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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Goodspeed »

It's so dumb how hung up we can get on minor policy disagreements when it's our shared goal of having affordable education for everyone that really matters. Elections should be about electing someone who shares your values and who will do what they can to defend them while in office, not about every policy proposal being exactly the way you want it. Is anyone actually expecting the next president to get all these wildly progressive ideas implemented in 8 years? Is anyone over the age of 20 really still that naive? Primaries especially shouldn't get into this much detail, because it's going to get people too entrenched and prevent them from voting democrat in the general if their favorite candidate, who they now think is the only viable candidate, isn't the nominee.

I like AOC, but the way she attacked Pete's proposal by basically calling him a republican is so unnecessarily polarizing. You're on the same team. Language like that is going to divide an already divided democratic party even more. It's also missing the point of Pete's typically more moderate approach to policy, which is to be less divisive and more politically realistic. Commenting on the policy itself without addressing those points is intentionally misleading.

We're in the middle of a campaign, so it's all fair game, but I think this aggressive and intentionally divisive approach is going to end up being counter productive. Russian trolls are probably rejoicing at yet another opportunity to divide the democratic party, and when Russian trolls get excited about your statements maybe you should shut up and think about what you're doing.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by n0el »

She didn’t call him a Republican. She said he’s using right wing language to attack free college proposals. She isn’t wrong. Her point is we need to unify our messaging, and stop attacking left wing policies by perpetuating right wing attacks. Do you disagree @Goodspeed ?
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

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Post by Goodspeed »

bittersalt123 wrote:My main point is why waste time telling people your political views? People have their mind made up already. When different views collide it can lead to violence.
Because hearing other perspectives is valuable, in many ways. If you're not interested in that, what are you doing here?
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

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n0el wrote:She didn’t call him a Republican. She said he’s using right wing language to attack free college proposals. She isn’t wrong. Her point is we need to unify our messaging, and stop attacking left wing policies by perpetuating right wing attacks. Do you disagree @Goodspeed ?
Republicans have nothing to do with this. The GOP wouldn't even think about let alone discuss any policy that even comes close to what Pete is proposing (which, by the way, has been proposed by Sanders himself in 2017, except with a cutoff point at $125k instead of $100k https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom ... introduced). And Pete isn't "attacking" anything, at least not in the video that prompted AOC's response. He only made a point about how he doesn't want to make promises he can't keep. To me, that kind of message is refreshing considering no one ever keeps their promises when elected. Sanders or Warren sure as hell wouldn't. Pretending Pete is the one "attacking" anything here is quite backwards.

It's completely normal to have a discussion about policy, that's not perpetuating right wing attacks. This "my way or I'm going to call you a republican" (read "my way or the highway") attitude on the other hand is incredibly divisive and stops any normal discourse right in its tracks. By supporting it, you're actually perpetuating something much more dangerous: Attempts by the GOP and Russia to divide the democratic party so much that half of it won't come out to vote in the general.

I was guilty of this myself in 2016, when Hillary couldn't do a single thing right in my mind. How did I fall into that trap? Because of this kind of language, expressed by bots, Russian trolls and people like me who fell into the same trap. Considering the difference between Sanders' proposal in 2017 and Pete's now is only the $25k in the cutoff point, I can't find any justification for the language used by AOC.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by n0el »

You are using one video which has ignored his messaging on the topic for the last few months, which he is SPECIFICALLY using that argument against Warren and Sanders' proposals. It isn't just that, its a systemic issue that she is going after. Just look at the dumb ass arguments that the Ear makes attacking things like a jobs guarantee, or look at the centrist arguments against Medicare for All. Where did those originate? Oh ya, in the right wing.

So yes, I agree that policy differences and their viability are semantics, but we should agree that disingenuous attacks are the worse thing possible, especially when they parrot the Brietbart talking points.
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United States of America bittersalt123
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by bittersalt123 »

Goodspeed wrote:
bittersalt123 wrote:My main point is why waste time telling people your political views? People have their mind made up already. When different views collide it can lead to violence.
Because hearing other perspectives is valuable, in many ways. If you're not interested in that, what are you doing here?
I said it's fun but what i'm asking is what's the point of it? I see politicians just lie and they have a lie rate of 90% and we're all aware of the different arguments at this point lol
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by bittersalt123 »

fightinfrenchman wrote:
bittersalt123 wrote:
fightinfrenchman wrote:@bittersalt123 Number C88: Gimmick Puppet Disaster Leo
You triggered bro? :lol:
Honestly all I can think about is why would somebody liebe Wildwood
At least GoodSpeed counter argued me instead of being a total dipshit and just calling me an idiot. I may be wrong but that's okay?
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Goodspeed »

bittersalt123 wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
bittersalt123 wrote:My main point is why waste time telling people your political views? People have their mind made up already. When different views collide it can lead to violence.
Because hearing other perspectives is valuable, in many ways. If you're not interested in that, what are you doing here?
I said it's fun but what i'm asking is what's the point of it?
Disregarding that fun alone is a great reason to do something, you're expanding your mind if you open it up to other perspectives.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by bittersalt123 »

Goodspeed wrote:
bittersalt123 wrote:
Show hidden quotes
I said it's fun but what i'm asking is what's the point of it?
Disregarding that fun alone is a great reason to do something, you're expanding your mind if you open it up to other perspectives.
Okay so this is purely academic. I guess there are open minded people on this earth but from my experience people just wanna get all hostile over politics and don't want to hear it. I couldn't even wear my MAGA hat without problems I bet. It's almost like people just hate Trump and won't hear it XD

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/03/ ... gain-hats/
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Goodspeed »

Passions run high when it comes to Trump, and for good reason. If you're out there trying to spread debunked conspiracy theories, trying to convince people Trump has the "best brain" and denying the effects of human-caused climate change, I can imagine them not wanting to hear it. That's not a valid perspective on reality, rather the denial of it. It feels like arguing with Fox news instead of the person you're actually talking to.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by bittersalt123 »

I still like to see the democrats actually beat someone that says "Make America Great Again" Ya Trump is batshit crazy but at least he cares about America and does his best to stop the democrats from raising our taxes to hell.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Goodspeed »

@Amsel_ Maybe this article does a better job explaining why people like Pete than I did: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/30/us/p ... dates.html
At least, it explains the difference in tone between him and Sanders/Warren.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by fightinfrenchman »

@bittersalt123 This may not be the thread for you
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by fightinfrenchman »

n0el wrote:
fightinfrenchman wrote:@bittersalt123 You're dumb

@n0el Rich people don't need handouts
Do you think any rich person is going to public school anyways?
Yes, because we're not talking about just the .01% here.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by n0el »

fightinfrenchman wrote:
n0el wrote:
fightinfrenchman wrote:@bittersalt123 You're dumb

@n0el Rich people don't need handouts
Do you think any rich person is going to public school anyways?
Yes, because we're not talking about just the .01% here.
How is it any different or why should it be any different than free public education at lower levels? Your argument would apply to that as well. Should those laws be rewritten to be means tested?
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United States of America bittersalt123
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by bittersalt123 »

fightinfrenchman wrote:@bittersalt123 This may not be the thread for you
I decide what threads are for me.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by fightinfrenchman »

$100k/year is nothing. The minimum wage should be $250k/year

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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Goodspeed »

This would all sound a lot less ridiculous if Sanders himself hadn't proposed the same fucking thing 2 years ago, except with the cutoff at 125k. Like, ok, 100k is a working family but 125k is rich?
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by n0el »

Can you post the source for that Goodspeed? I don’t remember it, and my short search for it found nothing.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by n0el »

Oh I get it now. Just a bill that was introduced. Not his policy position from the last primary.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Goodspeed »

Perhaps a better way to gauge what might actually happen if he's elected, considering he doesn't get to do whatever he wants. If the cutoff point is as indefensible as AOC is making it sound, why did Sanders introduce that bill? It's almost like political viability is a thing. Ignoring this point while attacking the proposal is bad faith. There's plenty to say for political pragmatism over idealism, and as long as that's ignored these attacks are never going to stick except with people who are already going to vote Sanders. It's just being divisive for the sake of it.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Amsel_ »

fightinfrenchman wrote:$100k/year is nothing. The minimum wage should be $250k/year

I'm glad she pointed this out. The traditional mindset of the democrats tends to be super unfriendly to the middle-class. It's why they've lost more elections than they've won this century.

2000 R
2002 R
2004 R
2006 D
2008 D
2010 R
2012 D
2014 R
2016 R
2018 D

Republicans won six.
Democrats won four.

But in the prior 20 years

1978 R
1980 R
1982 D
1984 R
1986 D
1988 R
1990 D
1992 D
1994 R
1996 D
1998 D

Democrats won six.
Republicans won five.

Their strategy of appealing to poorer-folk and certain industries (healthcare and housing) worked pretty well in the past; they controlled the House of Representatives for like 66 out of 70 years. But it's clear that recent demographic shifts have moved the electorate towards one where the middle-class acts as a tie breaker, and the middle-class knows that the republicans at least aren't going to actively try and screw them over. What's funny is that progressives have been doing the most to try and appeal to the middle-class. You have stuff like Warren promising not to raise taxes, etc. Meanwhile, it's neoliberals that pass legislation which hurts the democrats' relationship with the middle-class, like Obamacare, which left the middle-class out to dry. Yet, going by the 2018 results, the middle-class seems to prefer neoliberal style democrats.

The current strategy of the democrats is basically just hoping that racial demographics will eventually tilt the scales in their favor, permanently; and that zoomers and millenials will all grow up to be socialists. This strategy is rather dangerous in the long-term. Remember, the republicans already cracked the New Deal Coalition. They also cracked the "Solid South." I see no reason the republicans won't eventually find a way to break the demographic and age issue at some point in the future. So if the democrats really want to dominate the country for the next 20 or so years, they need to find a way to bring the middle-class into their coalition. Welfare to poor people isn't going to do that. Radical social change isn't going to do that. Affordable education, affordable healthcare plans that people themselves choose, reasonable taxes, and a solid economy will.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Republicans have won the popular vote in just one presidential election in the last 30 years
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary

Post by Amsel_ »

fightinfrenchman wrote:Republicans have won the popular vote in just one presidential election in the last 30 years
Based and play-to-win-pilled.

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