Lejend's little corner

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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by lejend »

Dolan wrote:That may have been the case in the past, but the Israeli government has created settlements which are illegal under the Geneva convention and this policy has intensified during the last few years.

I don't see what the relation is between their response to Palestinian terrorism being restrained and the fate of Palestinians, considering that Palestinian civilians are not necessarily to blame for whatever Hamas or other groups are doing. So bringing up this point is kinda moot. How are common Palestinians to blame for what some terrorist groups are committing? On the other hand, you are quick to excuse common Israelis from the actions done by their government.

Nobody proposed ending relations with Israel, the problem is that the current US policy emboldens them to do whatever they want, to continue expanding illegal settlements and basically ruin any possibility of a peaceful solution. So Israel is definitely the side whose actions go against making peace.

I agree that Jews have been convenient scapegoats in history and I agree that an Israeli state is part of the solution, but doing this at the detriment of Palestinians, expelling them from their territories can't lead to a right and peaceful solution. The problem is Israelis (ie, their government and political class) do not want a 2-state solution, they just want Uncle Sam to push Palestinians out and solve the whole thing in a heavy-handed way. That's what is behind the artificial Iran crisis. Trump just wants to associate his name with a forced solution to the Middle East conundrum, that treats the situation as a zero-sum game that he wants Israelis to win. And he knows that as long as Iran supports Palestinians, the conflict won't be solved, so he wants to first put Iran on a leash, make it unable to support Palestinians in any way, then force a solution through that gives Israelis complete victory over Palestinians.


The problem with this narrative is that it's completely biased against Israel and strips the Palestinians of agency and responsibility for their actions. It's based in two presumptions: that the land is Palestinian instead of Israeli or at least disputed, and that the Israeli government wants to continue the conflict or to oppress the Palestinians whereas the Palestinian leadership would immediately accept peaceful coexistence if they could. Neither is remotely close to true, but this isn't the thread for discussing it in detail.

But none of this is relevant to supporting Israel. You can oppose the Israeli government's policies and still support both Israel and the Palestinians. It's not an either/or thing.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by Snuden »

:devil:
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

Horsemen wrote:
Snuden wrote:Trading*

If you call slaughtering innocent peasants 'trading' then sure.

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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by Snuden »

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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by lejend »

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Maximilian Kolbe was a Polish priest who died as prisoner 16770 in Auschwitz, on August 14, 1941.

The story begins on 8 January, 1894 - Raymond Kolbe was born the second son of a poor weaver at Zdunska Wola near Lodz in Poland. In his infancy Raymond seems to have been normally mischievous but one day, after his mother had scolded him for some mischief or other, her words took effect and brought about a radical change in the child's behaviour. Later Raymond explained this change: 'That night I asked the Mother of God what was to become of me. Then she came to me holding two crowns, one white, the other red. She asked if I was willing to accept either of these crowns. The white one meant that I should persevere in purity, and the red that I should become a martyr. I said that I would accept them both.'

Thus early did the child believe and accept that he was destined for martyrdom. His belief in his dream coloured all his future actions.

------------

Kolbe refused to sign a document that would recognize him as a German citizen with his German ancestry and continued to work in his monastery, providing shelter for refugees - including hiding 2,000 Jews from German persecution. After receiving permission to continue his religious publishing, Kolbe's monastery acted as a publishing house again and issued many anti-Nazi German publications.

On February 17, 1941, the monastery was shut down; Kolbe was arrested by the German Gestapo and taken to the Pawiak prison. Three months later, he was transferred to Auschwitz.

------------

One day an SS officer found some of the heaviest planks he could lay hold of and personally loaded them on the Franciscan's back, ordering him to run. When he collapsed, the SS officer kicked him in the stomach and face and had his men give him fifty lashes. When the priest lost consciousness the Nazis threw him in the mud and left him for dead. But his companions managed to smuggle him to the camp infirmary - and he recovered. The doctor, Rudolph Diem, later recalled: 'I can say with certainty that during my four years in Auschwitz, I never saw such a sublime example of the love of God and one's neighbor.'

Prisoners at Auschwitz were slowly and systematically starved, and their pitiful rations were barely enough to sustain a child: one cup of imitation coffee in the morning, and weak soup and half a loaf of bread after work. When food was brought, everyone struggled to get his place and be sure of a portion. Father Maximilian Kolbe however, stood aside in spite of the ravages of starvation, and frequently there would be none left for him. At other times he shared his meager ration of soup or bread with others.

In the harshness of the slaughterhouse Father Kolbe maintained the gentleness of Christ. At night he seldom would lie down to rest. He moved from bunk to bunk, saying: 'I am a Catholic priest. Can I do anything for you?'

A prisoner later recalled how he and several others often crawled across the floor at night to be near the bed of Father Kolbe, to make their confessions and ask for consolation. Father Kolbe pleaded with his fellow prisoners to forgive their persecutors and to overcome evil with good. When he was beaten by the guards, he never cried out. Instead, he prayed for his tormentors.

A Protestant doctor who treated the patients in Block 12 later recalled how Father Kolbe waited until all the others had been treated before asking for help. He constantly sacrificed himself for the others.

------------

In order to discourage escapes, Auschwitz had a rule that if a man escaped, ten men would be killed in retaliation. In July 1941 a man from Kolbe's bunker escaped. The dreadful irony of the story is that the escaped prisoner was later found drowned in a camp latrine, so the terrible reprisals had been exercised without cause. But the remaining men of the bunker were led out.

'The fugitive has not been found!' the commandant Karl Fritsch screamed. 'You will all pay for this. Ten of you will be locked in the starvation bunker without food or water until they die.' The prisoners trembled in terror. A few days in this bunker without food and water, and a man's intestines dried up and his brain turned to fire.

The ten were selected, including Franciszek Gajowniczek, imprisoned for helping the Polish Resistance. He couldn't help a cry of anguish. 'My poor wife!' he sobbed. 'My poor children! What will they do?' When he uttered this cry of dismay, Maximilian stepped silently forward, took off his cap, and stood before the commandant and said, 'I am a Catholic priest. Let me take his place. I am old. He has a wife and children.'

Astounded, the icy-faced Nazi commandant asked, 'What does this Polish pig want?'

Father Kolbe pointed with his hand to the condemned Franciszek Gajowniczek and repeated: 'I am a Catholic priest from Poland; I would like to take his place, because he has a wife and children.'

Observers believed in horror that the commandant would be angered and would refuse the request, or would order the death of both men. The commandant remained silent for a moment. What his thoughts were on being confronted by this brave priest we have no idea. Amazingly, however, he acceded to the request. Apparantly the Nazis had more use for a young worker than for an old one, and was happy to make the exchange. Franciszek Gajowniczek was returned to the ranks, and the priest took his place.

Gajowniczek later recalled:

'I could only thank him with my eyes. I was stunned and could hardly grasp what was going on. The immensity of it: I, the condemned, am to live and someone else willingly and voluntarily offers his life for me - a stranger. Is this some dream?

I was put back into my place without having had time to say anything to Maximilian Kolbe. I was saved. And I owe to him the fact that I could tell you all this. The news quickly spread all round the camp. It was the first and the last time that such an incident happened in the whole history of Auschwitz.

For a long time I felt remorse when I thought of Maximilian. By allowing myself to be saved, I had signed his death warrant. But now, on reflection, I understood that a man like him could not have done otherwise. Perhaps he thought that as a priest his place was beside the condemned men to help them keep hope. In fact he was with them to the last.'‘


Father Kolbe was thrown down the stairs of Building 13 along with the other victims and simply left there to starve. Hunger and thirst soon gnawed at the men. Some drank their own urine, others licked moisture on the dank walls. Maximilian Kolbe encouraged the others with prayers, psalms, and meditations on the Passion of Christ. After two weeks, only four were alive. The cell was needed for more victims, and the camp executioner, a common criminal called Bock, came in and injected a lethal dose of cabolic acid into the left arm of each of the four dying men. Kolbe was the only one still fully conscious and with a prayer on his lips, the last prisoner raised his arm for the executioner. His wait was over...

------------

Romans 5

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.


1 John 3

16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters.


https://streamable.com/wuvh7
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by lejend »

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Take the quiz and see what you get. :|

https://9axes.github.io/
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by supahons »

:flowers: :lol: [spoiler=]Image[/spoiler]
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Re: Lejend's little corner

  • Quote

Post by Horsemen »

lejend wrote:Image

Take the quiz and see what you get. :|

https://9axes.github.io/

> Extreme Militarist
> Fanatic Religious

:hmm:

Deus Vult?
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by Dolan »



Most of those questions are so unspecific, they are unanswerable.

Like: Should the government have a balanced budget or keep a welfare system?

My answer: In what context? Could that government afford to keep a sustainable level of public debt and deficit? Is it a developed country with a high level of debt or a less developed country with a high level of debt? Economies always operate in very specific contexts, not in generic contexts. Some countries can even afford to have a budgetary surplus and a strong welfare system (eg, Germany), whereisyourgodnow.jpg.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by Amsel_ »

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I only did the short version, but there wasn't much nuance in the questions.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by Amsel_ »

I got this on the long version.

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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by fightinfrenchman »

If you're more than 50% assimilationist you're bad
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by deleted_user »

I'll save the trouble - my results you can judge me by, or use to affirm your preconceptions.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by supahons »

Dolan wrote:Most of those questions are so unspecific, they are unanswerable.

Yeah just choose unsure then or try to put it in context of the 9 axes, if possible. If you do the short and the long version and compare them, it should point in some general direction.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by Dolan »

Yeah, so considering how politics is all about policies and policies are always solutions to very specific contexts, I just had to choose Neutral/Unsure on every question. Which kinda rendered the whole test an impressionistic meme with colourful graphs.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by lejend »

Horsemen wrote:> Extreme Militarist
> Fanatic Religious

:hmm:

Deus Vult?


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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by supahons »

Dolan wrote:Yeah, so considering how politics is all about policies and policies are always solutions to very specific contexts, I just had to choose Neutral/Unsure on every question. Which kinda rendered the whole test an impressionistic meme with colourful graphs.

:hmm: great idea [spoiler=example from the quiz]The Internet should be banned[/spoiler]
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by Dolan »

kek
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Dolan wrote:kek


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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by Dolan »

Tourette is tough shit.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by lejend »

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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by spanky4ever »

geesus,
this thread is going everywhere, and nowhere ;) hilarious
Must be the most, wander off thread ever, congrats @Leyend :P
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by spanky4ever »

Snuden wrote:I can totally relate to most of what Spanky is saying, Scandinavia IS the best part in the world to live.
The system used can be very difficult to understand, especially for Americans.

For us, the thought of government corruption is almost unheard of, even though it obviously happen from time to time. When it does happen, it is mostly limited to a minister having an official meeting somewhere in the world, bring his wife and "forget" to pay for the wife's ticket.

We also more or less trust that the government will use the tax money in the best possible way, which will benefit the most people.

Our politicians also seem to actually care about real policies and less about degrading their political opponents.

Something most Scandinavians get a real laugh out of is when the American right wing call us for communists, something which couldn't be further from the truth.
In fact, Scandinavia is among the places in the world where it is most easy to "make it in business", something, which Spanky have provided evidence to several times.


And thank you for this post, you hold the fort when I was away :love: Nicely put Snuden
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by Dolan »

lejend wrote:
Dolan wrote:That may have been the case in the past, but the Israeli government has created settlements which are illegal under the Geneva convention and this policy has intensified during the last few years.

I don't see what the relation is between their response to Palestinian terrorism being restrained and the fate of Palestinians, considering that Palestinian civilians are not necessarily to blame for whatever Hamas or other groups are doing. So bringing up this point is kinda moot. How are common Palestinians to blame for what some terrorist groups are committing? On the other hand, you are quick to excuse common Israelis from the actions done by their government.

Nobody proposed ending relations with Israel, the problem is that the current US policy emboldens them to do whatever they want, to continue expanding illegal settlements and basically ruin any possibility of a peaceful solution. So Israel is definitely the side whose actions go against making peace.

I agree that Jews have been convenient scapegoats in history and I agree that an Israeli state is part of the solution, but doing this at the detriment of Palestinians, expelling them from their territories can't lead to a right and peaceful solution. The problem is Israelis (ie, their government and political class) do not want a 2-state solution, they just want Uncle Sam to push Palestinians out and solve the whole thing in a heavy-handed way. That's what is behind the artificial Iran crisis. Trump just wants to associate his name with a forced solution to the Middle East conundrum, that treats the situation as a zero-sum game that he wants Israelis to win. And he knows that as long as Iran supports Palestinians, the conflict won't be solved, so he wants to first put Iran on a leash, make it unable to support Palestinians in any way, then force a solution through that gives Israelis complete victory over Palestinians.


The problem with this narrative is that it's completely biased against Israel and strips the Palestinians of agency and responsibility for their actions. It's based in two presumptions: that the land is Palestinian instead of Israeli or at least disputed, and that the Israeli government wants to continue the conflict or to oppress the Palestinians whereas the Palestinian leadership would immediately accept peaceful coexistence if they could. Neither is remotely close to true, but this isn't the thread for discussing it in detail.

But none of this is relevant to supporting Israel. You can oppose the Israeli government's policies and still support both Israel and the Palestinians. It's not an either/or thing.
Not sure about that. It seems that, in the past, the Israeli government has funded Hamas, the radical Islamic organisation, because they wanted to discredit any moderate, decent alternative of Palestinian political representation (such as the PLO - the Palestinian Liberation Organisation), in order to make sure the conflict continued and the USA only had one credible partner in talks, Israel. More details about this story here:

https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/2002/0 ... 024445587/

That doesn't quite look like the Israeli government wanted peace, doesn' it?

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