The Official Mueller report thread

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Re: The Official Mueller report thread

Post by n0el »

Well since Mueller came out and said that the Barr memo was a joke looks like thereā€™s more fire beneath the smoke than anyone gave credit to in the last month. The Russiagate conspirists who came out loud after the Barr memo look like complete idiots now (cough Michael Tracey).
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Re: The Official Mueller report thread

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But Glenn Greenwald assured me that Barr would not act improperly and that he deserved the benefit of the doubt!
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Re: The Official Mueller report thread

Post by Goodspeed »

Dolan wrote:Democrat-leaning media ran tens of stories on Trump's presumed links with Russia, trying to portray him as a president that was remotely controlled by Russia.
There are a ton of links with Russia. Mueller didn't find enough evidence to charge Trump himself, but a lot of other people are facing jailtime over this.
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Re: The Official Mueller report thread

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Goodspeed wrote:
Dolan wrote:Democrat-leaning media ran tens of stories on Trump's presumed links with Russia, trying to portray him as a president that was remotely controlled by Russia.
There are a ton of links with Russia. Mueller didn't find enough evidence to charge Trump himself, but a lot of other people are facing jailtime over this.


There is no level of evidence that could have made Mueller charge Trump with anything
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Re: The Official Mueller report thread

Post by Goodspeed »

Right. I meant not enough evidence to prove a criminal conspiracy*
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Re: The Official Mueller report thread

Post by n0el »

Thereā€™s a Justice Department policy that the President cannot be charged with a crime. So even if Mueller had evidence that Putin was puppeteering him, still no charges.
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Re: The Official Mueller report thread

Post by Goodspeed »

Yeah I meant he didn't find enough evidence to charge him even if he hadn't been president. Makes sense considering he basically runs his shit like it's a crime organization, not specifically directing anyone to do anything illegal but clearly implying it. And he really dislikes it when his lawyers take notes :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBdGOrcUEg8
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Re: The Official Mueller report thread

Post by Dolan »

n0el wrote:Thereā€™s a Justice Department policy that the President cannot be charged with a crime. So even if Mueller had evidence that Putin was puppeteering him, still no charges.

That's true in many countries. Though, typically, in case of charges which qualify as "high treason", I believe the president does not have immunity. Also, if Mueller's investigation would have found hard evidence that Trump personally conspired with foreign powers to win elections, I don't think it would have mattered that the DoJ couldn't have charged him. That would have been a political signal for Congress to start an impeachment procedure.

Also, I'm getting the feeling that Democrats and maybe Mueller himself are trying to make waves right now about the outcome of this investigation precisely because it failed to find hard and direct evidence that would have provided the Congress with a motive for impeachment. And since that failed, they might be trying to save face by saying "wait a minute, whatabout his attempts to stop this?". So it all looks like an attempt to recover from this failure by diverting people's attention from the factual failure of the investigation and channeling that attention onto a new subject: hey, orange man is still bad, even though we have no evidence. It's an age-old method in politics to save face from a political bet that blew in your face spectacularly. The good ole whatabout the other bad thing.

It's clear that Mueller wanted the public report to let a shadow of doubt hanging over Trump, precisely because he failed to catch him red-handed.
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Re: The Official Mueller report thread

Post by n0el »

It's not immunity, its a line of thinking that the congress has the power and not the judicial system. Mueller made it pretty clear that Trump obstructed justice, and that it is the responsibility of Congress to charge that because he can't do it.
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Re: The Official Mueller report thread

Post by Dolan »

Well, yeah, which doesn't even make sense. If Mueller failed to find evidence of collusion, why did Trump even try to obstruct? Maybe collusion did exist but evidence of it cannot be produced, so Trump's attempt to stop the investigation is an indirect proof that he felt they could have found something.

Or maybe it's just a sign of his "post-truth" way of seeing how things get done in society: ie, it doesn't matter whether it's true, it matters whether they can produce anything that makes you look guilty.

Either way, Trump probably regrets now putting pressure on this investigation, given its failure to prove collusion with Russia.
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Re: The Official Mueller report thread

Post by Goodspeed »

Impartiolan strikes again.
They're making waves because Barr failed to correctly inform the people about Mueller's conclusions on obstruction. His conclusion very clearly and explicitly was not that Trump didn't obstruct justice, and reading between the lines I think it's actually pretty clear that Mueller found plenty of evidence of obstruction and wished to leave it to political institutions to decide what to do with this. Barr's summary stated that Trump didn't obstruct justice. Saying Mueller is "making waves" for any reason other than this discrepancy, you are once again sounding like right-wing media.
If Mueller failed to find evidence of collusion, why did Trump even try to obstruct?
Two options:
1. He's dumb.
2. There is evidence, it just wasn't found.

There's a difference between the thing that obviously happened (collusion), and a criminal conspiracy involving Trump. That difference may have eluded Trump, causing him to try to obstruct the investigation.
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Re: The Official Mueller report thread

Post by Dolan »

Goodspeed wrote:His conclusion very clearly and explicitly was not that Trump didn't obstruct justice, and reading between the lines I think it's actually pretty clear that Mueller found plenty of evidence of obstruction and wished to leave it to political institutions to decide what to do with this. Barr's summary stated that Trump didn't obstruct justice. Saying Mueller is "making waves" for any reason other than this discrepancy, you are once again sounding like right-wing media.
Well, I need to play the devil's advocate here, because otherwise all these topics sound like nothing but a leftwing hugbox. That doesn't mean that I like or support Trump. If you have the time and patience to search my past posts, you'll probably find plenty of them in which I wiped the floor with both Trump and H Clinton, whom I both considered unfit for the role.
While it's obvious that Marr is Trump's tool, I thought this investigation was only about the subject of collusion with Russia, not any other topic. So Marr may have made those statements in an attempt to spell it out for the public opinion what did Mueller's negative outcome mean. And probably it was also an obsequious move on his part to show Trump he's worth the bone he's been thrown.
If Mueller failed to find evidence of collusion, why did Trump even try to obstruct?

Two options:
1. He's dumb.
2. There is evidence, it just wasn't found.
There's a difference between the thing that obviously happened (collusion), and a criminal conspiracy involving Trump. That difference may have eluded Trump, causing him to try to obstruct the investigation.
I already made point 2. On point 1, he is brutal and simplistic, but I'm not sure he lacks political instinct. I think it's more likely that his "post-truth" outlook on the world prompted him to try to stop the investigation. He thought the whole thing was made to produce anything that made him look bad, since he knows people don't read hundreds of pages of reports. What matters is what the media say about it, what pundits say, the executive summary of the whole thing. And he knew he doesn't control that.
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Re: The Official Mueller report thread

Post by n0el »

Dolan wrote:Well, yeah, which doesn't even make sense. If Mueller failed to find evidence of collusion, why did Trump even try to obstruct? Maybe collusion did exist but evidence of it cannot be produced, so Trump's attempt to stop the investigation is an indirect proof that he felt they could have found something.

Or maybe it's just a sign of his "post-truth" way of seeing how things get done in society: ie, it doesn't matter whether it's true, it matters whether they can produce anything that makes you look guilty.

Either way, Trump probably regrets now putting pressure on this investigation, given its failure to prove collusion with Russia.


Iā€™ve seen this argument a lot, and it is the basis for Barrā€™s memo. It makes no sense though. If I killed someone, and thereā€™s tons of circumstantial evidence suggesting my guilt. Then the police find out that itā€™s probably on video from a security system but I destroy the tapes before they can see them. I am clearly not guilty of anything right? Because the circumstantial evidence canā€™t convict me and since thereā€™s no underlying crime, there canā€™t be a coverup.
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Re: The Official Mueller report thread

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybvmu7kM8z0

"Obama knew"

Uploaded by the official Trump channel. Interesting to say the least.

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Re: The Official Mueller report thread

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Re: The Official Mueller report thread

Post by Dolan »

Is there like anyone in the US who is not aligned with the interests of one of the two parties? It seems to me they're having some kind of a civil war even inside their institutions.

Every lil move or institutional decision is politicised or instrumentalised for political ends.

The civil war never ended in the USA, lol.
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Re: The Official Mueller report thread

Post by Goodspeed »

It's not a war, it's people disagreeing with each other...
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Re: The Official Mueller report thread

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Re: The Official Mueller report thread

Post by Jam »

A civil war that's actually civil. Good job America.
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Re: The Official Mueller report thread

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

What's so civil about war anyways?
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Re: The Official Mueller report thread

Post by Dolan »

kami_ryu wrote:Literally people dying in trenches civil war.

Literally, if you think of Charlottesville.
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Re: The Official Mueller report thread

Post by fightinfrenchman »

I was skeptical before but I now think we should start impeachment.
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Re: The Official Mueller report thread

Post by Jam »

fightinfrenchman wrote:I was skeptical before but I now think we should start impeachment.
Do you have enough money to buy your congressperson?
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Re: The Official Mueller report thread

Post by n0el »

Tom Steyer does
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Re: The Official Mueller report thread

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Jam wrote:
fightinfrenchman wrote:I was skeptical before but I now think we should start impeachment.
Do you have enough money to buy your congressperson?


My congressperson is a Republican so it doesn't matter.
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