Game of Thrones Season 8

[fightinfrenchman]

Yes it does

[deleted_user0]

no. it's probably not even real beef :O

[fightinfrenchman]

Yes it is

[deleted_user0]

prove it.

[fightinfrenchman]

I'm not being hostile!

[UpMySleeves]

I believe the moment Daenerys got on her dragon, after seeing her "axe riders" get rekt, the plan derailed into the chaos that we saw. Also, the ditch seemed a bit narrow, looked like it took 5 zombies to make a small bridge across it.

[gibson]

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Well the dothraki I understand cause the only way they know how to fight is charging on horseback, but yea everyone else Idk why they didn't just hold the castle

Just admit it was a bad episode

I didn't think it was and by the only objective standard we have, whether or not most people enjoyed It, it was a great episode.

many people enjoy mcdonalds too, doesn't make it a good burger.

How's that relevant? We have other objective standards for measuring a "good" burger. What other objective standard do we have for measuring art or cinema than whether or not people like it?

[deleted_user0]

Show hidden quotes

Well the dothraki I understand cause the only way they know how to fight is charging on horseback, but yea everyone else Idk why they didn't just hold the castle

Just admit it was a bad episode

I didn't think it was and by the only objective standard we have, whether or not most people enjoyed It, it was a great episode.

many people enjoy mcdonalds too, doesn't make it a good burger.

How's that relevant? We have other objective standards for measuring a "good" burger. What other objective standard do we have for measuring art or cinema than whether or not people like it?

Do we? Please tell me what they are then? Afaik, it's relevant because they're similar. It's both subjective, and whether or not a lot of people like it, doesnt really measure anything of intrinsic value.

And while we maybe don't have an objective measure for what makes good or bad art, we do have a few parameters for what makes good or bad storytelling. A poorly told story might still be entertaining, it's just usually less entertaining than a well told story. And from a story telling angle, a lot went wrong last episode, but also just the entire season in general, and perhaps even a few seasons before that. I mean, we're supposed to have a gathering of the smartest minds (Sansa, Tyrion, Davos) and ablest warriors (Jon, Jorah, Grey Worm, Jaime etc) and they can't even conduct their trade properly, while they've been masterminding countless battles perfectly fine before that. Making your characters mysteriously incompetent just to create drama might be entertaining, it's also inexplicable, which unless your story revolves around defying logic, usually means it's poor storytelling. And there are other examples such as that as well. Also, not having Sansa face off with her dead kin (either her father, brother or aunt, as I'm not sure whether her mother is there) was a huge missed opportunity).I mean not everything was bad, you're probably right that people who are dissappointed with it are too critical, whereas those who liked it are too hyped.

[Superfly47]

The plan was always to kill the Night King. Daenerys and Jon went straight for him with their dragons. Bran luring the Night King to him was also part of the plan. The writers could have made this clear, had Arya hiding on top of the tree above Bran waiting for the Night King. The defending force would have been explicitly on buying time mode in the castle.

The writers decided against this, they wanted to create an "All is lost" moment and then suddenly win. They also needed to come up with ways for action to be different for a full hour of fighting. I think saving the Dothraki to be used to attack from the sides when the dead were trying to climb the walls would have been better drama than just dying right away and actually made some strategic sense.

[Kawapasaka]

What other objective standard do we have for measuring art or cinema than whether or not people like it?

There are some sort of "objective" standards for measuring the quality of story-telling, stuff like plotholes, character inconsistencies, "show don't tell" rule, etc. are pretty cut-and-dried. Basic measures that can be demonstrably proven. Of course ultimately some people may not agree on the importance of these measures, so really there is no true objective standard when it comes to art.
But regardless, why do you need one? Is it really necessary for a discussion to take place? And like I said before, popular opinion being treated as fact is deeply flawed logic. You're essentially saying "the majority of people can never be wrong", and if you can't see the pitfall there I don't know what to tell you.

[deleted_user]

Im reading Dune right now and can't help but feel the supreme lack of tact in killing the NK compared to the set ups in that book.

[n0el]

Im reading Dune right now and can't help but feel the supreme lack of tact in killing the NK compared to the set ups in that book.

I would be shocked if the ASOIAF books kill the night king in a remotely similar way.

[deleted_user]

Im reading Dune right now and can't help but feel the supreme lack of tact in killing the NK compared to the set ups in that book.

I would be shocked if the ASOIAF books kill the night king in a remotely similar way.

If they ever get written, they won't.

GRRM is on record having say it won't end dues ex machina style disintegrationlike LotR.

But LotR isn't really dues ex machina. It's so much different from Season 8 ep. 3 in every way, but that doesn't matter. This episode was bad because D&D is bad.

[n0el]

Im reading Dune right now and can't help but feel the supreme lack of tact in killing the NK compared to the set ups in that book.

I would be shocked if the ASOIAF books kill the night king in a remotely similar way.

If they ever get written, they won't.

GRRM is on record having say it won't end dues ex machina style disintegrationlike LotR.

But LotR isn't really dues ex machina. It's so much different from Season 8 ep. 3 in every way, but that doesn't matter. This episode was bad because D&D is bad.

Winds will get written ADOS probably won't.

[tramiz]

In General the series has disappointed in the end. The first 3 seasons were promising.

[deleted_user0]

yesterday I thought of some small ways that imo wouldve made the episode better.

starting from the moment that Dany saves Jon from the freshly resurrected dead, Jon says: Bran. Dany tells him to go. The defenses of Winterfell have been breached, and the heroes are scattered across the castle. At the same time that Jon realises he has to go save Bran, Arya realises the same. The Hound and Beric go with her. Elsewhere we have Brienne, Podrick, Thormund and Jaime retreating before newly revived zombies. Greyworm is leading whatever is left of the Unsullied, still fighting to hold a portion of the wall. Davos and Melisandre have dissapeared.

Dany is attacked by zombies, Jorah comes out to save her. Greyworm sees it happening, realizing that the dead have been revived, he makes a connection. There are dead people in the crypts. He's forced to choose between his duty to his Queen, and his love for Missandei. He chooses Missandei and leads the unsullied to the crypts. (OR possibly he chooses his Duty, and leads his unsullied to help Jorah fight off the zombies, in which case possibly Ghost could go into the crypts to help the civilians fight off the dead there). In the crypts, the dead have risen as well. We have the scene between Tyrion and Sansa (which was good), then they stand up to face the wights, and it's headless Ned (was he buried there?") or Rickon.

Jaime falls behind and struggles to keep up with the others. Brienne sees Jaime struggling with his one hand, goes to help him but is overwhelmed on her way to him by a new wave of zombies. Seeing Brienne fall sends Thormund and Podrick, as well as Jaime, into a fighting rage and they help her. Will they get to her in time?

Arya, the Hound and Beric fight their way through the castle toward the Godwood. Beric sacrifices himself in order to let arya escape. The hound saves Beric and carries him into a room. Turns out, Davos and Melisandre have been hiding there. Beric is dying, dead. The Hound wants to go after Arya, but Melisandre stops him: She refers to Beric, asking: How many times do you think the Lord of Light has brought him back? The Hound says he doesn't know, what does it matter? Melisandre says: He won't be brought back anymore, his purpose has been served. And so has yours, there's nothing we can do now.

Jon is sad when he sees zombie Lyanna Mormont, and he kills her with pity and respect for her memory. He's on his way to the godswood, but then gets blocked by the ice dragon.

Meanwhile, we see Arya sneaking past all the zombies (like she did in the library), and she makes her way into the godswood. Just before she gets there, she meets Gendry who is lost, and he comes with her. They arrive in time to help Theon, who's almost overwhelmed by the wights. Then the wights stop fighting and walk off to make a circle, the first white walkers arrive. Bran snaps out of his vision. He tells Theon he's a good man. Then he turns to Arya, referring to the prophecy Melisandre made in the past: Brown eyes, green eyes, blue eyes, you will shut them all forever. Arya is surprised and wants to know how Bran knows this, he wasn't there, right? Bran ignores her, asking if she still has the dagger he gave her a while ago, in the exact same spot? She shows it. He says good. Then the Night king shows up, Theon charges him, gets killed. The Night King attacks Bran, Arya and Gendry defend him. Arya manages to stab the night king with the dagger, but he doesn't die, although he's hurt, and he sends her flying. He then rips the dagger out of him. Gendry attacks the Night King to defend Bran, but he fails. The Night King stabs him with the dagger and throws him to the side. The Night King walks towards Bran. In the back, we see Arya taking the dagger out of Gendry's chest. She jumps the Night King who seemingly isn't watching, but he turns around and grabs her by the throat, however, Arya drops the blade into her other hand and stabs him (like in the show). This time the knife does the trick, it seems you need king's blood to kill a Night King.

The last part can also be done without Gendry if Arya isn't supposed to be Azor Azai wielding Lightbringer.

[deleted_user]

My vote is for 60 minutes of airborn dragon fight in that fantastically lighted backdrop of cloud, ice, and mist.

[Kawapasaka]

I believe that the episode shouldn't have ended with the army of the dead threat being completely vanquished, but if it absolutely had to, it could've been handled so much better. Even if the Night King died in the same dumb way at the end, there could have been an hour of fantastic, tense, exciting television beforehand. Instead it was just "they're losing, they're losing, they're losing, they're losing, they're all about to die! oh wait no they all survive yay!"

Firstly, they should've opened with something smart instead of making it look completely hopeless from the get-go. Some dragon strafing, trebuchets fire-bombing from a defensible position, massed archer volleys, barricades designed to stem/funnel the horde, etc. Arm the Dothraki with bows and keep them on the flanks to slow down encirclement attempts. Show these tactics having great effect at first. "Look, our heroes prepared intelligently and it's paying off." This would also be a good opportunity to show us that the characters who planned these combined arms tactics are smart and capable, instead of just repeatedly telling us that they are and expecting us to believe it. I think Tyrion should've been involved in planning and overseeing a good deal of this as he did at the Blackwater, instead of just sitting around in the crypts doing nothing. Anyway, show that the defenders are doing well and make it look like they stand a fighting chance. Tension is a two way street - of course you can't just have the heroes winning the whole time, but you can't expect the audience to stay on the edge of their seats if the villain is having no issues whatsoever. After some tough fighting, they get a brief moment of respite as the NK prepares for a renewed assault.

Then, reveal that he has more tactics up his sleeve than just zerg rushing. "Look, he's an intelligent enemy, not just a really great javelin thrower!" Maybe he uses his summon blizzard power to conceal his own dragon's approach, upon which it devastates the defenders' ranged units and artillery and forces the two defending dragons to stop burning the horde and fly around to chase off their former sibling. Now that most of the defenders' ranged capabilities are out of commission, the wight giants are sent in. Several were shown in previous shots of the army, so why not use them all? Arming them with tree trunks as the single one on-screen was (the writers actually took some feedback from the Battle of the Bastards it seems) is a good idea. Have them smash through the barricades instead of the zombie ant bridge shit. Let's say Jon and Dany are still chasing the enemy dragon, but Jon sees the frontal defenses wavering. Naturally being more inclined to protect his home than Dany who is focused on the chase, he veers his dragon back to help deal with the giants. I'm pretty sure the writers are trying to build up a conflict between the two characters for the final few episodes, so this "abandonment" would've helped spur that plot along.

This would also be a good time to show some flanking happening, with the Dothraki on the sides forced to give ground and retreat (or just have them overrun and slaughtered then and there, still would've made them much more useful than they ended up being). Give a bird's eye shot of the castle (from one of Bran's ravens perhaps), showing new fronts opening up around the walls as the wights begin to pile up and scale them (Pretty rudimentary, maybe add some basic siege equipment like big logs functioning as ladders for them to swarm up - remember: they can make giant chains, after all!). This would give different groups of characters something to do instead of clumping them all around the front gate. Show some heroic fighting from Jaime, Brienne, Jorah, Tormund, Beric, Davos, The Hound, etc. leading different groups of men at the besieged areas. Have them give some short inspiring speeches with reference to their own character development. To expand on that earlier point, Bran warging ravens to give the leaders of the defense on the ground a complete picture of the battle would've been a pretty smart use of his abilities. Have him see where reinforcements are needed the most and relay commands accordingly. Seriously, having him actually seem invested in the fight instead of sitting there like "I knew we were gonna win lol" would do wonders for his character as well as add tension. "Look, even god-boy is getting worried, this battle must be tough!"

Now this would leave Dany and Drogon alone with the NK on his ice dragon, and give us the aerial battle we were all waiting for. She meets his eye for a brief second and for the first time well and truly understands the threat, but engages nonetheless. This would be a great character moment showing her courage, as she has never really faced danger completely alone like this before. Back on the front lines, Jon has helped take out most of the giants, but enough damage was done to the defenses around the gate to force a retreat back to the castle walls. Jon takes his dragon to the ground to help cover the retreat, but faces the same problem Drogon did in the actual episode with wights beginning to swarm it (honestly it's a pretty cheap way to take a dragon out of the equation for a bit, but it's kind of necessary and I can't think of any better way at the moment). Cut back to the dragon fight, and it's close. Have them fly high, connect mid-air, and give a long shot of them falling as they desperately claw and bite at each other. How this ends is where I'm really not certain. Like I said earlier, it seems like the writers want to set up a Jon vs Dany conflict for the end-game, so having Drogon die here, setting them up to fight over the remaining dragon, could be interesting. So having both Drogon and the ice dragon die could work I guess. Drogon would kill the ice dragon but get mortally wounded in the process, land back in the castle and have Dany fruitlessly try to tend to his wounds as she did in Mereen. Only this time, instead of roaring at her, he just gives a sad, dying gaze. Again, cheap as it is, it's necessary for the dragons to be taken out of commission for any tense, believable ground fighting to ensue.

The whole crypts ordeal was pretty stupid, but if it had to happen then they should've had Sansa do something. It would be a good callback to her at the Blackwater, except this time far more confident and commanding. Her having seemingly the only dragonglass weapon was also pretty dumb unless there was a very limited supply, so having a small stockpile down there would've made sense. Her stepping up and organising a rag-tag defense of women and children would've been a nice final step for her character, which is supposedly meant to be becoming a great leader. Defending the crypts like this would also be fairly believable since the wights obviously aren't emerging in a fast, overwhelming horde like they are above. Like Umeu said, a moment with undead Rickon could've been interesting. However, he's been completely mind-wiped from the remaining Starks' memories (I don't think he's been mentioned once by anyone since the end of season 6, Arya didn't even ask about him), so it probably would've just been jarring and confusing for the general audience above anything else.

Finally, the front gate is battered down (maybe a remaining giant or some improvised battering ram, doesn't really matter), and we get to see the actual White Walkers get to work, not just their zombie minions. These guys did absolutely nothing in the episode and it was one of the most disappointing things about it. Give them the same cool slow entrance shot, but have them start slaughtering left and right soon after. This provides an excellent opportunity for 1v1s with all the warrior characters. Perhaps they could show small groups of wights dropping dead each time a White Walker is killed, which would spread out the "kill the boss, all the minions drop" trope, and make victory feel ultimately a bit more earned. The majority of secondary (and maybe some primary) character deaths should happen here. Arya could be given a much more believable backstab moment or two against some of them while they're engaged as well. But there are at least 20 or so of them from some shots I vaguely remember, so things finally start to look really bad for the heroes here (instead of during the opening move of the battle).

This is where I think a retreat should've happened. Not exactly sure how it would be logistically possible, some essential characters could escape on Jon's dragon for sure, and perhaps link up with some remaining Northern/Riverlands/Vale forces, then have a giant 3-way battle where they maneuver to pit Cersei against the NK army or something (can't be bothered thinking all that up atm). Or they could just end it there with in a final epic fight against the Night King. Not really bothered with the specifics in this case. Maybe have Bran do some psychic shit to distract him. Have him sustain some damage first and kill plenty of characters before finally being taken down, instead of dying instantly like a bitch. Add some noble sacrifices. Just generally make the episode end with a sense of loss by killing characters people care about instead of, well, Theon.


Anyway, that was a fun thought experiment. I hadn't even conceived of a quarter of the things I ended up writing down when I started typing.

[Sargsyan]

Just finished watching the 3rd episode, it was shit.
Overrated show

[deleted_user0]

if this is true https://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainm ... ight-king/ it does redeem the episode a little. It makes sense

[rsy]

idk how u guys didn't like the episode. arya droptricking the nightking is one of my new favorite scenes

[Superfly47]

if this is true https://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainm ... ight-king/ it does redeem the episode a little. It makes sense

The scene of Jon yelling and then the night king were both in slow motion. It took 14 seconds of screen time between Jon yelling and Arya attacking the night king. This would have been just a few seconds of real time, not nearly enough for Arya to get from on the castle to Bran. The only way it would work is if Arya was suddenly given the power to run 100 meters a second, in which case she wouldn't need Jon to distract the dragon since she'd be gone before the dragon could open its mouth.

The issue many have here is the writers went for drama and shock instead of strategy and common sense. Bran was a trap to lure the night king, the writers could have taken the next, obvious step for a trap, which was to have Arya hiding with dragon glass, waiting to kill the night king when he arrived.

The writers decided against having an actual trap plan. Instead they wanted people to think all hope was lost and it was a stroke of brilliance for Arya to realize she needed to kill the night king to win. If the writers had Arya waiting as a trap, instead of dread about impending loss, viewers would have been waiting with anticipation for the night king to arrive.

It would be like if in AOE3 there was a Daimyo that if destroyed would cause all Japanese units to be lost. The opponent lures the Daimyo to a secluded spot but no has plan to actually kill the Daimyo when it arrives there.

[Horsemen]

if this is true https://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainm ... ight-king/ it does redeem the episode a little. It makes sense

The scene of Jon yelling and then the night king were both in slow motion. It took 14 seconds of screen time between Jon yelling and Arya attacking the night king. This would have been just a few seconds of real time, not nearly enough for Arya to get from on the castle to Bran. The only way it would work is if Arya was suddenly given the power to run 100 meters a second, in which case she wouldn't need Jon to distract the dragon since she'd be gone before the dragon could open its mouth.

The issue many have here is the writers went for drama and shock instead of strategy and common sense. Bran was a trap to lure the night king, the writers could have taken the next, obvious step for a trap, which was to have Arya hiding with dragon glass, waiting to kill the night king when he arrived.

The writers decided against having an actual trap plan. Instead they wanted people to think all hope was lost and it was a stroke of brilliance for Arya to realize she needed to kill the night king to win. If the writers had Arya waiting as a trap, instead of dread about impending loss, viewers would have been waiting with anticipation for the night king to arrive.

It would be like if in AOE3 there was a Daimyo that if destroyed would cause all Japanese units to be lost. The opponent lures the Daimyo to a secluded spot but no has plan to actually kill the Daimyo when it arrives there.

Tbh I could beat the night king at aoe3

[deleted_user0]

if this is true https://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainm ... ight-king/ it does redeem the episode a little. It makes sense

The scene of Jon yelling and then the night king were both in slow motion. It took 14 seconds of screen time between Jon yelling and Arya attacking the night king. This would have been just a few seconds of real time, not nearly enough for Arya to get from on the castle to Bran. The only way it would work is if Arya was suddenly given the power to run 100 meters a second, in which case she wouldn't need Jon to distract the dragon since she'd be gone before the dragon could open its mouth.

The issue many have here is the writers went for drama and shock instead of strategy and common sense. Bran was a trap to lure the night king, the writers could have taken the next, obvious step for a trap, which was to have Arya hiding with dragon glass, waiting to kill the night king when he arrived.

The writers decided against having an actual trap plan. Instead they wanted people to think all hope was lost and it was a stroke of brilliance for Arya to realize she needed to kill the night king to win. If the writers had Arya waiting as a trap, instead of dread about impending loss, viewers would have been waiting with anticipation for the night king to arrive.

It would be like if in AOE3 there was a Daimyo that if destroyed would cause all Japanese units to be lost. The opponent lures the Daimyo to a secluded spot but no has plan to actually kill the Daimyo when it arrives there.

it's kinda silly though, because the episode before that, i thought they agreed on laying a trap, and that bran was to be bait, in order to draw the night king out, which is also why he had to be only lightly guarded, otherwise he wouldnt come (which doesnt make sense as he could just siege the the place and wait till they ran out of food. or otherwise just swarm it but whatevaaa

[Kawapasaka]

idk how u guys didn't like the episode. arya droptricking the nightking is one of my new favorite scenes

You aren't disappointed even a little? You didn't expect something a bit more climactic after hearing "winter is coming" for 7 seasons and being convinced that the real threat was on its way and was about to make everything else look like a joke? Then it finally comes after years of anticipation and "the long night" turns out to be just a slightly delayed morning?
I wouldn't have minded so much even if it still ended with the same sneak backstab, so long as the army of the dead that's been hyped up for the entirety of the show actually did something impactful first instead of just conveniently de-powering Dany's faction but leaving all the main characters alive just to set up a somewhat believable fight with Cersei.