Lejend's little corner
Re: Lejend's little corner
Arguing about abstract moral stuff is really boring. Like wtf is a moral truth or even 'objective' moral truth
Re: Lejend's little corner
I don't really identify as an atheist. If a kid is born and raised without ever learning about god(s), does he grow up to be an atheist or just a no-label.lejend wrote: ↑03 Aug 2022, 14:57Why do atheists talk like a JRPG final boss delivering his last monologueDolan wrote: ↑01 Aug 2022, 07:56If the inevitability of a horrible fate makes people dread (death), the inevitability of a good fate guaranteed by timeless moral laws can make people euphoric they can escape the ever-changing Heraclitean river of being.
There's a lifeline in that river they can hold on to and escape the destruction and loss of their self.
People place their hopes for salvation in what does not come from their reason, but from something that is not familiar and is out of their control.
It seems to me that the atheist concept was born as a reaction to the previous existence in that culture of prevalent theistic beliefs.
Defining someone based on what they don't adhere to because others used to adhere to certain beliefs during some historical period seems anachronistic to me.
RE JRPG monologues: when you're getting deeper into abstract reflection, you start sounding like you're talking from somewhere high up in a tower, it's inevitable.
Re: Lejend's little corner
Is Christianity’s greatest flaw the denial of human goodness removed from faith?
- fightinfrenchman
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Re: Lejend's little corner
How is the post-COVID pool supplies boom going?
Re: Lejend's little corner
Anything is fine as long as the subject is not too vague (such as moral absolutes).
Like cars. good mice recommendations, did Walter White actually turn into Satan, normies - why do they exist and what is their endgame, is Baron Trump ever gonna stop growing in height, does corporate culture have any future, is Japan gonna go through a reawakening and rearming like 'everyone smart' predicts, what happens after consumer culture goes kaput in the upcoming economic purgatory, etc.
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- Howdah
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Re: Lejend's little corner
I can talk mice
If I were a petal
And plucked, or moth, plucked
From flowers or pollen froth
To wither on a young child’s
Display. Fetch
Me a ribbon, they, all dead
Things scream.
And plucked, or moth, plucked
From flowers or pollen froth
To wither on a young child’s
Display. Fetch
Me a ribbon, they, all dead
Things scream.
Re: Lejend's little corner
What you're describing sounds like scientism, which is the idea that only scientific claims are valid. This is incoherent because such a claim isn't scientific and science itself rests on assumptions that can't be demonstrated scientifically, such as the reliability of the senses and the uniformity of nature. Scientism refutes itself.Jotunir wrote: ↑03 Aug 2022, 17:02@lejend I am an Agnostic, not an Atheist.
"A man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe." — Thomas Henry Huxley
A hypothesis with no supporting, objective, testable evidence is not an objective, scientific claim. As such, there would be no way to test said hypotheses, leaving the results inconclusive.
If morality is just based on feelings, education and relationships with other people, then morality is subjective, not objective. Someone who has different feelings or raised in a different culture or society might end up with an entirely different set of moral values. So the view Einstein expresses here is exactly the view that I'm saying is entailed by atheism.As for morality, it does not rely on religion. "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death." — Albert Einstein
Re: Lejend's little corner
Because on the atheistic view there's no reason to think that certain moral values are objectively better than others, nor can there be an objective law or obligation to act according to those values in the absence of an objective law-giver.Horsemen wrote: ↑03 Aug 2022, 20:04Why wouldn't an atheist have a rationale to account for objective moral truths?lejend wrote: ↑03 Aug 2022, 14:57You don't. The question isn't whether an atheist can perceive objective moral truths, but whether an atheistic worldview can rationally account for the existence of such truths. Without recognition of an objective moral law-giver, an atheist could believe in the existence of objective moral laws, but he'd have no rational warrant for this belief.
Any argument for objective moral values and duties is going to be based on premises that can't be supported on atheism, namely, the recognition of a transcendent personal being who is himself the Good and whose moral commands flow necessarily out of his nature and therefore aren't arbitrary.
Many non-theist philosophers agree that morality is subjective in the absence of God. For example, Michael Ruse, who is a philosopher of science:
How do you think an atheist would rationally ground objective morality?“Morality is a biological adaptation no less than are hands and feet and teeth. Considered as a rationally justifiable set of claims about an objective something, ethics is illusory. I appreciate that when somebody says ‘love thy neighbor as thyself,’ they think they are referring above and beyond themselves. Nevertheless, such reference is truly without foundation. Morality is just an aid to survival and reproduction . . . And any deeper meaning is illusory.”
- Michael Ruse, “Evolutionary Theory and Christian Ethics,” in The Darwinian Paradigm (London: Routledge, 1989)
I would think so. If atheists want to claim that their belief in (say) the objectivity of the physical world is a rational one, they should be expected to put forth a rational justification for that belief.Do atheists need a rationale to account for other types of objective truths? What makes moral truths so special?
Re: Lejend's little corner
Believe what you will, I was just trying to help you.
Re: Lejend's little corner
Morality based on religious beliefs is just as subjective as non-theist morality? Your notion of God is made up. There is nothing objective about theism which means that moralty cannot have a basis of objectivity through God.lejend wrote: ↑12 Aug 2022, 21:10What you're describing sounds like scientism, which is the idea that only scientific claims are valid. This is incoherent because such a claim isn't scientific and science itself rests on assumptions that can't be demonstrated scientifically, such as the reliability of the senses and the uniformity of nature. Scientism refutes itself.Jotunir wrote: ↑03 Aug 2022, 17:02@lejend I am an Agnostic, not an Atheist.
"A man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe." — Thomas Henry Huxley
A hypothesis with no supporting, objective, testable evidence is not an objective, scientific claim. As such, there would be no way to test said hypotheses, leaving the results inconclusive.
If morality is just based on feelings, education and relationships with other people, then morality is subjective, not objective. Someone who has different feelings or raised in a different culture or society might end up with an entirely different set of moral values. So the view Einstein expresses here is exactly the view that I'm saying is entailed by atheism.As for morality, it does not rely on religion. "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death." — Albert Einstein
Re: Lejend's little corner
What's not objective about theism?iNcog wrote: ↑27 Aug 2022, 18:42Morality based on religious beliefs is just as subjective as non-theist morality? Your notion of God is made up. There is nothing objective about theism which means that moralty cannot have a basis of objectivity through God.lejend wrote: ↑12 Aug 2022, 21:10What you're describing sounds like scientism, which is the idea that only scientific claims are valid. This is incoherent because such a claim isn't scientific and science itself rests on assumptions that can't be demonstrated scientifically, such as the reliability of the senses and the uniformity of nature. Scientism refutes itself.Jotunir wrote: ↑03 Aug 2022, 17:02@lejend I am an Agnostic, not an Atheist.
"A man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe." — Thomas Henry Huxley
A hypothesis with no supporting, objective, testable evidence is not an objective, scientific claim. As such, there would be no way to test said hypotheses, leaving the results inconclusive.
If morality is just based on feelings, education and relationships with other people, then morality is subjective, not objective. Someone who has different feelings or raised in a different culture or society might end up with an entirely different set of moral values. So the view Einstein expresses here is exactly the view that I'm saying is entailed by atheism.As for morality, it does not rely on religion. "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death." — Albert Einstein
Re: Lejend's little corner
It is quite literally based off of belief, which is not at all how "objective" is defined.
Re: Lejend's little corner
Objective means something is real independent of people's opinions. I don't see how the fact that people have one opinion or another about something means it therefore isn't real.
Re: Lejend's little corner
Gods aren't real, they're based off of belief.
Re: Lejend's little corner
What do you mean by belief there @iNcog ? Because a perfectly natural and normal use of the word would be the following: it is my belief that the grass is green. So, in the normal sense of the word, you can't argue that because something is based off of a belief, it's therefore false.
What kind of belief are you referring to?
What kind of belief are you referring to?
Re: Lejend's little corner
Belief in a specific fictional account that was never even presented as a scientific hypothesis, let alone peer reviewed, and certainly wouldn't hold up to any reasonable standard of verification
Re: Lejend's little corner
^what he said. it's pretty obvious to see that grass is green. you can literally get a group of people to come see your grass and check out its color. your gods are not to be verified and are based off of belief. or faith, if you prefer.
What I'm getting at is that any theist based version of morality has literally the same flaws in it as non-theist morality. It's not based on anything objective
What I'm getting at is that any theist based version of morality has literally the same flaws in it as non-theist morality. It's not based on anything objective
- fightinfrenchman
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Re: Lejend's little corner
It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his pride depends on his not understanding it.chris1089 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2022, 09:44What do you mean by belief there @iNcog ? Because a perfectly natural and normal use of the word would be the following: it is my belief that the grass is green. So, in the normal sense of the word, you can't argue that because something is based off of a belief, it's therefore false.
What kind of belief are you referring to?
Re: Lejend's little corner
Hey, prove me wrong, I don't have a horse in this race. There are arguments to be made; the universe is too perfect in a sense, for it to have been done accidentally.lejend wrote: ↑01 Sep 2022, 21:15It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his pride depends on his not understanding it.chris1089 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2022, 09:44What do you mean by belief there @iNcog ? Because a perfectly natural and normal use of the word would be the following: it is my belief that the grass is green. So, in the normal sense of the word, you can't argue that because something is based off of a belief, it's therefore false.
What kind of belief are you referring to?
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- Howdah
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Re: Lejend's little corner
why did god give me such a large penis
If I were a petal
And plucked, or moth, plucked
From flowers or pollen froth
To wither on a young child’s
Display. Fetch
Me a ribbon, they, all dead
Things scream.
And plucked, or moth, plucked
From flowers or pollen froth
To wither on a young child’s
Display. Fetch
Me a ribbon, they, all dead
Things scream.
Re: Lejend's little corner
So are not having this discussion? I'm asking how the demonstration of God's existence is objective. Thereafter we can make an argument as to whether morality can have objective foundation in theism. Which it really can't. Even if God did exist, why do humans get to decide or interpret God's will? That doesn't make sense. That, on top of the fact that of course God's existence is really based off of belief more than anything else (which is human cognition... something lejend argues is flawed to begin with).
I'm fairly interested in the discussion of morality so... please prove me wrong.
Edit: on a more sour note, Christianity is literally the religion of pedophilia. Islam is the religion of treating women like shit. There are plenty of examples of these behaviors TODAY that we see worldwide, and everyone turns a blind eye to it, because we must be tolerant of beliefs.
I'm fairly interested in the discussion of morality so... please prove me wrong.
Edit: on a more sour note, Christianity is literally the religion of pedophilia. Islam is the religion of treating women like shit. There are plenty of examples of these behaviors TODAY that we see worldwide, and everyone turns a blind eye to it, because we must be tolerant of beliefs.
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