Lejend's little corner

[Dolan]

Omfg I just realised the Tower of Babel fable is about multiculturalism and how it fails

galaxy_brain.jpg

How so?

The punishment that the Christian god inflicts on those who dared build the tower and unify all cultures was to strike them with the reality of multiculturalism: division, discord, enclavisation, confusion of signs and meanings. The parable should be read in a reversed way, imo, not as a preachy lesson on how a god teaches his underlings a lesson on what happens if you dare overstep your human condition and act like a god. But rather more like ancient Greek myths were written, as a paradox of transgression, showing what happens if you attempt to escape human nature while chasing some utopian ideal (like Sisyphus tried to outsmart the gods by cheating death).

What is, most likely, at the root of these myths is not the overreactive imagination of some ancient writer, but what they experienced in ancient times, like when Babylon became the largest metropolis in the world, a centre of cosmopolitan bustle and regional trade. It's mythicised history, based on Etemenanki, a ziggurat built in Babylon, that was never completed. To the Hebrews who visited the area, the story of that incompleted tower in Babylon resonated meaningfully with a Hebrew word balal, which means confused.

[XeeleeFlower]

Interesting thoughts

[lejend]

Omfg I just realised the Tower of Babel fable is about multiculturalism and how it fails

galaxy_brain.jpg

Maybe, but I'd need to see some more biblical support for that interpretation, because elsewhere in the Bible God seems pretty pleased with people of every language, tribe and nation living and worshiping together, so there doesn't seem to be anything inherently bad or sinful about "multi-culturalism", as long as the cultures in question differ only in regard to morally insignificant things like language, dress, cuisine, etc.

There's a reason why the conflation of culture and religion (phyletism) is generally frowned upon in Christianity, and why the most fervent opponents of multi-culturalism tend to be rabidly anti-Christian, and that is because Christianity is a universal religion that teaches the unity and equality of the human race, which puts a damper on all kinds of tribalism.

I’d love to see North America’s 100 million Aryan Christians convert to the religion invented by their own race and practiced for a thousand generations before the Jews thought up Christianity.

Odinism! This was the religion for a strong heroic people, the Germanic people, from whose loins we all descended, be we German, English, Scott, Irish, or Scandinavian, in whole or in part.

Odin! Odin! Odin! Was the battle cry of our ancestors; their light eyes ablaze with the glare of the predator, as they swept over and conquered the decadent multi-racial Roman Empire.

And Valhalla does not accept Negroes. There’s a sign over the pearly gates there which reads, “Whites only”.

-- Frazier Glenn Cross, Jr, A White Man Speaks Out, Accessed from the CNN Belief Blog ‘The accused Kansas killer’s neo-pagan religion’

[Jotunir]

Well, according to Flavius Josephus, the construction of the tower was a hubristic act of defiance against God ordered by the arrogant tyrant Nimrod. God gave a punishment for pride.

[Dolan]

Maybe, but I'd need to see some more biblical support for that interpretation, because elsewhere in the Bible God seems pretty pleased with people of every language, tribe and nation living and worshiping together, so there doesn't seem to be anything inherently bad or sinful about "multi-culturalism", as long as the cultures in question differ only in regard to morally insignificant things like language, dress, cuisine, etc.

The tower of Babel myth is probably older than Christianism and it was included in the book of Genesis from the Jewish Torah. I find it unlikely that the Hebrew god would have such a sympathetic view of multiculturalism, when in their books the Jews are considered the chosen people and promised a special fate, above that of other peoples:

You are to be holy to me because I, the Lord, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own.

There's a reason why the conflation of culture and religion (phyletism) is generally frowned upon in Christianity, and why the most fervent opponents of multi-culturalism tend to be rabidly anti-Christian, and that is because Christianity is a universal religion that teaches the unity and equality of the human race, which puts a damper on all kinds of tribalism.

Well, after Christianism has adopted this missionarist, universalist mindset, I can see why today Christians would think in such terms. After all, that was maybe the innovation brought by this religion and why it has been so effective in converting worldwide. Because, as I've argued elsewhere in another topic, Christianism is probably the first psychological religion, that used feelings and emotions to convert people, unlike previous religions which were still collections of cosmological myths and metaphysical expanations of the world. So, yeah, I could see why Christianity would adopt such a universalist doctrine, because it was very effective at spreading itself and infusing its beliefs in people's minds, by crossing many cultural barriers.

[spanky4ever]

Greed is a death sind! And I concour.

[lejend]

Maybe, but I'd need to see some more biblical support for that interpretation, because elsewhere in the Bible God seems pretty pleased with people of every language, tribe and nation living and worshiping together, so there doesn't seem to be anything inherently bad or sinful about "multi-culturalism", as long as the cultures in question differ only in regard to morally insignificant things like language, dress, cuisine, etc.

I find it unlikely that the Hebrew god would have such a sympathetic view of multiculturalism, when in their books the Jews are considered the chosen people and promised a special fate, above that of other peoples:

You are to be holy to me because I, the Lord, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own.

Depends what you mean by multi-culturalism. God chose Israel to serve as a nation of priests and prophets, so in that sense they were set apart from all other nations, but from the beginning of Israel as a nation non-Israelites were included in the community and God took special care to see that they were treated with love and compassion. These were non-Israelites, yet they lived among and were treated no differently than native Israelites. Does that count as multi-culturalism?

Ezekiel 47:13, 21-23 – “These are the boundaries of the land that you will divide among the twelve tribes of Israel as their inheritance... You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners residing among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. In whatever tribe a foreigner resides, there you are to give them their inheritance,” declares the Sovereign LORD.”

Leviticus 19:33-34 – “When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.”

Exodus 23:9 – “Do not oppress a foreigner; you yourselves know how it feels to be foreigners, because you were foreigners in Egypt.”

Deuteronomy 23:16 – “If a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand them over to their master. Let them live among you wherever they like and in whatever town they choose. Do not oppress them.” (These are foreigners escaping slavery/tyranny in their home countries)

Jeremiah 22:3 – “This is what the LORD says: Do what is just and right. Rescue from the hand of the oppressor the one who has been robbed. Do no wrong or violence to the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place.”

-

Deuteronomy 10:18-19 – “He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the foreigner residing among you, giving them food and clothing. And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt.”

Psalm 146:9 – “The LORD watches over the foreigner and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked.”

Deuteronomy 27:19 – “Cursed is anyone who withholds justice from the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow.” Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

Other than idolatry and sexual immorality, no sin seems to provoke God's wrath like mistreating the foreigner, the widow and the fatherless. So that's obviously hard to square with any kind of national supremacism, whether Israelite or Gentile.

[lejend]

[Jotunir]

Maybe, but I'd need to see some more biblical support for that interpretation, because elsewhere in the Bible God seems pretty pleased with people of every language, tribe and nation living and worshiping together, so there doesn't seem to be anything inherently bad or sinful about "multi-culturalism", as long as the cultures in question differ only in regard to morally insignificant things like language, dress, cuisine, etc.

I find it unlikely that the Hebrew god would have such a sympathetic view of multiculturalism, when in their books the Jews are considered the chosen people and promised a special fate, above that of other peoples:

You are to be holy to me because I, the Lord, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own.

Depends what you mean by multi-culturalism. God chose Israel to serve as a nation of priests and prophets, so in that sense they were set apart from all other nations, but from the beginning of Israel as a nation non-Israelites were included in the community and God took special care to see that they were treated with love and compassion. These were non-Israelites, yet they lived among and were treated no differently than native Israelites. Does that count as multi-culturalism?

Ezekiel 47:13, 21-23 – “These are the boundaries of the land that you will divide among the twelve tribes of Israel as their inheritance... You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners residing among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. In whatever tribe a foreigner resides, there you are to give them their inheritance,” declares the Sovereign LORD.”

Leviticus 19:33-34 – “When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.”

Exodus 23:9 – “Do not oppress a foreigner; you yourselves know how it feels to be foreigners, because you were foreigners in Egypt.”

Deuteronomy 23:16 – “If a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand them over to their master. Let them live among you wherever they like and in whatever town they choose. Do not oppress them.” (These are foreigners escaping slavery/tyranny in their home countries)

Jeremiah 22:3 – “This is what the LORD says: Do what is just and right. Rescue from the hand of the oppressor the one who has been robbed. Do no wrong or violence to the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place.”

-

Deuteronomy 10:18-19 – “He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the foreigner residing among you, giving them food and clothing. And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt.”

Psalm 146:9 – “The LORD watches over the foreigner and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked.”

Deuteronomy 27:19 – “Cursed is anyone who withholds justice from the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow.” Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

Other than idolatry and sexual immorality, no sin seems to provoke God's wrath like mistreating the foreigner, the widow and the fatherless. So that's obviously hard to square with any kind of national supremacism, whether Israelite or Gentile.

It's funny, this reminds me of the greek concept of Xenia. It was probably popular all over the eastern mediterranean at the time.

[lejend]

Differences between Christianity and "Critical Social Justice":

Second, Christianity knows that we’re all seeking moral justification, whether we explain it with religious or non-religious language. In other words, all of us are seeking to be considered “righteous,” “good,” and “worthy.” While many accusations of performative “virtue signaling” are, no doubt, accurate, some people actually believe what they are saying. When they loudly lament their whiteness, abase themselves for the smallest infractions (microaggressions), and promise to “do better,” they are motivated by the same drive that led Medieval peasants to wear hair shirts, kiss cathedral steps, and buy indulgences.

Christianity doesn’t scoff at this impulse, but redirects it. Our deep, human urge to be justified, to be declared righteous, can ultimately only be met by God’s forgiveness. It won’t be achieved through a never-ending cycle of grievance and absolution.

Third, Christianity offers radical grace where critical social justice offers us the tempting poison of self-righteousness. While the inner ring of allyship comes at a cost, it is infinitely preferable to being on the outside, where dwell the careless, bigoted, blinded masses. The woke paradigm encourages us to look down on those poor benighted souls just as the Pharisee in Luke 18 looked down on the tax collector: “I thank you, Lord, that I am not like other men.”

The unremitting bitterness and mercilessness of cancel culture flows out of this ideology that draws a sharp line between the bad people and the good people. In contrast, Christianity draws a line between the bad people (all of us) and Jesus. Our hope is not in that we have lived up to God’s righteousness, but in that Jesus did so on our behalf, in his life, death, and resurrection. Thus, every Christian has reason to be overflowing with gentleness and grace: the one who has been shown mercy, shows mercy.

Facing Woke Religion, the Gospel is Still Good News - Neil Shenvi & Pat Sawyer

[fightinfrenchman]

In contrast, Christianity draws a line between the bad people (all of us) and Jesus.

I'm in the inner ring with Jesus actually. It came at a cost (I'm dead) but it was worth it

[lejend]

10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11     there is no one who understands;
    there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
    they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
    not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves;
    their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14     “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16     ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18     “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

“Thus the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sins of the world, was chastised on our behalf, and suffered a penalty He did not owe, but which we owed because of the multitude of our sins; and so He became the cause of the forgiveness of our sins, because He received death for us, and transferred to Himself the scourging, the insults, and the dishonour, which were due to us, and drew down upon Himself the appointed curse, being made a curse for us.”

[fightinfrenchman]

“There is no one righteous, not even one;

I'm righteous

[Jotunir]

“There is no one righteous, not even one;

I'm righteous

I'm righteous as well. I believe in being decent, honourable, honest, just, and to uphold all that is good and true in the world and revile all that is evil and sinister.

[lejend]

"There are only two kinds of men: the righteous who think they are sinners and the sinners who think they are righteous."

Something to make you think

[Jotunir]

"There are only two kinds of men: the righteous who think they are sinners and the sinners who think they are righteous."

Something to make you think

"We men are the monsters now, the time of heroes is dead, Wiglaf - The Christ God has killed it, leaving humankind with nothing but weeping martyrs, fear and shame." - Beowulf.

[lejend]

"There are only two kinds of men: the righteous who think they are sinners and the sinners who think they are righteous."

Something to make you think

"We men are the monsters now, the time of heroes is dead, Wiglaf - The Christ God has killed it, leaving humankind with nothing but weeping martyrs, fear and shame." - Beowulf.

Raping and murdering random people isn't my idea of heroism.

[Jotunir]

Who said anything about raping and murdering random people?

[chris1089]

Vikings

[pecelot]

“If Christ is risen, then nothing else matters. If Christ is not risen, then nothing else matters.”

—Jaroslav Pelikan

his name translates to “pelican”

[Jotunir]

Vikings

That's a negative stereotype... It's hardly something you can rely on when assessing what someone said.

[lejend]

Who said anything about raping and murdering random people?

Well then what are you referring to?

[Jotunir]

Being a hero is a person who is admired for their courage, outstanding achievements, or noble qualities. In essence, for doing something normal people can't do.
Neither "weeping martyrs, fear and shame" nor "raping and murdering random people" qualify.

[harcha]

Being an hero is a person who is admired for their courage, outstanding achievements, or noble qualities. In essence, for doing something normal people can't do.

ftfy

[lejend]

Being a hero is a person who is admired for their courage, outstanding achievements, or noble qualities. In essence, for doing something normal people can't do.

Okay, and Jesus hasn't ended any of that, so Beowulf is obviously mistaken.

Although, apparently the story of Beowulf contains zero mentions of Jesus, so this line in the movie was probably made up by the screenplay writers.