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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Goodspeed »

fightinfrenchman wrote:
n0el wrote:
fightinfrenchman wrote:Promoting human rights is good whether it's agreed upon by a majority or not.

Okay I agree with you. How does that have anything to do with what I said? But thereā€™s a big difference in promoting human rights through democracy and subverting it to implement your own ideas.
I'm saying it's good to force it on people
In theory I agree, but consider what it would take to do this (oppressing the majority) in practice. For one, democracy is no longer an option for you. I don't think the ends justify the means there.
Dolan wrote:I don't really care about what they do in their countries. It's their country, their culture, their people. They are free to decide things and do whatever they want in whatever way they want. But I'm not the one proposing a global government tasked with implementing our view on morality and human rights.

Which, btw, this moralistic view on human rights is nothing more than Eurocentrism/Anglocentrism. We are imposing our view on human rights onto their own views, underpinned by their own cultures. Which is a bit abusive on our part and offensive to the Muslim world and to China who do not share our ideas on universal human rights. They see such attempts at putting pressure on them in the name of "universal human rights" as acts of intrusion in their politics and cultures.
Cultures change, and I do think we can try to nudge them towards democracy and better human rights. Not through military action, but through diplomacy and by setting an example. We should try because I do think, at the risk of sounding arrogant, Western culture "knows better" in many ways. For example our focus on individual rights is important, because without that you will invariably end up with one group oppressing another. Democracy is an important check on power. Imposing our views on these things is not necessarily a bad thing, depending on the method.

It's also in our own interest. Human civilization needs to come together to take care of the planet.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Dolan »

Goodspeed wrote:Cultures change

I'm not sure to what degree this can be proven and verified. On the face of it, it seems self-evident that culture would be something learnable/unlearnable. But culture doesn't include only cognitive components (learnable stuff), it also includes affective styles, cognitive styles, food predispositions which are translated into traditional recipes and tastes which are shared among those who belong to the same ethnic group, changes in their dentition which predispose them to pronouncing certain phonemes in ways that members of other ethnic groups may not be able to fully reproduce, and so on.

Doctors working in clinics already know that some health markers are different in different populations. For example, the risks for prostate cancers are considered to be higher among African-Americans in the USA and lowest in Asian-Americans in the USA. And this is very likely based on subtle differences in the genetics underpinning how androgen hormones are metabolised (I think some studies showed that, for example, different ethnic groups have different numbers of alleles for certain androgen receptors, which might lead to differences in how they process androgens, including testosterone and dihydrotestosterone). The evidence on this line of study is variable, there's no final word on whether these differences manifest themselves in behaviour too.

Let's assume that there are subtle genetic differences that might explain why certain cultures developed in certain ways. Why for example, Asian cultures tended to develop collectivistic political regimes and values. Why individualistic values appeared in Europe first, as well as both ancient and modern democracy, etc.

It's a very complicated thesis to prove, but it's a plausible one. We might even learn that certain combinations between genetics and locations lead to differences in behaviour too. We already know that different populations developed different adaptations to different environments. For example, Early Neolithic Europeans were lactose intolerant even as early as 7000 years ago. They gradually developed tolerance for dairy products as dairy farming became widespread in Europe. This probably led to very peculiar cultural customs too, it may have even influenced their dentition and eventually shaped their languages. So changes in environment led to genetic adaptations which allowed them to process different foods (we already know this and have evidence for it) and this may have also had side effects on how their teeth were positioned on their jaws (which are also slightly different among different regional populations) and, downstream, may have led to these people developing very particular languages, since they could pronounce phonemes differently than other populations. See this story for some coverage on this phenomenon: https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/03 ... languages/

And so on and so forth with affective styles, cognitive styles, and ultimately all this might be expressed in different cultural paradigms, values.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by spanky4ever »

n0el wrote:@spanky4ever I think thereā€™s an important difference between not supporting the war machine but associating with authoritarian governments (Gabbard) and not supporting the war machine but also not supporting those governments but rather supporting their left rivals (Sanders).

I'm sorry, but this doesn't sound good or legit to me. On the other hand, it sounds like "more of the same regime changing policies" that the USA has been promoting, for a very long time.
I believe you should have a diplomatic relationship with, not only the countries you agree with but also the ones you disagree with, instead of trying to overturn that government.
The USA has been trying to undermine the government in the Middle East, and in South America, for decades. Overturning those legit elected governments, and then supporting the far right-leaning government, in order to subtract the nations national resource.
I say, enough of that shenanigans, and try diplomacy instead (like Tulsi are promoting).
Its like USA people have bought into the idea, that they have the right to interfere with other states governments, as much as they like. On the other hand, you get hysterical with the meddling that Russia did in your election.
It's just weird to look at how you (USA ppl) do not see the double standards here. Really strange. :huh:
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by n0el »

I am not suggesting overturning the government. I am suggesting supporting their existing parties like Labour in the UK or Syriza in Greece, PT in Brazil, etc...
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by lejend »

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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by spanky4ever »

n0el wrote:I am not suggesting overturning the government. I am suggesting supporting their existing parties like Labour in the UK or Syriza in Greece, PT in Brazil, etc...

I know (I think) but when you say Modi in India, you should also know that he was just re-elected by the Indian ppl.
I mean, you have to realize the facts and not just dream about how it could be, or support the opposition in a hostile way, like the USA have a bad habit of doing.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by n0el »

Yes, I know that. I am saying that Sanders should be publicly supporting, for example, the CPI when it comes time to talk elections or whatever. Do you doubt that we need a global movement towards socialist policy, especially when it comes to saving the planet from the pending environmental disaster?
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by spanky4ever »

n0el wrote:Yes, I know that. I am saying that Sanders should be publicly supporting, for example, the CPI when it comes time to talk elections or whatever. Do you doubt that we need a global movement towards socialist policy, especially when it comes to saving the planet from the pending environmental disaster?

I do not doubt that, since the right wing has so clearly been working against it, in many instances. What I have serious objections about, is that your country, AND other supernations, want to dictate how other countries should be run. It has been a disaster for too many ppl, in too many nations worldwide. Its time to take a good look at your own bias PPL of USA, and stop thinking you can decide who rules, and where.
If you make diplomatic contacts, in the best interest for the country at hand, and can be a good example on how political issues should be solved in the interest of its population in general, THEN, and only then, will you be given credibility. As it is now, you have shown your ass to the world, and I am sorry to say, that USA is no longer the beacon of liberty, equal opportunity, and rule of law, as so many Americans still think you are.
The USA is currently on the list of flawed democracies, and that was even before Trump got elected :idea:
:!:
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Googol »

iwillspankyou wrote:
n0el wrote:Yes, I know that. I am saying that Sanders should be publicly supporting, for example, the CPI when it comes time to talk elections or whatever. Do you doubt that we need a global movement towards socialist policy, especially when it comes to saving the planet from the pending environmental disaster?

I do not doubt that, since the right wing has so clearly been working against it, in many instances. What I have serious objections about, is that your country, AND other supernations, want to dictate how other countries should be run. It has been a disaster for too many ppl, in too many nations worldwide. Its time to take a good look at your own bias PPL of USA, and stop thinking you can decide who rules, and where.
If you make diplomatic contacts, in the best interest for the country at hand, and can be a good example on how political issues should be solved in the interest of its population in general, THEN, and only then, will you be given credibility. As it is now, you have shown your ass to the world, and I am sorry to say, that USA is no longer the beacon of liberty, equal opportunity, and rule of law, as so many Americans still think you are.
The USA is currently on the list of flawed democracies, and that was even before Trump got elected :idea:
:!:


I think you should show some gratitude to the Americans and the US, especially considering that they saved Western Europe from Soviet communism/bolshevism and probably the rest of the Western World by winning the Cold War, you might not like their interventionist policies over the world, but dont forget that if the Soviets actually won it would be way way way worse than it is now.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by spanky4ever »

@Googol did you notice that I said, superpowers, and was not only referring to the USA, about interfering in other countries? As for rescuing us, it was, in fact, the Soviet army who rescued Norway in WW2, and they did not claim any of the territories in return. I am grateful for the Marshall help, for sure, but that doesn't mean I cannot criticize them for the policies ever after, especially for their interventionism to other countries rule of law and government.
When that is said, the USA has claimed to be the best democracy in the world for some time now, while it is clearly not. Their foreign interventionism has mostly been to promote US economics and Big Corp, to exploit the national resources from other countries. So yeah, thx for the Marshall help, it was necessary to build up Europe so you could have partners to trade with :P

or maybe you thought it was pure altruism ;)
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by spanky4ever »

fightinfrenchman wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:my second best is Tusli, and I do not trust Warren, and that is from how I read her from her merit since 2015.


Read the article I posted about Tulsi, she's a nutcase

I will answer that, once you make some bullet points in your own words. Tbh, this is probably one of the worst hit pieces, and I will not bother myself with stupid smear articles. But if you can line them up for me, I will surely read your post, and consider it for what its worth. :idea:
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Dolan »

I think Spanky is partially right. Very often the US has behaved on the international stage like the perfect manifestation of the Dunningā€“Kruger effect. Their confidence in telling other nations how they should run their country has been inversely proportional to the degree to which they understand other cultures and to the quality of their own democracy. Their inability to understand other cultures is probably the worst, which eventually leads to bad outcomes for the countries where they intervened with their military forces. Despite their efforts to turn Iraq into a democracy, the outcome has been that the country has become the stage for a neverending conflict between religious and tribal clans and eventually lost a big chunk of its territory to ISIS. They recently got it back, but Iraq is still far from being a genuine democracy, since their culture simply doesn't have the values that can allow proper development of a true democracy. It lacks that kind of civic culture that leads to a truly democratic system.

However, it's important to be realistic. If it wasn't the USA, some other country would have been the dominant superpower and would have imposed their point of view. And if that country was Russia or China, things would have been much worse than what we see today. So this outcome is preferable to any other alternative. Better work with the devil you know, than go with an alternative that has already been proven to be much more destructive.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by princeofcarthage »

You don't know if Russia or China were dominant things would be different. China is currently the challenging power and hence US tries to make them seem as bad as possible. Maybe Chinese way of life isn't that bad. Remember there is nothing like wrong or right in this world, what is there are only the perspectives of individuals which creates different society and dominant one being often called the right.

Can you from neutral point of view say with certainty that a Chinese individual life is worse than that of American?
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by spanky4ever »

@Dolan say
However, it's important to be realistic. If it wasn't the USA, some other country would have been the dominant superpower and would have imposed their point of view. And if that country was Russia or China, things would have been much worse than what we see today. So this outcome is preferable to any other alternative. Better work with the devil you know, than go with an alternative that was already proven to be much more destructive

I do not buy that, "if it wasn't USA, it would be another superpower". The USA has at least 800 military bases all over the world. I think China has none, and maybe Russia has 4? Nah, it's not the same, It is DIFFERENT :idea:
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

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I think I already know, seeing how Communist Russia and Communist China behaved during the Cold War. The reason why Eastern Europe is so poor today is also because the USSR kept this part of Europe under their control, using their markets to dump their internal production and making sure any dissenting government would be removed from power, like they did in Czechoslovakia in 1968.

Communist Russia (the USSR) installed their own governments in Eastern Europe after WW2 and made sure things were run according to their own interests. And look how those countries turned out. They went through economic stagnation and totalitarian regimes for almost half a century. The USSR under Stalin killed tens of millions of people, sending them to the gulags in Siberia. They proceeded to mix ethnic populations in each country they controlled to make sure they would never revolt against the USSR. They bullied the whole world with their nuclear arsenal. If you are not familiar with the subject, read about the effects of the USSR Stalinist regime, about how many people died because of their genocidal policies, how many countries were kept under a totalitarian control.

We, in Eastern Europe, have already experienced that and I assure you it was much much worse than what the USA is doing today. 10 times worst.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by princeofcarthage »

You also know that USA is doing everything right now in their power to suppress China and Russia and that they have been doing it since WWII? Of course a war with Russia and China would be global nightmare but from how USA treats smaller countries its pretty clear that USA will do everything to remain the dominant force. USA is Imperialistic Democracy in some ways. USA has literally destroyed progressing countries by interfering. What is happening to China and Russia will one day happen to India, Brazil and other potential Superpowers. America already destroyed North Korea, Iraq is dead, Iran will meet the same fate. It's either get in line or get rekt.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by spanky4ever »

Dolan wrote:I think I already know, seeing how Communist Russia and Communist China behaved during the Cold War. The reason why Eastern Europe is so poor today is also because the USSR kept this part of Europe under their control, using their markets to dump their internal production and making sure any dissenting government would be removed from power as they did in Czechoslovakia in 1968.

True I think, they got rid of the CEOs and replaced them with politicians. Bad idea, but that is what differs Communism with socialism.
In socialism, the workers own the tools and are responsible for the outcome, but they also receive the money from the product that they produce.
Big Difference.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Dolan »

The USA is not sending tens of millions of people to gulags, it is not supporting genocidal regimes that imprison their own people or starve them, they do not invade a country simply because their political leadership refuses to comply with their policies, etc.

Seriously people READ ABOUT STALINISM. Stop being so clueless. You have no idea how destructive Communism and the USSR have been for the world. Same for Communist China. Read about how many TENS OF MILLIONS OF CHINESE PEOPLE HAVE DIED, BECAUSE OF MAO-TSE DONG's INSANE POLICIES.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by n0el »

But they do. What the fuck are you talking about?
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Dolan »

The Legacy of Mao Zedong is Mass Murder

https://www.heritage.org/asia/commentar ... ass-murder

Communism and Stalinism have killed more people than even Nazism.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistor ... stalin.htm

Joseph Stalin, leader of the Soviet Union, set in motion events designed to cause a famine in the Ukraine to destroy the people there seeking independence from his rule. As a result, an estimated 7,000,000 persons perished in this farming area, known as the breadbasket of Europe, with the people deprived of the food they had grown with their own hands.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by spanky4ever »

Dolan wrote:The USA is not sending tens of millions of people to gulags, it is not supporting genocidal regimes that imprison their own people or starve them, they do not invade a country simply because their political leadership refuses to comply with their policies, etc.

Seriously people READ ABOUT STALINISM. Stop being so clueless. You have no idea how destructive Communism and the USSR have been for the world. Same for Communist China. Read about how many TENS OF MILLIONS OF CHINESE PEOPLE HAVE DIED, BECAUSE OF MAO-TSE DONG's INSANE POLICIES.

did you ever see me wanting to send ppl to Gulag, I mean, did you even read my last post :?: nah, I am the product of the best democracy in the world, and I wish it to be even better. I will not use power to push it on other ppl, but the Norwegians is an example to follow, and not by gunpoint.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by princeofcarthage »

United States has been responsible for somewhere between 20-30 million deaths since WWII. I want to see you justifying that. The problem is you have been living the US lie for so long that entire world seems bad to you. Of course no one is clean and US has done things that China and Russia has done. Maybe even worse. USA is responsible for death of millions and their many future generations when they dropped atomic bombs. USA doesn't want other nations developing Nuclear or Chemical weapons when USA itself has largest stockpiles of those weapons? #Hypocrisy. USA has destroyed, divided numerous nations. Atleast Russia and China don't do it under the pretext of "For your own good we are doing this" "For the better future" and other such things.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by spanky4ever »

Dolan wrote:The USA is not sending tens of millions of people to gulags, it is not supporting genocidal regimes that imprison their own people or starve them, they do not invade a country simply because their political leadership refuses to comply with their policies, etc.

Seriously people READ ABOUT STALINISM. Stop being so clueless. You have no idea how destructive Communism and the USSR have been for the world. Same for Communist China. Read about how many TENS OF MILLIONS OF CHINESE PEOPLE HAVE DIED, BECAUSE OF MAO-TSE DONG's INSANE POLICIES.

This is were you lose it, and go bananas. I get it, communism is really bad, and I agree. See my post above, and read it this time :shock: :!:
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Dolan »

n0el wrote:But they do. What the fuck are you talking about?

The USSR invaded Czechoslovakia simply because this country wanted to implement reforms that would have made them more democratic and less dependent on the USSR. They wanted to remove censorship, to ensure freedom of the press, freedom of movement, employment based on meritocracy and so on. And what did the USSR and its satellite countries do? They invaded them and removed that government from power, installing their own puppet government. No, it's not the same with what the USA has done anywhere else in the world. The US didn't invade any country because they were trying to become more democratic. For fucks' sakes, just think and read a bit about it. Read about the Prague Spring and about the Brezhnev doctrine.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Dolan »

princeofcarthage wrote:United States has been responsible for somewhere between 20-30 million deaths since WWII. I want to see you justifying that. The problem is you have been living the US lie for so long that entire world seems bad to you. Of course no one is clean and US has done things that China and Russia has done. Maybe even worse. USA is responsible for death of millions and their many future generations when they dropped atomic bombs. USA doesn't want other nations developing Nuclear or Chemical weapons when USA itself has largest stockpiles of those weapons? #Hypocrisy. USA has destroyed, divided numerous nations. Atleast Russia and China don't do it under the pretext of "For your own good we are doing this" "For the better future" and other such things.

Post historical evidence supported by real historians which support what you are saying.

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