest to continue debating someone who is constantly dishonest in his arguments and unwilling or incapable of logic.

ps: tulsi is indeed not a common name in the usa. It's also not a common name in porn. hence your joke was just a fail. which was the point. John, Julian, Cory and Pete(r) are all names more used in porn than Tulsi or anything that looks/sounds like Tulsi, yet you didn't make a joke. Buttgieg is the one with the most jokeable name, but you didn't make a joke about him. Which was the point.

I don't care what else you have to say. You can make dumb jokes all you want. And I'll call you whatever I want for it.


I will actually elaborate on point 4, since you are clearly not getting it. That wasn't related to your joke. It was related to your excuse for it, that Tulsi is an exotic name and that exotic names are frequently used in Porn. Not only is the latter blatantly false as I have already demonstrated before, but the fact that you have this idea is a remnant of a past in which the exotic, especially when it came to women, were fetish objects used for the pleasure of white men. Obviously this is no longer the case as such, but the connotation still sticks to the word and the bias lingers in the subconscious (of almost everyone, not just you). It's better for you to be aware of it, whatever you do with that information is up to you. A simple google search will get you up to speed, or else I can recommend you some books.

[n0el]

Looks like Climate warrior Jay Inslee is also joining the race soon. I think he’s my number 2.

[spanky4ever]

First time I have heard about him
https://youtu.be/UXf0hjhL5Hc

His reason for running is Climate change. This is THE ONE issue we should all be concerned about, but I think it could be to narrow? I have no clue what his thoughts are about other really pressuring issues, like Healthcare for all, a livable paycheck, fair tax systems, tuitions free Collage/Uni education?
Guess we will know soon