US Politics Megathread

[spanky4ever]

I think Richard D. Wolff makes a lot of good points.
https://youtu.be/a1WUKahMm1s

yeah, I get it, it is a long speech, so many of you don't bother. But I will say, Richard Wolff gives a good analysis

[Googol]

@spanky4ever thank you for the links, ill watch it later today after ill get some sleep.

[Dolan]

@Googol and @Dolan and whoever is interested. I know this in ONE video, and one example, but this could be many if ppl just think out of the box

Code: Select all

https://youtu.be/8ZoI0C1mPek

Btw there are 100s of videos out there if you are interested

Mondragon Corporation was quoted as an example of a big company that uses a form of worker participation in both ownership and, to a lesser degree, decision-making. However, it must be said that this company also outsources work to poorer countries and those workers from its international branches are not represented in the ownership structure. And, if the info I've seen on some sites is true, most of Mondragon's sales come from international markets (about 70%).

Source for this info:
https://medium.com/fifty-by-fifty/mondr ... 29de8c6049

The same source claims that this might be due to a difference in cultures:

The most compelling reason we heard for why these international workers are not also owners is that there is not a culture of cooperatives in these foreign markets and Mondragon does not believe in, or have the capabilities for, proselytizing the cooperative form. Admittedly, it might also be against their economic interest to include more worker-owners in the confederation. But whatever the motivation, the net result is to create a set of second-class citizens on whose backs the growth of the firm now depends.

It's difficult to find reliable, recent data on the fundamentals of this company, so very often numbers can vary a lot. I'm not yet sure what the current percentage of owners vs total employees is right now. Some sources quoted 80% in 2013 (https://wedreambusiness.org/Mondragon-Corporation.html), others quoted less. It's also possible that more recently, Mondragon has increased its outsourcing to countries with cheaper labour, and since international employees do not benefit from the same rights as employees from Spain, the proportion of non-owners may have increased.

This somewhat more recent article (2013) from Guardian says that less than half of the companies' employees participate in the co-ownership scheme:

Like other European companies, Mondragon is exposed to fierce competition from developing world competitors with lower labour costs. Its response has been to set up factories – or buy companies – in other parts of the world. There are now 94 subsidiaries producing goods from Vietnam to Chile, Morocco and Russia.

Workers at these, however, are not co-op members (fewer than half of Mondragon's workforce are members) – meaning they are also raw-blooded capitalists, living off the labour of others.

Source: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/ ... ooperative
This seems to confirm that Mondragon has started outsourcing more in the latest years, probably because it cannot compete anymore with companies from countries with cheaper labour (like China, Vietnam, India). So their answer to global competition was to simply create production facilities in those countries with cheap labour. Workers from those outsourced facilities do not benefit from any co-ownership rights. And as I mentioned above, it appears that most of Mondragon's sales (70%) are made outside Spain.

On top of that, it seems they are also using a significant number of part-time employees, whose jobs can be removed quickly, should the company go through a downturn:

In order to protect their own jobs from fluctuations in demand, 20% of the workforce are on part-time or short-term contracts and can easily be shed

Source (2001): https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... tionalnews

One of the questions that comes to mind is: how do they adapt to market downturns? From all the articles I've read, they seem to prioritise saving jobs by cutting wages. If one of their companies is going through a rough patch, they redistribute some of the workers to other companies and/or lend them money to keep them afloat. Even so, faced with the pressures of competing on global markets, one of their biggest companies, Fagor, a washing appliances manufacturer, has gone bankrupt in 2014 and was acquired by another Spanish company. It would be interesting to see what is the average wage in Mondragon's companies, both domestic (Spanish) and international, as well as in those companies that were forced to cut wages, as a result of diminished competitiveness or declining sales.

Overall, it seems that this is far from being a purely cooperativist company, its model seems to be hybrid, at best, and lately it has resorted to outsourcing as a way to make sure it stays competitive. So, it's doing pretty much what many other ordinary companies do. Which really makes you wonder, if this is the largest company that has managed to use only a partial cooperatist ownership model, is this model really viable? Is it really an example of viable cooperativism?

Does it really work outside of the Basque Country or is its domestic "success" (the company has survived for long enough to prove it can work, but it has lately done so by outsourcing) just the result of cultural cohesion? Because, when faced with the criticism that they are not extending ownership rights to foreigners that they employ in outsourced facilities, they claim that there is a cultural barrier that prevents them from doing that. Maybe such a model only works in limited cases, in cultural communities which are very cohesive and tightly knit, such as the Basque community.

I haven't been able to find any example of a big medicine manufacturer, for example. Most other examples seem to be credit unions, grocery shops, farmers' coops, etc. Which might indicate that on a small scale, they can work. But once they reach the size of Mondragon and operate in manufacturing sectors, things get a lot more difficult, since you are competing in a low margin, high throughput market. Might also explain why there's no major carmaker that uses this kind of structure either.

[deleted_user0]

It was supposed to be a thread about the 2020 Democratic Primary, but since it got infested with spam, I eventually moved the original post to that Capitalism thread.

So, now it's just spam, hopefully a mod will delete it.

Too bad you guys didn't stick with that decision of keeping "the basement" perma-IP-banned. They never did anything on this forum but shitpost. Jerom was right, after all.

[deleted_user]

Finally, it's raining, and the crow shit on our grill is getting washed.

[spanky4ever]

@Dolan thx for the link to fifty by fifty in your last post. Lots of good read, and 99% of the findings there, makes an argument for worker coops stronger. Your attacks are like one mosqito bite, even if you draw the conclution that its a bad idea. Stange ^^

[Dolan]

I don't draw any conclusion. I tried to give an as balanced as possible account of this type of corporation based on the small amount of information I could find. I admit I focused on identifying sources that actually quoted some data, not just opinions and impressions. There just aren't much data on Mondragon that could give you a non-biased perspective on whether this economic model is viable or not.

I think I left the conclusion mostly open-ended. I specified I think this type of economic model might work on a small scale, given that bigger enterprises like Mondragon needed to use good ole outsourcing to stay competitive. Their model is not exactly purely cooperativist. It's hybrid.

[spanky4ever]

I don't draw any conclusion. I tried to give an as balanced as possible account of this type of corporation based on the small amount of information I could find. I admit I focused on identifying sources that actually quoted some data, not just opinions and impressions. There just aren't much data on Mondragon that could give you a non-biased perspective on whether this economic model is viable or not.

I think I left the conclusion mostly open-ended. I specified I think this type of economic model might work on a small scale, given that bigger enterprises like Mondragon needed to use good ole outsourcing to stay competitive. Their model is not exactly purely cooperativist. It's hybrid.

You tried to find any flawes and did a miserable job, that is what you did

[spanky4ever]

Back to the start, who is honestly the ppl person in this race:
https://youtu.be/ftJPLVSADX0

Fuck you Biden, corp shill is what you are

[fightinfrenchman]

I'm just hoping when a bunch of losers drop out after the debates Hillary joins in and sweeps the nomination from them all

[spanky4ever]

one more to prove to you how Biden is a shill for the rich

https://youtu.be/fvLJUOqRlfg

[fightinfrenchman]

Impossible to imagine that TYT would take something out of context

[spanky4ever]

nothing will change with Biden, that is his slogan, Now you tell me, is the status quo good enough?

[spanky4ever]

Impossible to imagine that TYT would take something out of context

how about you bring us the right context then, the context being fundraising for Biden with very rich donors. Could be interesting

[gibson]

Go Biden!

[fightinfrenchman]

@spanky4ever If you thought Hillary was "moderate" and "corporate," just wait until you get President Biden!

[spanky4ever]

@spanky4ever If you thought Hillary was "moderate" and "corporate," just wait until you get President Biden!

I know, and it is a scary thought.

[Dolan]

You tried to find any flawes and did a miserable job, that is what you did

Is it really that hard to deal with evidence that Mondragon uses outsourced labour in poorer countries and those workers do not enjoy any co-ownership rights? And that most of their sales right now are from the global markets?
They sound like most other global firms, tbh. It seems equality and co-ownership are only for the few back home.

[Goodspeed]

nothing will change with Biden, that is his slogan

Game losing
I'm calling it now. Biden isn't gonna win the primary

[spanky4ever]

You tried to find any flawes and did a miserable job, that is what you did

Is it really that hard to deal with evidence that Mondragon uses outsourced labour in poorer countries and those workers do not enjoy any co-ownership rights? And that most of their sales right now are from the global markets?
They sound like most other global firms, tbh. It seems equality and co-ownership are only for the few back home.

I know they have some plants outside Spain, that are not owned by the workers there. I really do not know how many that is though, and I guess you don't know it eighter. If you have any numbers, please share.
If you were right on your claim, I guess Mondragon would NOT be labeled the biggest worker-owned coop in the world
I do know that most of their sales are to global markets, after all, its a big cooperation.

[spanky4ever]

Maybe Trump has more sense, after all. He overturned Pompeo and Bolton eagerness to bomb Iran.
https://youtu.be/BTeL0q5tMzk

just a tiny little more sense and I hope that is enough to avoid a disastrous war with Iran
Guess he found out that the drone was shot down on Iranian airspace

[fightinfrenchman]

He was the one who presumably authorized the strike that he pulled away from, so he doesn't deserve credit for that. He's also responsible for pulling out of the deal and putting people like Pompeo in his administration to begin with

[Goodspeed]

Maybe Trump has more sense, after all. He overturned Pompeo and Bolton eagerness to bomb Iran.

just a tiny little more sense and I hope that is enough to avoid a disastrous war with Iran
Guess he found out that the drone was shot down on Iranian airspace

Are you really falling for his "I'm a hero for stopping this war" act?
He pulled out of the nuclear deal, he wasted no time to blame Iran for the oil tanker business and he's been tweeting shit about how Iran is evil for a while now. He also authorized this strike before aborting it. He tweeted "Iran made a very big mistake!" on Thursday.
That's incompetence at best.

[spanky4ever]

Maybe Trump has more sense, after all. He overturned Pompeo and Bolton eagerness to bomb Iran.

just a tiny little more sense and I hope that is enough to avoid a disastrous war with Iran
Guess he found out that the drone was shot down on Iranian airspace

Are you really falling for his "I'm a hero for stopping this war" act?
He pulled out of the nuclear deal, he wasted no time to blame Iran for the oil tanker business and he's been tweeting shit about how Iran is evil for a while now. He also authorized this strike before aborting it. He tweeted "Iran made a very big mistake!" on Thursday.
That's incompetence at best.

NO
I am just glad he pulled off the air strikes for now. I really hope that it will not come to war I realize that the propaganda war has been going on, for some time now, and the mainstream media is propping it up. You know, mainstream media has been bashing Trump ever since he came to office, with the exception of him dropping MOBs, and warmongering with Iran. It is just really, really crazy shit

[spanky4ever]

EVERYBODY with more than one brain cell should see through the USA warmongering machine by now, and this is why I am supporting Tulsi Gabbard