Lejend's little corner

[chris1089]

So are not having this discussion? I'm asking how the demonstration of God's existence is objective. Thereafter we can make an argument as to whether morality can have objective foundation in theism. Which it really can't. Even if God did exist, why do humans get to decide or interpret God's will? That doesn't make sense. That, on top of the fact that of course God's existence is really based off of belief more than anything else (which is human cognition... something lejend argues is flawed to begin with).

Not a full response. Some of those questions require somewhat lengthy answers.

Firstly, God is not a dependant being. God exists whether or not you or I believe he exists. And when I say God I mean the triune God who has revealed himself in the bible.

You wish to decide whether God exists by using some measurement or criteria. But who are you (or I) to decide by what rationale it will be decided if God exists? Suppose you found he didn't exist, how would you know that you had not used the wrong metric? Perhaps if you had used another metric you would have realised that in actuality he does exist.

My point is to say that apart from God's self revelation you are left not knowing. And to claim he does not exist, is to be left at the mercy of subjectivity, uncertainty and self-delusion.

God exists. He has revealed himself in the bible. Believe (i.e accept as truth claims) what he has said.

[iNcog]

God wrote the Bible? What?

It was just some dude who pretended to be God?

[fightinfrenchman]

You wish to decide whether God exists by using some measurement or criteria. But who are you (or I) to decide by what rationale it will be decided if God exists? Suppose you found he didn't exist, how would you know that you had not used the wrong metric? Perhaps if you had used another metric you would have realised that in actuality he does exist.

My point is to say that apart from God's self revelation you are left not knowing. And to claim he does not exist, is to be left at the mercy of subjectivity, uncertainty and self-delusion.

God exists. He has revealed himself in the bible. Believe (i.e accept as truth claims) what he has said.

Seems like you've already decided on a metric you like lol

[Goodspeed]

So are not having this discussion? I'm asking how the demonstration of God's existence is objective. Thereafter we can make an argument as to whether morality can have objective foundation in theism. Which it really can't. Even if God did exist, why do humans get to decide or interpret God's will? That doesn't make sense. That, on top of the fact that of course God's existence is really based off of belief more than anything else (which is human cognition... something lejend argues is flawed to begin with).

Not a full response. Some of those questions require somewhat lengthy answers.

Firstly, God is not a dependant being. God exists whether or not you or I believe he exists. And when I say God I mean the triune God who has revealed himself in the bible.

You wish to decide whether God exists by using some measurement or criteria. But who are you (or I) to decide by what rationale it will be decided if God exists? Suppose you found he didn't exist, how would you know that you had not used the wrong metric? Perhaps if you had used another metric you would have realised that in actuality he does exist.

My point is to say that apart from God's self revelation you are left not knowing. And to claim he does not exist, is to be left at the mercy of subjectivity, uncertainty and self-delusion.

God exists. He has revealed himself in the bible. Believe (i.e accept as truth claims) what he has said.

Many books were written in history. Please understand that to someone who wasn't raised with the bible as a major part of their identity, it's just another book. Someone like that would attach more value to sources that are peer reviewed and backed by evidence, such as "On the origin of species".

God has "revealed himself" in many books. You claim it did so in the bible, others may claim it did so in another book. Who are we, as third parties with no horse in the race, to believe? What reason would we have to believe any of you over scientific sources?

Try to put yourself in the shoes of someone who wasn't told from a very young age that the bible contains objective truth, and is instead introduced to it as an (educated) adult. Really try. How would you respond?

[lejend]

The idea that a Western European in 2022 is somehow a free-thinking rebel for rejecting Christianity should be included in the next DSM as a verified mental illness

[lejend]

Ed Feser on atheist sentimentality:

[fightinfrenchman]

The idea that a Western European in 2022 is somehow a free-thinking rebel for rejecting Christianity should be included in the next DSM as a verified mental illness

Did he say he was a rebel for that? Is being a free-thinking rebel good in your eyes?

[harcha]

organized religion is a scam.

[iNcog]

Ed Feser on atheist sentimentality:

yeah you know I'm not going to be tolerant of an organization that facilitates the rape of children

I also distinguish religion from spirituality. Assuming God exists blah blah blah, then you can have a relationship with said God without going to church. church in American is a tax free money making scheme really, which is appalling and I put that stuff on the same level as Scientologists (lol).


All of my sour dithering aside, my original question still stands. What is the basis of your belief of God? chris mentioned the Bible, I've heard other, more credible, answers from other people in my life. I want to understand where these people are coming from with their beliefs.

[callentournies]

it's a way of making meaning which never has great basis on account of not meaning. things are tools that can be more good or more bad. the notion of little christs, loving your enemy is pretty good. suppressing rights and being bigoted is bad.

[lejend]

The apostles Peter and John heal a lame man

1 One afternoon Peter and John were going up to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour. 2 And a man who was lame from birth was being carried to the temple gate called Beautiful, where he was put every day to beg from those entering the temple courts. 3 When he saw Peter and John about to enter, he asked them for money.

4 Peter looked directly at him, as did John. “Look at us!” said Peter. 5 So the man gave them his attention, expecting to receive something from them. 6 But Peter said, “Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, get up and walk!”

7 Taking him by the right hand, Peter helped him up, and at once the man’s feet and ankles were made strong. 8 He sprang to his feet and began to walk. Then he went with them into the temple courts, walking and leaping and praising God.

9 When all the people saw him walking and praising God, 10 they recognized him as the man who used to sit begging at the Beautiful Gate of the temple, and they were filled with wonder and amazement at what had happened to him.

Once, when Thomas Aquinas was in Rome and in the presence of Pope Innocent IV., before whom a large sum of money was spread out, the Pope observed, “You see, Thomas, the Church is no longer in an age in which she can say, ‘Silver and gold have I none.’”

“True, holy father,” replied Aquinas; “neither can she any longer say to the lame, ‘Rise up and walk.’”

--S.A. Bent, comp. Familiar Short Sayings of Great Men. 1887.

[Snuden]

The apostles Peter and John heal a lame man

1 One afternoon Peter and John were going up to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour. 2 And a man who was lame from birth was being carried to the temple gate called Beautiful, where he was put every day to beg from those entering the temple courts. 3 When he saw Peter and John about to enter, he asked them for money.

4 Peter looked directly at him, as did John. “Look at us!” said Peter. 5 So the man gave them his attention, expecting to receive something from them. 6 But Peter said, “Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, get up and walk!”

7 Taking him by the right hand, Peter helped him up, and at once the man’s feet and ankles were made strong. 8 He sprang to his feet and began to walk. Then he went with them into the temple courts, walking and leaping and praising God.

9 When all the people saw him walking and praising God, 10 they recognized him as the man who used to sit begging at the Beautiful Gate of the temple, and they were filled with wonder and amazement at what had happened to him.

Once, when Thomas Aquinas was in Rome and in the presence of Pope Innocent IV., before whom a large sum of money was spread out, the Pope observed, “You see, Thomas, the Church is no longer in an age in which she can say, ‘Silver and gold have I none.’”

“True, holy father,” replied Aquinas; “neither can she any longer say to the lame, ‘Rise up and walk.’”

--S.A. Bent, comp. Familiar Short Sayings of Great Men. 1887.

kek

[Ardeshir]

yeah you know I'm not going to be tolerant of an organization that facilitates the rape of children

So you're against all institutions with high rates of child abuse?

Hate to say it, but if you were to do it based off actual stats, you'd be going after the other 2 wings of Abrahamism, plus government-involved education and mental health services long before you start going after Catholics (and I say this as a non-denominational protestant that last went to church for a wedding in the extended family). In my country, the wokies managed to go after the bloke that set up a church fund for victims to get counselling and support as the "man behind covering it up". Not one of those muppets could name Malka Leifer, what she believed or where she fled to though!

[iNcog]

yeah you know I'm not going to be tolerant of an organization that facilitates the rape of children

So you're against all institutions with high rates of child abuse?

Hate to say it, but if you were to do it based off actual stats, you'd be going after the other 2 wings of Abrahamism, plus government-involved education and mental health services long before you start going after Catholics (and I say this as a non-denominational protestant that last went to church for a wedding in the extended family). In my country, the wokies managed to go after the bloke that set up a church fund for victims to get counselling and support as the "man behind covering it up". Not one of those muppets could name Malka Leifer, what she believed or where she fled to though!

Cool story

[Jam]

@legend , good to see some Melangthon getting pulled out. Not really read any of his work, but one of my friends did his research project on some of his writings.

Yeah, I'm not really into Lutheranism but Melanchthon perfectly articulates my view on the whole system of relics, icons, etc.

There's plenty of reasons to think that

No Biblical reasons, though.

She wasn't praying to God or a christian though, she was praying in general to communicate with entities of some sort.

It's generally a bad idea to pray to anyone besides God.

She was praying to an angel.

[callentournies]

First Reformed

[Horsemen]

Religion in Civ 6 is actually stupidly OP

[lejend]

The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard



Matthew 20

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.

“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

------

One of the lessons of this story is that a 'just wage' is the wage you agreed to, not necessarily the wage you want.

[lejend]

10 A little sleep, a little slumber,
a little folding of the hands to rest—

11 and poverty will come on you like a thief
and scarcity like an armed man.

I believe scholars call this the "Protestant Grindset"

[lejend]

[lejend]

https://www.haaretz.com/2014-01-26/ty-a ... aefbb90000

Ousted Libyan dictator Muammar Gadhafi kidnapped and raped hundreds of teenagers in specially built sex dungeons, according to a television documentary to be screened by the BBC next week.

The program, "Storyville: Mad Dog – Gadhafi's Secret World," will be broadcast in the UK on February 3. Previews of the documentary were carried in the British media on Sunday.

Victims and witnesses state in the documentary that Gadhafi would choose his targets on visits to schools or colleges, patting on the head those who caught his eye.

His security officials would then take the victim to one of several specially designed suites of rooms, where they would be abused and raped by the dictator. In one such suite at Tripoli University, there is a fully-equipped gynecological examination room, where victims were tested for sexually transmitted diseases before being sexually abused.

"Some were only 14," recalled one teacher at a Tripoli school. "They would simply take the girl they wanted. They had no conscience, no morals, not an iota of mercy, even though she was a mere child."

Some of the girls were held for years, while others were dumped with appalling injuries.

"One just disappeared and they never found her again, despite her father and brothers searching for her. Another was found three months later, cut, raped and lying in the middle of a park. She had been left for dead."

Some victims were drafted into Gadhafi's unit of private female bodyguards, enduring years of rape and abuse and forced to witness the execution of opponents to the regime.

"Early one morning, we were taken to a closed hall," one former member recalled. "We were to witness the murder of 17 students. We were not allowed to scream. We were made to cheer and shout. To act as though we were delighted by this display. Inside I was crying. They shot them all, one by one."

"The women would first be raped by the dictator then passed on, like used objects, to one of his sons and eventually to high-ranking officials for more abuse," said Benghazi-based psychologist Seham Sergewa, who interviewed victims for the International Criminal Court.

Boys were also forced to serve in Gadhafi's harem. "He was terribly sexually deviant," recalled former chief of protocol Nuri Al Mismari. "Young boys and so on. He had his own boys. They used to be called the 'services group'."

In making the film, the documentary makers also uncovered evidence that Gadhafi used a private hit squad based in Cuba to eliminate opponents, and kept the bodies of victims in freezers.

Baha Kikhia was the wife of a foreign minister who had a fractious relationship with the dictator and went missing. When Gadhafi's regime fell, she found out that her husband's body was among those stored.

"He liked to keep his victims in the refrigerators to look at them now and again," she said. "He would visit his victims. It was as though they were some sort of macabre souvenirs. Something that he could look at and touch to remind himself of his omnipotence. Some had been there as long as 25 years."

Gadhafi was dragged from a drainpipe and shot by rebels in 2011, during Libya's civil war.

Today marks 11 years since Qaddafi was brought to justice.

Do not fret because of those who are evil
or be envious of those who do wrong;
for like the grass they will soon wither,
like green plants they will soon die away.

The wicked plot against the righteous
and gnash their teeth at them;
but the Lord laughs at the wicked,
for he knows their day is coming.

The wicked draw the sword
and bend the bow
to bring down the poor and needy,
to slay those whose ways are upright.
But their swords will pierce their own hearts,
and their bows will be broken.

A little while, and the wicked will be no more;
though you look for them, they will not be found.

[lejend]

The fact that Jonah runs away to sea, with no particular destination in mind, denotes that the sinner fleeing from God follows no definite goal but wanders and strays, prompted by flesh and the world, whenever the devil leads and urges him to go.

The whole life of man until he is converted to Christ is a ruinous labyrinth of wanderings.

[Dolan]

[Snuden]

Better to reign in Hell, than to serve in Heaven.

[lejend]

8 Come and see what the Lord has done,
the desolations he has brought on the earth.

9 He makes wars cease
to the ends of the earth.
He breaks the bow and shatters the spear;
he burns the shields with fire.

10 He says, “Be still, and know that I am God;
I will be exalted among the nations,
I will be exalted in the earth.”

11 The Lord Almighty is with us;
the God of Jacob is our fortress.