Lejend's little corner

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Nauru Dolan
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by Dolan »

Arguing about abstract moral stuff is really boring. Like wtf is a moral truth or even 'objective' moral truth
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Nauru Dolan
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Re: Lejend's little corner

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lejend wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 14:57
Dolan wrote:
01 Aug 2022, 07:56
If the inevitability of a horrible fate makes people dread (death), the inevitability of a good fate guaranteed by timeless moral laws can make people euphoric they can escape the ever-changing Heraclitean river of being.

There's a lifeline in that river they can hold on to and escape the destruction and loss of their self.

People place their hopes for salvation in what does not come from their reason, but from something that is not familiar and is out of their control.
Why do atheists talk like a JRPG final boss delivering his last monologue

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I don't really identify as an atheist. If a kid is born and raised without ever learning about god(s), does he grow up to be an atheist or just a no-label.
It seems to me that the atheist concept was born as a reaction to the previous existence in that culture of prevalent theistic beliefs.
Defining someone based on what they don't adhere to because others used to adhere to certain beliefs during some historical period seems anachronistic to me.

RE JRPG monologues: when you're getting deeper into abstract reflection, you start sounding like you're talking from somewhere high up in a tower, it's inevitable.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by Jotunir »

Is Christianity’s greatest flaw the denial of human goodness removed from faith?
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by Horsemen »

Dolan wrote:
04 Aug 2022, 05:25
Arguing about abstract moral stuff is really boring. Like wtf is a moral truth or even 'objective' moral truth
This is a forum for a video game that was released 17 years ago. What were you expecting to discuss?
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Horsemen wrote:
04 Aug 2022, 14:56
Dolan wrote:
04 Aug 2022, 05:25
Arguing about abstract moral stuff is really boring. Like wtf is a moral truth or even 'objective' moral truth
This is a forum for a video game that was released 17 years ago. What were you expecting to discuss?
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Re: Lejend's little corner

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How is the post-COVID pool supplies boom going?

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Re: Lejend's little corner

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Horsemen wrote:
04 Aug 2022, 14:56
Dolan wrote:
04 Aug 2022, 05:25
Arguing about abstract moral stuff is really boring. Like wtf is a moral truth or even 'objective' moral truth
This is a forum for a video game that was released 17 years ago. What were you expecting to discuss?
Anything is fine as long as the subject is not too vague (such as moral absolutes).
Like cars. good mice recommendations, did Walter White actually turn into Satan, normies - why do they exist and what is their endgame, is Baron Trump ever gonna stop growing in height, does corporate culture have any future, is Japan gonna go through a reawakening and rearming like 'everyone smart' predicts, what happens after consumer culture goes kaput in the upcoming economic purgatory, etc.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by callentournies »

I can talk mice
If I were a petal
And plucked, or moth, plucked
From flowers or pollen froth
To wither on a young child’s
Display. Fetch
Me a ribbon, they, all dead
Things scream.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by lejend »

Jotunir wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 17:02
@lejend I am an Agnostic, not an Atheist.
"A man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe." — Thomas Henry Huxley
A hypothesis with no supporting, objective, testable evidence is not an objective, scientific claim. As such, there would be no way to test said hypotheses, leaving the results inconclusive.
What you're describing sounds like scientism, which is the idea that only scientific claims are valid. This is incoherent because such a claim isn't scientific and science itself rests on assumptions that can't be demonstrated scientifically, such as the reliability of the senses and the uniformity of nature. Scientism refutes itself.
As for morality, it does not rely on religion. "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death." — Albert Einstein
If morality is just based on feelings, education and relationships with other people, then morality is subjective, not objective. Someone who has different feelings or raised in a different culture or society might end up with an entirely different set of moral values. So the view Einstein expresses here is exactly the view that I'm saying is entailed by atheism.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by lejend »

Horsemen wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 20:04
lejend wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 14:57
Horsemen wrote:
01 Aug 2022, 05:52
Why do I need to be a theist to perceive objective moral truths? An atheist could perceive other types of objective truth, so what is so special about moral truths? If I relied on religious belief for my moral compass, wouldn’t that make moral truths subjective?
You don't. The question isn't whether an atheist can perceive objective moral truths, but whether an atheistic worldview can rationally account for the existence of such truths. Without recognition of an objective moral law-giver, an atheist could believe in the existence of objective moral laws, but he'd have no rational warrant for this belief.

Why wouldn't an atheist have a rationale to account for objective moral truths?
Because on the atheistic view there's no reason to think that certain moral values are objectively better than others, nor can there be an objective law or obligation to act according to those values in the absence of an objective law-giver.

Any argument for objective moral values and duties is going to be based on premises that can't be supported on atheism, namely, the recognition of a transcendent personal being who is himself the Good and whose moral commands flow necessarily out of his nature and therefore aren't arbitrary.

Many non-theist philosophers agree that morality is subjective in the absence of God. For example, Michael Ruse, who is a philosopher of science:
“Morality is a biological adaptation no less than are hands and feet and teeth. Considered as a rationally justifiable set of claims about an objective something, ethics is illusory. I appreciate that when somebody says ‘love thy neighbor as thyself,’ they think they are referring above and beyond themselves. Nevertheless, such reference is truly without foundation. Morality is just an aid to survival and reproduction . . . And any deeper meaning is illusory.”

- Michael Ruse, “Evolutionary Theory and Christian Ethics,” in The Darwinian Paradigm (London: Routledge, 1989)
How do you think an atheist would rationally ground objective morality?
Do atheists need a rationale to account for other types of objective truths? What makes moral truths so special?
I would think so. If atheists want to claim that their belief in (say) the objectivity of the physical world is a rational one, they should be expected to put forth a rational justification for that belief.
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Argentina Jotunir
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by Jotunir »

Believe what you will, I was just trying to help you.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by iNcog »

lejend wrote:
12 Aug 2022, 21:10
Jotunir wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 17:02
@lejend I am an Agnostic, not an Atheist.
"A man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe." — Thomas Henry Huxley
A hypothesis with no supporting, objective, testable evidence is not an objective, scientific claim. As such, there would be no way to test said hypotheses, leaving the results inconclusive.
What you're describing sounds like scientism, which is the idea that only scientific claims are valid. This is incoherent because such a claim isn't scientific and science itself rests on assumptions that can't be demonstrated scientifically, such as the reliability of the senses and the uniformity of nature. Scientism refutes itself.
As for morality, it does not rely on religion. "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death." — Albert Einstein
If morality is just based on feelings, education and relationships with other people, then morality is subjective, not objective. Someone who has different feelings or raised in a different culture or society might end up with an entirely different set of moral values. So the view Einstein expresses here is exactly the view that I'm saying is entailed by atheism.
Morality based on religious beliefs is just as subjective as non-theist morality? Your notion of God is made up. There is nothing objective about theism which means that moralty cannot have a basis of objectivity through God.
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/incog_aoe
Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by lejend »

iNcog wrote:
27 Aug 2022, 18:42
lejend wrote:
12 Aug 2022, 21:10
Jotunir wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 17:02
@lejend I am an Agnostic, not an Atheist.
"A man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe." — Thomas Henry Huxley
A hypothesis with no supporting, objective, testable evidence is not an objective, scientific claim. As such, there would be no way to test said hypotheses, leaving the results inconclusive.
What you're describing sounds like scientism, which is the idea that only scientific claims are valid. This is incoherent because such a claim isn't scientific and science itself rests on assumptions that can't be demonstrated scientifically, such as the reliability of the senses and the uniformity of nature. Scientism refutes itself.
As for morality, it does not rely on religion. "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death." — Albert Einstein
If morality is just based on feelings, education and relationships with other people, then morality is subjective, not objective. Someone who has different feelings or raised in a different culture or society might end up with an entirely different set of moral values. So the view Einstein expresses here is exactly the view that I'm saying is entailed by atheism.
Morality based on religious beliefs is just as subjective as non-theist morality? Your notion of God is made up. There is nothing objective about theism which means that moralty cannot have a basis of objectivity through God.
What's not objective about theism?
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by iNcog »

lejend wrote:
28 Aug 2022, 04:48
iNcog wrote:
27 Aug 2022, 18:42
Show hidden quotes
Morality based on religious beliefs is just as subjective as non-theist morality? Your notion of God is made up. There is nothing objective about theism which means that moralty cannot have a basis of objectivity through God.
What's not objective about theism?
It is quite literally based off of belief, which is not at all how "objective" is defined.
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/incog_aoe
Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by lejend »

iNcog wrote:
28 Aug 2022, 11:01
It is quite literally based off of belief, which is not at all how "objective" is defined.
Objective means something is real independent of people's opinions. I don't see how the fact that people have one opinion or another about something means it therefore isn't real.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by iNcog »

lejend wrote:
30 Aug 2022, 15:33
iNcog wrote:
28 Aug 2022, 11:01
It is quite literally based off of belief, which is not at all how "objective" is defined.
Objective means something is real independent of people's opinions. I don't see how the fact that people have one opinion or another about something means it therefore isn't real.
Gods aren't real, they're based off of belief.
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/incog_aoe
Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by chris1089 »

What do you mean by belief there @iNcog ? Because a perfectly natural and normal use of the word would be the following: it is my belief that the grass is green. So, in the normal sense of the word, you can't argue that because something is based off of a belief, it's therefore false.

What kind of belief are you referring to?
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by Goodspeed »

Belief in a specific fictional account that was never even presented as a scientific hypothesis, let alone peer reviewed, and certainly wouldn't hold up to any reasonable standard of verification
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by iNcog »

^what he said. it's pretty obvious to see that grass is green. you can literally get a group of people to come see your grass and check out its color. your gods are not to be verified and are based off of belief. or faith, if you prefer.

What I'm getting at is that any theist based version of morality has literally the same flaws in it as non-theist morality. It's not based on anything objective
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Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by fightinfrenchman »

chris1089 wrote:
31 Aug 2022, 09:44
Because a perfectly natural and normal use of the word would be the following: it is my belief that the grass is green.
That's not a normal thing to say
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by lejend »

chris1089 wrote:
31 Aug 2022, 09:44
What do you mean by belief there @iNcog ? Because a perfectly natural and normal use of the word would be the following: it is my belief that the grass is green. So, in the normal sense of the word, you can't argue that because something is based off of a belief, it's therefore false.

What kind of belief are you referring to?
It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his pride depends on his not understanding it.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by iNcog »

lejend wrote:
01 Sep 2022, 21:15
chris1089 wrote:
31 Aug 2022, 09:44
What do you mean by belief there @iNcog ? Because a perfectly natural and normal use of the word would be the following: it is my belief that the grass is green. So, in the normal sense of the word, you can't argue that because something is based off of a belief, it's therefore false.

What kind of belief are you referring to?
It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his pride depends on his not understanding it.
Hey, prove me wrong, I don't have a horse in this race. There are arguments to be made; the universe is too perfect in a sense, for it to have been done accidentally.
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/incog_aoe
Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by callentournies »

why did god give me such a large penis
If I were a petal
And plucked, or moth, plucked
From flowers or pollen froth
To wither on a young child’s
Display. Fetch
Me a ribbon, they, all dead
Things scream.
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by Horsemen »

callentournies wrote:
02 Sep 2022, 00:29
why did god give me such a large penis
:roll:
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Re: Lejend's little corner

Post by iNcog »

So are not having this discussion? I'm asking how the demonstration of God's existence is objective. Thereafter we can make an argument as to whether morality can have objective foundation in theism. Which it really can't. Even if God did exist, why do humans get to decide or interpret God's will? That doesn't make sense. That, on top of the fact that of course God's existence is really based off of belief more than anything else (which is human cognition... something lejend argues is flawed to begin with).

I'm fairly interested in the discussion of morality so... please prove me wrong.

Edit: on a more sour note, Christianity is literally the religion of pedophilia. Islam is the religion of treating women like shit. There are plenty of examples of these behaviors TODAY that we see worldwide, and everyone turns a blind eye to it, because we must be tolerant of beliefs.
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Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.

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