Lejend's little corner

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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by lejend »

I don't want this to turn into a debate thread, man, but I'll give you a response.

Dolan wrote:Not sure about that. It seems that, in the past, the Israeli government has funded Hamas, the radical Islamic organisation, because they wanted to discredit any moderate, decent alternative of Palestinian political representation (such as the PLO - the Palestinian Liberation Organisation), in order to make sure the conflict continued and the USA only had one credible partner in talks, Israel. More details about this story here:

https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/2002/0 ... 024445587/

That doesn't quite look like the Israeli government wanted peace, doesn' it?


That bolded claim doesn't hold up to scrutiny, it's an assumption based on a simplistic and fundamentally flawed understanding of the conflict (Israelis as cartoon villains, always scheming; Palestinians as peaceful victims, never ill-intentioned).

The PLO back then wasn't moderate or decent, it was a collection of radical terrorist outfits committed to the destruction of Israel. The PLO was founded in the early 1960s, years before Israel's occupation of the "Palestinian territories" (i.e., Gaza and the West Bank); they were opposed to the existence of a Jewish state anywhere in the region and worked to destroy Israel via armed conflict. Naturally, there was no prospect for peace back then, just constant terrorist attacks by the PLO, such as the Munich Olympics massacre and the Entebbe plane hijacking, as well as various other hostage situations and school massacres and random shootings.

As you can imagine, the PLO was viewed as the primary Palestinian threat to Israel's security. The Israelis helped prop up Yassin (founder of Hamas) as a means of weakening the PLO's stranglehold on Palestinian politics, not because they wanted to discredit a mythical "moderate" PLO in order to continue the conflict in perpetuity like cartoon villains. However, the Israelis were largely unaware of (or grossly underestimated) the violent aims of Yassin and the threat that Islamism would later pose. This was at about the same time that the US was helping the Mujahideen against the Soviets in Afghanistan.

More complete account of the affair:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847

[spoiler=.]
A look at Israel's decades-long dealings with Palestinian radicals -- including some little-known attempts to cooperate with the Islamists -- reveals a catalog of unintended and often perilous consequences. Time and again, Israel's efforts to find a pliant Palestinian partner that is both credible with Palestinians and willing to eschew violence, have backfired. Would-be partners have turned into foes or lost the support of their people.

Israel's experience echoes that of the U.S., which, during the Cold War, looked to Islamists as a useful ally against communism. Anti-Soviet forces backed by America after Moscow's 1979 invasion of Afghanistan later mutated into al Qaeda.

...

When Israel first encountered Islamists in Gaza in the 1970s and '80s, they seemed focused on studying the Quran, not on confrontation with Israel. The Israeli government officially recognized a precursor to Hamas called Mujama Al-Islamiya, registering the group as a charity. It allowed Mujama members to set up an Islamic university and build mosques, clubs and schools. Crucially, Israel often stood aside when the Islamists and their secular left-wing Palestinian rivals battled, sometimes violently, for influence in both Gaza and the West Bank.

"When I look back at the chain of events I think we made a mistake," says David Hacham, who worked in Gaza in the late 1980s and early '90s as an Arab-affairs expert in the Israeli military. "But at the time nobody thought about the possible results."

...

Arieh Spitzen, the former head of the Israeli military's Department of Palestinian Affairs, says that even if Israel had tried to stop the Islamists sooner, he doubts it could have done much to curb political Islam, a movement that was spreading across the Muslim world. He says attempts to stop it are akin to trying to change the internal rhythms of nature: "It is like saying: 'I will kill all the mosquitoes.' But then you get even worse insects that will kill you...You break the balance. You kill Hamas you might get al Qaeda."

When it became clear in the early 1990s that Gaza's Islamists had mutated from a religious group into a fighting force aimed at Israel -- particularly after they turned to suicide bombings in 1994 -- Israel cracked down with ferocious force. But each military assault only increased Hamas's appeal to ordinary Palestinians. The group ultimately trounced secular rivals, notably Fatah, in a 2006 election supported by Israel's main ally, the U.S.

...

Brig. General Yosef Kastel, Gaza's Israeli governor at the time, is too ill to comment, says his wife. But Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who took over as governor in Gaza in late 1979, says he had no illusions about Sheikh Yassin's long-term intentions or the perils of political Islam. As Israel's former military attache in Iran, he'd watched Islamic fervor topple the Shah. However, in Gaza, says Mr. Segev, "our main enemy was Fatah," and the cleric "was still 100% peaceful" towards Israel. Former officials say Israel was also at the time wary of being viewed as an enemy of Islam.

Mr. Segev says he had regular contact with Sheikh Yassin, in part to keep an eye on him. He visited his mosque and met the cleric around a dozen times. It was illegal at the time for Israelis to meet anyone from the PLO. Mr. Segev later arranged for the cleric to be taken to Israel for hospital treatment. "We had no problems with him," he says.

...

A leader of Birzeit's Islamist faction at the time was Mahmoud Musleh, now a pro-Hamas member of a Palestinian legislature elected in 2006. He recalls how usually aggressive Israeli security forces stood back and let conflagration develop. He denies any collusion between his own camp and the Israelis, but says "they hoped we would become an alternative to the PLO."

A year later, in 1984, the Israeli military received a tip-off from Fatah supporters that Sheikh Yassin's Gaza Islamists were collecting arms, according to Israeli officials in Gaza at the time. Israeli troops raided a mosque and found a cache of weapons. Sheikh Yassin was jailed. He told Israeli interrogators the weapons were for use against rival Palestinians, not Israel, according to Mr. Hacham, the military affairs expert who says he spoke frequently with jailed Islamists. The cleric was released after a year and continued to expand Mujama's reach across Gaza.

Around the time of Sheikh Yassin's arrest, Mr. Cohen, the religious affairs official, sent a report to senior Israeli military and civilian officials in Gaza.

Describing the cleric as a "diabolical" figure, he warned that Israel's policy towards the Islamists was allowing Mujama to develop into a dangerous force.

"I believe that by continuing to turn away our eyes, our lenient approach to Mujama will in the future harm us. I therefore suggest focusing our efforts on finding ways to break up this monster before this reality jumps in our face," Mr. Cohen wrote.

Mr. Harari, the military intelligence officer, says this and other warnings were ignored. But, he says, the reason for this was neglect, not a desire to fortify the Islamists: "Israel never financed Hamas. Israel never armed Hamas."

Roni Shaked, a former officer of Shin Bet, Israel's internal security service, and author of a book on Hamas, says Sheikh Yassin and his followers had a long-term perspective whose dangers were not understood at the time. "They worked slowly, slowly, step by step according to the Muslim Brotherhood plan."

...

In 1989, Hamas carried out its first attack on Israel, abducting and killing two soldiers. Israel arrested Sheikh Yassin and sentenced him to life. It later rounded up more than 400 suspected Hamas activists, including Mr. Zahar, and deported them to southern Lebanon. There, they hooked up with Hezbollah, the Iran-backed A-Team of anti-Israeli militancy.

...

Walking back to his house from the rubble of his neighbor's home, Mr. Cohen, the former religious affairs official in Gaza, curses Hamas and also what he sees as missteps that allowed Islamists to put down deep roots in Gaza.

He recalls a 1970s meeting with a traditional Islamic cleric who wanted Israel to stop cooperating with the Muslim Brotherhood followers of Sheikh Yassin: "He told me: 'You are going to have big regrets in 20 or 30 years.' He was right."
[/spoiler]

In the early 1990s, Israel and the PLO agreed for the first time to work toward a peace settlement. Among other things, the PLO renounced terrorism and recognized Israel's right to exist, and in turn was recognized by Israel as the representative of the Palestinian people.

The PLO hasn't kept its end of the bargain, but in general they're nowhere near as violent as they used to be, and they've been rewarded for it. The Palestinians were granted self-government, and the PLO controls more Palestinian territory now than when they were engaged in open warfare against Israel. Palestinians have their own courts, police, and so on.

Hamas and some other Palestinian groups reject this path and prefer to continue the armed conflict against Israel, with the financial and military backing of Iran. Every once in a while they start a major war with Israel.

The idea that Israel is opposed to peace runs counter to all the historical evidence. Israel has worked to make peace with all its neighbors, often making huge concessions in the process, like giving up the Sinai Peninsula, which made up ~60% of Israel's territory at the time. Not exactly something an expansionist state with no interest in peace would do.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by deleted_user0 »

You leave out a pesky lil detail...

How did Israel come into possession of that 60% of their territory aka the sinai peninsula in the first place? Oh yeah, through armed conquest and occupation... doesnt sound very peaceful to me...
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by Goodspeed »

Umeu and his details.. Please leave poor lejend and his delusions alone.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by Horsemen »

umeu wrote:You leave out a pesky lil detail...

How did Israel come into possession of that 60% of their territory aka the sinai peninsula in the first place? Oh yeah, through armed conquest and occupation... doesnt sound very peaceful to me...

They only needed that territory to provide a buffer against Arab military aggression.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by lejend »

umeu wrote:You leave out a pesky lil detail...

How did Israel come into possession of that 60% of their territory aka the sinai peninsula in the first place? Oh yeah, through armed conquest and occupation... doesnt sound very peaceful to me...


Unless you think peace entails pacifism, this is a nonsensical argument. The Israelis captured the Sinai in a defensive conflict and held on to it as a buffer zone until peace could be signed. When Egypt agreed to make peace, Israel gave back the land. Right now the two countries are more or less allies.

None of that is relevant to the fact that Israel gave up the land for peace, though, so accusing me of "leaving out" this detail, as if it changes anything, is plain bizarre. The question remains: why would an expansionist state, one with no interest in making peace with its neighbors, give up the vast majority of its land in exchange for peace?

Chew on that a bit, and when you have an answer, make a new thread for it. :roll:
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by spanky4ever »

I know what kind off Christian righ winger you are @lejend your answer to why you like Trump, pretty much say it all. Righ now I am just waiting for @Dolan to crush your thread above. But I guess facts are science, and stand against your thoughts about Christianety. It is very strange to me.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by lejend »

Guys, if you want to discuss Israel or whatever, you can start another thread for it. A few posts about one topic or another is okay, but this isn't the thread for multi-page debates.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by spanky4ever »

lejend wrote:Guys, if you want to discuss Israel or whatever, you can start another thread for it. A few posts about one topic or another is okay, but this isn't the thread for multi-page debates.

Hmm, think you were pretty hot on that issue
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Re: Lejend's little corner

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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by Riotcoke »

kami_ryu wrote:dolan umeu lejend

it's like anime, I swear

(with umeu being the good protagonist, mind you)

Dolan and Lejend are the misunderstood edgy ones.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by deleted_user0 »

lejend wrote:
umeu wrote:You leave out a pesky lil detail...

How did Israel come into possession of that 60% of their territory aka the sinai peninsula in the first place? Oh yeah, through armed conquest and occupation... doesnt sound very peaceful to me...


Unless you think peace entails pacifism, this is a nonsensical argument. The Israelis captured the Sinai in a defensive conflict and held on to it as a buffer zone until peace could be signed. When Egypt agreed to make peace, Israel gave back the land. Right now the two countries are more or less allies.

None of that is relevant to the fact that Israel gave up the land for peace, though, so accusing me of "leaving out" this detail, as if it changes anything, is plain bizarre. The question remains: why would an expansionist state, one with no interest in making peace with its neighbors, give up the vast majority of its land in exchange for peace?

Chew on that a bit, and when you have an answer, make a new thread for it. :roll:


Because they had no rightful claim to the land. And even the USA was against them on this one. Obviously.

They didn't first take it in a defensive conflict, that was later. In 1956 Israel invaded Sinai and only withdrew in 1957 under heavy international pressure. They retook it later during the 6 day war, but there's no reason to keep it as anything else but a demilitarized zone if they weren't looking to expand (at the time, it of course says nothing about their current attitude). Instead they opted for large scale civilian settlement. They also annexated more territory during that conflict which was never returned.

In any case if you talk about the history of the conflict and make no mention of the bad blood created by the Sykes-Picot agreement and poor British understanding of the ethnic divisions in the region, how that impacted on the establishment of the Israeli state and the UN sanctioned division of the region, the subsequent violation of that division by annexating more territory including Jerusalem and the Dolan(!) heights, you're being dishonest.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by spanky4ever »

Thx @deleted_user for the spesifics
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Re: Lejend's little corner

  • Quote

Post by Cometk »

kami_ryu wrote:dolan umeu lejend

it's like anime, I swear

(with umeu being the good protagonist, mind you)

Image
Image
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by deleted_user0 »

Cometk wrote:
kami_ryu wrote:dolan umeu lejend

it's like anime, I swear

(with umeu being the good protagonist, mind you)

Image


Not this one... :kinggreen:
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by kami_ryu »

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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by spanky4ever »

I wonder how Leyend will present himself, facing Gabriel at the port?
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by lejend »

Image

One anonymous user's interpretation of this awkwardly worded conversation is as follows:

here's how i interpret this: Bill Hitchert, Jon Callanan and Lori Petrosino were facebook friends (prolly IRL friends as well). One day Bill Hitchert posted the Banana image. Maybe he got some response, maybe not. Maybe people commented on the image and he was really proud of his finding. Maybe no one commented and he let it go. I think he got some feedback and he was proud of himself, in a pleb way. Then, one day, perhaps not too long after, Jon Callanan posts the same banana image. I don't know if it was intentional or not. Perhaps he had a beef with Bill Hitchert, perhaps he was just trolling Bill, perhaps he was just as a moron as Bill (they are friends, after all). Bill, upon seeing that, not sure what Jon was up to, tries to fake a laugh and asks where did Jon find it (hey Jon "ha-ha", where did you find this ?). Jon, who prolly knew what he was doing, says, oh, just somewhere. Then adds sarcastically. Nice of you to join us. It's possible that Bill was ignoring Jon, and that Jon did it to bait Bill. Bill, then, passively-agressively says the famous "i really (3x) like this image", as if saying (yeah, I, it was me, before, who posted that image, scumbag) Jon, then replies with his famous: save it, it's yours, which, of course, means "yes, I know you posted, i stoled, suck my dick". Then Lori, who was just passing by, says: "wow, this is funny" Bill, then being the one who posted first, of course, says "thank you, you should thank me, I was the one who introduce the image to this faggot" And that was the story
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by Riotcoke »

lejend wrote:Image

One anonymous user's interpretation of this awkwardly worded conversation is as follows:

here's how i interpret this: Bill Hitchert, Jon Callanan and Lori Petrosino were facebook friends (prolly IRL friends as well). One day Bill Hitchert posted the Banana image. Maybe he got some response, maybe not. Maybe people commented on the image and he was really proud of his finding. Maybe no one commented and he let it go. I think he got some feedback and he was proud of himself, in a pleb way. Then, one day, perhaps not too long after, Jon Callanan posts the same banana image. I don't know if it was intentional or not. Perhaps he had a beef with Bill Hitchert, perhaps he was just trolling Bill, perhaps he was just as a moron as Bill (they are friends, after all). Bill, upon seeing that, not sure what Jon was up to, tries to fake a laugh and asks where did Jon find it (hey Jon "ha-ha", where did you find this ?). Jon, who prolly knew what he was doing, says, oh, just somewhere. Then adds sarcastically. Nice of you to join us. It's possible that Bill was ignoring Jon, and that Jon did it to bait Bill. Bill, then, passively-agressively says the famous "i really (3x) like this image", as if saying (yeah, I, it was me, before, who posted that image, scumbag) Jon, then replies with his famous: save it, it's yours, which, of course, means "yes, I know you posted, i stoled, suck my dick". Then Lori, who was just passing by, says: "wow, this is funny" Bill, then being the one who posted first, of course, says "thank you, you should thank me, I was the one who introduce the image to this faggot" And that was the story

Why do you post this shit?
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by fightinfrenchman »

There are so many weird posts happening that I honestly feel like I might be in Toon World
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by lejend »

Riotcoke wrote:Why do you post this shit?


Oh, it just cracked me up. Thanks for joining us today Riotcoke
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by Riotcoke »

lejend wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:Why do you post this shit?


Oh, it just cracked me up. Thanks for joining us today Riotcoke

Thank you for the honest reply Lejend :)
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by princeofcarthage »

I mean lejend and Jam have got to be the 2nd and 3rd smartest people on whole of ESOC
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by Jam »

Lejend once made me use 30% of my power. Impressive, for a mortal.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by lejend »

A lot of people don't know this, but Jam can't use up his power. The more he uses it, the more of it he has.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by lejend »

The Desert Fathers (along with Desert Mothers) were early Christian hermits, ascetics, and monks who lived mainly in the Scetes desert of Egypt beginning around the third century AD. The most well known was Anthony the Great, who moved to the desert in AD 270–271 and became known as both the father and founder of desert monasticism. By the time Anthony died in AD 356, thousands of monks and nuns had been drawn to living in the desert following Anthony's example. The Desert Fathers had a major influence on the development of Christianity.

The desert monastic communities that grew out of the informal gathering of hermit monks became the model for Christian monasticism. The eastern monastic tradition at Mount Athos and the western Rule of Saint Benedict both were strongly influenced by the traditions that began in the desert. All of the monastic revivals of the Middle Ages looked to the desert for inspiration and guidance. Much of Eastern Christian spirituality, including the Hesychast movement, had its roots in the practices of the Desert Fathers. Even religious renewals such as the German evangelicals and Pietists in Pennsylvania, the Devotio Moderna movement, and the Methodist Revival in England are seen by modern scholars as being influenced by the Desert Fathers.


This is the story of Saint Moses the Black (330–405), a notable Desert Father.

Moses was a black servant of a government official in Egypt who dismissed him for theft and suspected murder. A large, imposing figure, he became the leader of a gang of bandits who roamed the Nile Valley spreading terror and violence.

On one occasion, a barking dog prevented Moses from carrying out a robbery, so he swore vengeance on the owner. Weapons in his mouth, Moses swam the river toward the owner's hut. The owner, again alerted, hid, and the frustrated Moses took some of his sheep to slaughter. Attempting to hide from local authorities, he took shelter with some monks in a colony in the desert of Wadi El Natrun, then called Scetes, near Alexandria. The dedication of their lives, as well as their peace and contentment, influenced Moses deeply. He soon gave up his old way of life, became a Christian, was baptized and joined the monastic community at Scetes.

Moses had a rather difficult time adjusting to regular monastic discipline. His flair for adventure remained with him. Attacked by a group of robbers in his desert cell, Moses fought back, overpowered the intruders, and dragged them to the chapel where the other monks were at prayer. He told the brothers that he did not think it is Christian to hurt the robbers and asked what he should do with them. The robbers themselves repented and joined the community as brothers afterwards. Moses was zealous in all he did, but became discouraged when he concluded he was not perfect enough. Early one morning, Saint Isidore, abbot of the monastery, took Moses to the roof and together they watched the first rays of dawn come over the horizon. Isidore told Moses, "Only slowly do the rays of the sun drive away the night and usher in a new day, and thus, only slowly does one become a perfect contemplative."

Moses proved to be effective as a prophetic spiritual leader. The abbot ordered the brothers to fast during a particular week. Some brothers came to Moses, and he prepared a meal for them. Neighboring monks reported to the abbot that Moses was breaking the fast. When they came to confront Moses, they changed their minds, saying "You did not keep a human commandment, but it was so that you might keep the divine commandment of hospitality."

When a brother committed a fault and Moses was invited to a meeting to discuss an appropriate penance, Moses refused to attend. When he was again called to the meeting, Moses took a leaking jug filled with water and carried it on his shoulder. Another version of the story has him carrying a basket filled with sand. When he arrived at the meeting place, the others asked why he was carrying the jug. He replied, "My sins run out behind me and I do not see them, but today I am coming to judge the errors of another." On hearing this, the assembled brothers forgave the erring monk.

At about age 75, about the year 405 AD, word came that a group of Berbers planned to attack the monastery. The brothers wanted to defend themselves, but Moses forbade it. He told them to retreat, rather than take up weapons. Citing that a violent death was the appropriate death for a former robber -- "all who take the sword will perish by the sword"—he opted to remain behind. He was joined by seven others, and they were together martyred by the bandits on 24 Paoni (July 1).

Moses was highly praised by his contemporaries. In his 5th century AD Ecclesiastical History, written about 70 years after Moses's death, Hermias Sozomen sums up Moses's legacy as follows:

So sudden a conversion from vice to virtue was never before witnessed, nor such rapid attainments in monastical philosophy. Hence God rendered him an object of dread to the demons and he was ordained presbyter over the monks at Scetis. After a life spent in this manner, he died at the age of seventy-five, leaving behind him numerous eminent disciples.


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