US Politics Megathread

[fightinfrenchman]

@Dolan

[spanky4ever]

https://youtu.be/A2nklduvThs
I think this explains some of the issues, and as I said, its not black or white.

[Dolan]

What the video shows is that Ukraine had a turbulent recent history and that Crimea was subjected to numerous ethnic engineering projects, the worst conducted by Stalin who removed the native, majority population of Tatars and replaced it with Russians.

So it actually doesn't really support your point that this is a situation that would be best described in shades of grey. The matter of fact remains that Ukraine is and was a sovereign state and its borders have been breached and one big portion of its territory has been annexed by Russia using military force. It doesn't really matter much what kind of tricks they used to justify this, that they organised a sham referendum to justify such a breach of international treaties. The issue still remains that Russia is an occupying force in Crimea and that they have also funded and instigated eastern Ukraine to break away from Ukraine.

Sure, if you go back in history far enough, you could find any fact you want to support your point of view, you could even find that Norway doesn't belong to Norwegians, or that Hungarians belong in Central Asia, because they arrived in Europe at the end of the 9th century. So Hungary's neighbours should invade its territory and claim it for themselves, right? It doesn't work like that because modern borders have already been agreed by international treaties. And that's what Russia has trampled under foot, by invading Crimea.

[lejend]

[fightinfrenchman]

Donald the Dove https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1129056772994609153

[spanky4ever]

What the video shows is that Ukraine had a turbulent recent history and that Crimea was subjected to numerous ethnic engineering projects, the worst conducted by Stalin who removed the native, majority population of Tatars and replaced it with Russians.

So it actually doesn't really support your point that this is a situation that would be best described in shades of grey. The matter of fact remains that Ukraine is and was a sovereign state and its borders have been breached and one big portion of its territory has been annexed by Russia using military force. It doesn't really matter much what kind of tricks they used to justify this, that they organised a sham referendum to justify such a breach of international treaties. The issue still remains that Russia is an occupying force in Crimea and that they have also funded and instigated eastern Ukraine to break away from Ukraine.

Sure, if you go back in history far enough, you could find any fact you want to support your point of view, you could even find that Norway doesn't belong to Norwegians, or that Hungarians belong in Central Asia, because they arrived in Europe at the end of the 9th century. So Hungary's neighbours should invade its territory and claim it for themselves, right? It doesn't work like that because modern borders have already been agreed by international treaties. And that's what Russia has trampled under foot, by invading Crimea.

That's a load of it, even coming from you.
I know you mostly see things as black or white, or you pretend to do so, just for the sake of the argument. When it comes to Russia, its all bad, all black.

Anyway, its no use having a discussion with a person who cannot see the pros and cons. It's too exhausting, and at the end of the day, unfertile.

[Dolan]

wtf_am_i_reading.webp

No, I am not saying everything about Russia is black or negative. I am saying there's no doubt here that Russia has invaded another sovereign country and annexed their territory.

I'm not blaming the Russian people for that and it doesn't mean everything Russia does is bad either. It just means that in this particular situation Russia did the wrong thing. They did it for their own strategic reasons, I know, but they're acting like an imperial power that is above any rules.

You can criticise the West for anything, but nobody from the West (or NATO) is invading other countries and annexing their territory or trying to reshape international borders, in full disregard of international treaties and laws.

[spanky4ever]

You can criticise the West for anything, but nobody from the West (or NATO) is invading other countries and annexing their territory or trying to reshape international borders, in full disregard of international treaties and laws.

hmm, you sure about that

[Dolan]

Well, USA obviously made a huge mistake when they invaded Iraq to remove Saddam from power. It was such a major fuckup, we're still feeling the effects of that terrible mistake. But the USA didn't do that to get more territory, like Russia. Their ostensible reason was to make sure Iraq will not invade Kuwait again. Remember where it all started from? Iraq invaded Kuweit, so they weren't really that innocent in this story either.

In Afghanistan, in the so-called War on Terror, they didn't really invade, they worked with Afghan authorities who allowed them to fight rebel forces there. And they will at some point leave the country.

Since then, the West and NATO have avoided putting boots on the ground in any military operations. In Lybia there were just air raids, largely the same in Syria too.

I'm not saying the West and NATO are Snow White either, but they're not really invading other countries and occupying them, like Russia does in the 21st century.

[fightinfrenchman]

Let's keep it on topic

[spanky4ever]

I'm not saying the West and NATO are Snow White either, but they're not really invading other countries and occupying them, like Russia does in the 21st century.

I kind of got the impression that you were saying just that. Must be me, silly me

[spanky4ever]

Let's keep it on topic

This is not so far off topic as you think it is. Right now, the crazy to Trump is planning a war against Iran, that would be devastating to you, and generations to come. If Trump should fire somebody it should be Bolton and "pompeii"

[fightinfrenchman]

It wouldn't really affect me materially at all

[spanky4ever]

It wouldn't really affect me materially at all

I guess the war with Irak did not affect you economically If it did, you could quadruple that, and still pay rents for the next generations.

[spanky4ever]

It wouldn't really affect me materially at all

your answer is really shilling, and not taking in to account all the ppl who died, or got wounded, or got displaced. Is that how you think of your foreign policies, what profit you, and what does not
Think you got from C to D-

[fightinfrenchman]

It wouldn't really affect me materially at all

your answer is really shilling, and not taking in to account all the ppl who died, or got wounded, or got displaced. Is that how you think of your foreign policies, what profit you, and what does not
Think you got from C to D-

That's now how I view foreign policy and I am clearly opposed to war with Iran. I'm just saying I am very privileged so I probably wouldn't be economically "devastated" by it.

[spanky4ever]

It wouldn't really affect me materially at all

your answer is really shilling, and not taking in to account all the ppl who died, or got wounded, or got displaced. Is that how you think of your foreign policies, what profit you, and what does not
Think you got from C to D-

That's now how I view foreign policy and I am clearly opposed to war with Iran. I'm just saying I am very privileged so I probably wouldn't be economically "devastated" by it.

I am privileged aswell, but I still have my emotions intact and the ability of empathy

[fightinfrenchman]

I specified materially for that exact reason!

[spanky4ever]

I specified materially for that exact reason!

leave me out of your telethon then, or be sincere of what you are.

[fightinfrenchman]

I think you're misunderstanding me. I oppose a war with Iran on moral grounds because it would be totally useless and cause a lot of human suffering. It's not out of self-interest because, if I didn't care, I would be able to ignore it.

[spanky4ever]

well, you got a C+ you are surging @fightinfrenchman

[spanky4ever]

how about this @fightinfrenchman
https://youtu.be/iUC-ZnMdsfQ

[fightinfrenchman]

I obviously think it is very bad, that's why I spent a bunch of time and money trying to make sure Trump didn't win in 2016.

[spanky4ever]

I obviously think it is very bad, that's why I spent a bunch of time and money trying to make sure Trump didn't win in 2016.

problem is, you would get pretty similar policies with Biden. It's strange that you do not see it

[fightinfrenchman]

Biden supports the Iran Deal, Trump doesn't and pulled out of it. They are clearly different in this area