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Nauru Dolan
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Dolan »

princeofcarthage wrote:I like how you bring up Nazi and Stalin but fail to bring up how a democratic British empire precipitated 2 world wars that directly resulted in millions of deaths, starved 35 million Indians to death, and thats just in India, America? Africa?

I don't think I ever defended the British empire's policies, so I'm not sure why you're bringing up this point.
If you want to talk about which empire caused most deaths in history, you can also check the effects of the Mongol invasion in Eurasia. It's estimated they killed off 5% of the world's population (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructi ... gol_Empire).
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by princeofcarthage »

In raw numbers brits still win
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Dolan »

iwillspankyou wrote:
Dolan wrote:@spanky4ever It's how the arguments progressed, if you check back the replies. It was about whether it is preferable to have a world dominated by the USA or by Russia and/or China. History shows that when Russia and China had it their way at least in one part of the world, they killed a lot more people and wrought a lot more destruction than the USA ever did in their whole history.

So, as I said, better with the devil you know.

And I can repeat myself: let the countries decide on their own. I guess we could agree on that :?:

Absolutely, but realistically there will always be some countries that will play a more dominant role than others. And if there is a choice to make, I'd rather go with the lesser evil, in this case the USA. That's not to say I won't criticise their policies when they fail.

Also, by supporting this opposition to any kind of intrusion by the USA in another country's business, you're running counter to Noel's plan:
noel wrote:we need a unified left wing global movement against authoritarian governments
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by spanky4ever »

Also, by supporting this opposition to any kind of intrusion by the USA in another country's business, you're running counter to Noel's plan:

I know, and that is how this discussion came about, 3 pages ago ;)
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by n0el »

@Dolan Capitalism has killed way more people than communism, it’s not even debatable.

You mention Afghanistan, that’s recent history and nothing to do with the question that @princeofcarthage posed. What about Iraq? What about Korea? What about Vietnam? What about funding the contras? What about funding Al Qaedato fight the Soviets? The example are endless. Clearly Stalinism was bad, but how can you say that it’s in its own league when it’s not. American abuses are endless.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by deleted_user0 »

Dolan wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:I like how you bring up Nazi and Stalin but fail to bring up how a democratic British empire precipitated 2 world wars that directly resulted in millions of deaths, starved 35 million Indians to death, and thats just in India, America? Africa?

I don't think I ever defended the British empire's policies, so I'm not sure why you're bringing up this point.
If you want to talk about which empire caused most deaths in history, you can also check the effects of the Mongol invasion in Eurasia. It's estimated they killed off 5% of the world's population (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructi ... gol_Empire).


I never knew the mongols were capitalists... now whaduyaknow... learn something new everyday talking to dologican.

Also colonialism can't make countries poor. Only communism can. Romania doesn't have to learn about colonialism, but the world has to read about communism. Lawl. Typical Achromatic Supremacism by Dologican. Maybe it's just in the genes, genes have destined Romanians to be poor. It's hard to prove this, but it's totally plausible.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by deleted_user0 »

Dolan wrote:The USA is not sending tens of millions of people to gulags, it is not supporting genocidal regimes that imprison their own people or starve them, they do not invade a country simply because their political leadership refuses to comply with their policies, etc.

Seriously people READ ABOUT STALINISM. Stop being so clueless. You have no idea how destructive Communism and the USSR have been for the world. Same for Communist China. Read about how many TENS OF MILLIONS OF CHINESE PEOPLE HAVE DIED, BECAUSE OF MAO-TSE DONG's INSANE POLICIES.


Don't really care about this argument who is better or worse blablabla. But it's funny how you always know so little about whatever it is you are apologetically defending...

The USA is not sending tens of millions of people to gulags

Gulags... Reservations... Internment camps... Refugee Detention Centers... potatoes... potatoes...

it is not supporting genocidal regimes that imprison their own people or starve them

It actually was a genocidal regime. And it did support genocidal regimes... Or what do you think the British and the French colonial empires were? What do you think South Africa was? What do you think Israel is?

they do not invade a country simply because their political leadership refuses to comply with their policies

There are so many numerous examples of this one, I can't even believe you seriously mention it. It's like the trademark move of the US by now... Sometimes they invade, sometimes they assassinate or just make the leader disappear, other times they fund the opposition to spark a civil war. Potatoes... Potatoes...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... _of_Panama
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrest_an ... _Dinh_Diem
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... in_America

you should also read up on the way the US and Russia fought their cold war in Africa, and how they influenced regimes, tried to remove (i.e. assassinate) leaders that fell out of step, etc etc.

The US didn't invade any country because they were trying to become more democratic.

Perhaps not, but a good case can be made for it with for example guatemala.
But it did invade countries because they were trying a different form of government than the USA liked to see. Or it imposed crippling sanctions. Or meddled with another country's internal politics in different ways.

Which country did the US invade because it was trying to adopt Communism?


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion

If this one doesn't belong into invaded because not the right type of democracy it definitely fits into overthrown regime because communist. Democratically elected communist.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Gu ... '%C3%A9tat


So now we have established... Hitler was bad mmmkay? Stalin was bad mmmkay? Mao was bad mmmkay? Uncle Sam was bad mmmkay? Can we now move on and talk about how we can make things better mmmkay?
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Dolan »

n0el wrote:@Dolan Capitalism has killed way more people than communism, it’s not even debatable.

You mention Afghanistan, that’s recent history and nothing to do with the question that @princeofcarthage posed. What about Iraq? What about Korea? What about Vietnam? What about funding the contras? What about funding Al Qaedato fight the Soviets? The example are endless. Clearly Stalinism was bad, but how can you say that it’s in its own league when it’s not. American abuses are endless.

Can you prove that capitalism has DIRECTLY killed more people than communism? No indirect, "morally responsable" bullshit. Directly, as in Reagan ordering the killing of 1 million people or sending them to starve in a polar region in a prison camp. That's what Communism did. If you aren't familiar with the subject, I recommend you not to read more, but visit the countries, talk to the people, see how many of their families have been sent to die in Siberia, how many summarily executed, how many sent to prison for just a JOKE. Yeah, that's right, if you made fun, if you only just cracked a joke about Ceausescu during Communist Romania, you were sent to prison. Show me similar examples that happened under a democratic regime, not capitalist regime, because capitalism is not a political regime, let's get the terms right.
My uncle lived in Brasov, a city in Romania where there has been a short-lived revolt against the Communist regime. After the revolt was stifled and people who participated sent to prison, people were afraid to talk about it even in their homes, because you never knew where Securitate, the political intelligence service, planted any mics. Phones were bugged and monitored, your workplace was crawling with informers, even members of your family might have been coopted by the regime as informers. There were plenty of cases in which family members turned their own relatives in, sending them to prison, only for the crime of criticising the regime.

Iraq was a mess, no doubts about it, but it wasn't a system killing its own people, there's a big difference here. It was your country's political and military establishment overreaching its legitimacy and making a mess of another country's internal order, in the name of, you know, the same cause you were quoting as a basis for having a global movement: making sure there are no authoritarian regimes, among other things. And I say "among other things" because the official reasons why they invaded Iraq was a long list, actually. But this "moral" reason of removing an authoritarian regime was part of that list. They were basically putting into practice what you wished for, making sure Saddam couldn't oppress his people, spreading democracy and human rights and stuff.
Legally, the US has justified its involvement in Iraq in 2003 by issuing the so-called Iraqi Resolution (Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002).
https://www.congress.gov/107/plaws/publ ... ubl243.pdf
Whereas Iraq persists in violating resolution of the United NationsSecurity Council by continuing to engage in brutal repression of its civilian population thereby threatening international peace and security in the region

They needed something much scarier than just the fact that Iraq broke some UN Resolutions or was acting abusively against its own people. That's why they came up with the weapons of mass destruction BS. But if you ask them now, when the WMD motive has been exposed as a fabrication, they will continue to defend it on moral grounds, they will claim it was an authoritarian regime that was suppressing its own people. You know, they were part of a global movement against authoritarian governments...

What about Korea and Vietnam? Those were proxy wars between the USSR and the USA. Vietnam was divided between North and South, same for Korea. There have been military conflicts there since the 50s, when the French were involved in the First Indochina War. The Korean war started when the North, supported by the USSR and China, invaded the South. Same in Afghanistan. The USSR basically sent their army to invade the country and suppress a popular rebellion against the Communist party that was in power. You can't say that China or the USSR had any excuse here to invade those countries and get involved in their internal affairs, not any more than the US had when they invaded Iraq.

The big difference is, though, that back home, the US government wasn't sending people to prison for speaking their mind. While the USSR, China, Communist Romania were doing just that.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

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Beto 2020
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

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a popular rebellion funded by the americans.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by princeofcarthage »

Yes @Dolan capitalism has directly resulted in 2 world wars, colonalism, slavery, millions of deaths due to famines. African countries are still exploited for their reaources. Remember warsaw pact was created in response to Nato and not vice versa. Maybe USSR and China started wars but flames were always ignited by USA to protect and expand its interests.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by n0el »

So because they killed other people and not their own people it was justified. Got it.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

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I guess US servicemen, the American Native population, American slaves or poor who’ve died or been killed by the system don’t count either.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

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obviously it counts. Boeing's greed causing 2 plane crashes and killing over 1500 people, that counts. But it's still not the same as ordering those 1500 shot or sent to a camp where they're likely to die. Considering that boeing knew about the technichal problems and the risk it posed, it's nothing short of murder, but it's still not the same. not that it really matters, comparing these kinds of things is so pointless, just shifting blame around to avoid taking responsibility to fix the situation.

Ah we're bad? But what about the Americans? But what about the Mongols? But what about the Romans (which funnily enough you'll never hear Dolan say, but that's another issue) But what about the Assyrians?! blablabla
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by gibson »

n0el wrote:I guess US servicemen, the American Native population, American slaves or poor who’ve died or been killed by the system don’t count either.
Dude didn't you listen to Dolan? If it wasn't a US politician DIRECTLY ordering the killing of people it doesnt count! Those people who died as a result of capitalism dont count, they probably arent even really dead.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Horsemen »

@n0el
@princeofcarthage

Capitalism is an economic system that respects individuals' right to private ownership. It does not have anything to do with slavery or killing Native Americans. Neither of those outcomes is consistent with capitalism.

So if a homeless person dies in America, it's because of capitalism? There are millions of preventable deaths each year in third-world shitholes like India which happen because these countries aren't rich enough to provide adequate healthcare, education and shelter to their citizens. A capitalist system would promptly solve these problems by generating greater prosperity and wealth (and currently is - record numbers are being lifted out of poverty and into longer, more comfortable lives thanks to capitalism).

You think wars happen because of capitalism? We are living in the most peaceful time in our history, and this is happening because capitalism is thriving. Capitalism provides the incentive to engage in free and peaceful trade. Without capitalism, there would be more armed conflict.

Famines? Capitalism is the only system that reliably produces a food abundance. Famines take place when the capitalist system is disrupted. There are plenty of examples of this - The Great Leap Forward, Collectivisation, every single Sub-Saharan African conflict in the last century.

Most importantly, capitalism is the most moral system. It is the only economic system that appropriately respects the capacity of individuals to form their own life plan. It encourages honesty and integrity, because without these values there could be no system of voluntary exchange. It promotes a stable and transparent rule of law, so that business can be transacted fairly. It is also the most egalitarian system. Capitalism respects everyone equally, regardless of race, gender, nationality, or social origin.

All the problems you describe - slavery, colonialism, famine, poverty, war - are the antithesis of capitalism. Still, these problems are less severe than ever, and are steadily declining. We only have capitalism to thank for that.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

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Even I can agree that David Sirota is an idiot.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by n0el »

Horsemen wrote:@n0el
@princeofcarthage

Capitalism is an economic system that respects individuals' right to private ownership. It does not have anything to do with slavery or killing Native Americans. Neither of those outcomes is consistent with capitalism.

So if a homeless person dies in America, it's because of capitalism? There are millions of preventable deaths each year in third-world shitholes like India which happen because these countries aren't rich enough to provide adequate healthcare, education and shelter to their citizens. A capitalist system would promptly solve these problems by generating greater prosperity and wealth (and currently is - record numbers are being lifted out of poverty and into longer, more comfortable lives thanks to capitalism).

You think wars happen because of capitalism? We are living in the most peaceful time in our history, and this is happening because capitalism is thriving. Capitalism provides the incentive to engage in free and peaceful trade. Without capitalism, there would be more armed conflict.

Famines? Capitalism is the only system that reliably produces a food abundance. Famines take place when the capitalist system is disrupted. There are plenty of examples of this - The Great Leap Forward, Collectivisation, every single Sub-Saharan African conflict in the last century.

Most importantly, capitalism is the most moral system. It is the only economic system that appropriately respects the capacity of individuals to form their own life plan. It encourages honesty and integrity, because without these values there could be no system of voluntary exchange. It promotes a stable and transparent rule of law, so that business can be transacted fairly. It is also the most egalitarian system. Capitalism respects everyone equally, regardless of race, gender, nationality, or social origin.

All the problems you describe - slavery, colonialism, famine, poverty, war - are the antithesis of capitalism. Still, these problems are less severe than ever, and are steadily declining. We only have capitalism to thank for that.


That isn't true at all. Capitalism is and always has been a system in which the individual (read capitalist) is empowered to maximize their own utility (read profit). Do you think we would have ever had slavery if not for the MASSIVE profit driver? Do you think we would have savaged Native Americans to take their land if not to profit off that land? Do you think that millions of people would die from preventable diseases if those cures weren't controlled by firms seeking profit? Do you think that the US would have invaded Iraq, if not to gain access to their oil resources? Do you think the US gives a shit about the people of Venezuela, rather than gaining access to their oil?

Of course none of these things are true, they are foundations of capitalism as a system. In fact, there are many very engaging arguments and historical analyses that show that capitalism is fundamentally incompatible with democracy and human rights. Read Democracy in Chains. The capitalist system exists to protect the capitalist, not to protect the majority.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Horsemen »

@n0el
That isn't true at all. Capitalism is and always has been a system in which the individual (read capitalist) is empowered to maximize their own utility (read profit). Do you think we would have ever had slavery if not for the MASSIVE profit driver? Do you think we would have savaged Native Americans to take their land if not to profit off that land?

Again, not capitalism. Any system that fails to respect individual rights is not a capitalist system. The profit motive is only natural and exists under socialism as well as capitalism. The key difference is that capitalism restrains the profit motive. It prevents people from running roughshod over the rights and freedoms of others.

Do you think that millions of people would die from preventable diseases if those cures weren't controlled by firms seeking profit?

i) Most of the preventable deaths in developing countries are caused by pretty basic things: having the right sanitation, nutrition, primary healthcare, building robust homes and neighbourhoods for people to live in, promoting awareness of issues like obesity and diabetes, even just having dentists to pull teeth. Plus practically all of the most important medicines - like vaccines, painkillers, flu shots - can be bought extremely cheaply in developing countries. So high prices from pharma companies is not really the issue here. All of these problems would be solved if these countries were wealthier and could afford the basic necessities required to give people a decent life.
ii) Do you expect companies to hand out cures for free? How would this be economically sustainable? Where would the resources come from? How would they acquire the means to develop new cures?
iii) A lot of cures are being handed out for free by charities, who are funded by - you guessed it - capitalist, developed nations. You need resources to get better healthcare, and capitalism is the best system for producing the most resources. Most of our solutions to healthcare would not even exist were it not for capitalism.

Do you think that the US would have invaded Iraq, if not to gain access to their oil resources? Do you think the US gives a shit about the people of Venezuela, rather than gaining access to their oil?

Do you think the Soviet Union actually gave a shit about the people of Afghanistan, rather than propping up a puppet state to provide a buffer zone in central Asia? Do you think China cared about the people of North Korea, or that North Vietnam cared about the people of Cambodia? Capitalism isn't perfect, but it's far better than the alternative for preserving peace.

In fact, there are many very engaging arguments and historical analyses that show that capitalism is fundamentally incompatible with democracy and human rights.
On the contrary, we see everywhere that the world's most successful democracies are capitalist. Capitalist societies are typically wealthier - they have more resources to spend on education, and their citizens have more time to contemplate and discuss political matters. Capitalism greases the wheels of democracy like no other system does. Moreover, like I already said, capitalism is the only system that safeguards individual rights. Out of all the economic systems, capitalism is the one that is most compatible with democratic principles.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by n0el »

I don’t know what system you are talking about, but it isn’t capitalism. So just ignore what I’m saying because your utopia doesn’t exist.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

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n0el wrote:Even I can agree that David Sirota is an idiot.


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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by n0el »

Just like Hillary! (Mark Penn)
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