Re: How To Say

[Sargsyan]

@Dolan can i call you a gypsy?

[deleted_user0]

no one is actually making a bigger fuss than you. the way you deal with it is your way. it's up to you. why are you telling other people to deal with it as you do? you're the kind of person who goes like, i was beaten up/abused by dad, and i didn't kill myself. so beating up/abusing children is fine!

gaijin isn't about race anyway, unless you take japanese ethnicity to mean race. it's definitely xenophobic :) which is why a lot of young people in japan are not like that anymore.

people are talking to you, you just ignore everything that's said to you because you've already made up your mind and dug your trenches :)

by your logic, i haven't sen anyone call you gypsie, so it's rich hearing from people who live comfortably in their privilige :)

[fightinfrenchman]

How did this thread start. How did it get so many posts so fast?

[Sargsyan]

[gibson]

When I was in Brussels a few years ago to take up a new job at the European parliament, I went to a shop to close a contract for a phone subscription. When they saw I was from Romania, they looked at me like I was holding a gun and trying to rob them. Then they told me to come another day because they needed to check my credit card. It turned out they had special black lists for Romanians and they first needed to do a lot more background checks than for ordinary citizens. So, in Belgium we were considered 2nd-hand Europeans. And to a certain extent we still are considered 2nd-hand Europeans. So don't tell me stories about your dad or your ancestors. And don't tell me I have no idea about what's it like to be considered subhuman or such. It's rich hearing this from people who live(d) comfortably in Western countries.

Not relevant. This discussion is specifically about racial terminology.

But I don't make a big fuss about this or about the fact that in every corner of the internet everyone loves to make fun of Romanians by calling them "gypsies". Should I sue them? Should calling a Romanian a gypsy be considered a legal offence? Should we ask for special quotas because of that?

I'm glad you dont make a big fuss about it. Welcome to most of the internet who doesn't make a big fuss about being insulted. I've said things to people and had things said to me that are far worse than calling some a nigger or a chink. It's the internet, no one cares. This discussion(for me) isn't about the internet, but rather real life.

What about the Japanese calling everyone else gaijin? And treating everyone outside Japan a gaijin? Are they being racist?

I couldn't care less what other cultures do. If they want to be racist( I don't know if what you're talking about actually is racist or not, nor do I particularly care, but for the sake of argument lets say it is), so be it. I care about what happens in my culture on a day to day basis, I'm not the a world policeman

[Kao]

@mandosrex

[Goodspeed]

@Dolan Your lack of empathy is once again staggering. It must be crippling, actually. Hard to connect with people in a meaningful way.

[duckzilla]

wtf? I just opened the thread to have a nice chat about how lovely dutch streets with their drempels are....

I don't like German roads too much. People tend to overestimate their driving skills and have ridiculously stupid crashes. But then I don't even have a car, so...

[Dolan]

What about the Japanese calling everyone else gaijin? And treating everyone outside Japan a gaijin? Are they being racist?

I couldn't care less what other cultures do. If they want to be racist( I don't know if what you're talking about actually is racist or not, nor do I particularly care, but for the sake of argument lets say it is), so be it. I care about what happens in my culture on a day to day basis, I'm not the a world policeman

Yeah, exactly. This racism theme is something that was born in American culture, or more specifically in Anglo culture. We surely don't give shit about this in Eastern Europe. So it's funny to see Western values applied as rules on this forum. It's even funnier when you claim you have freedom of speech but that freedom is in name only. Gotta tread very carefully when you say some things...

[Dolan]

@Dolan Your lack of empathy is once again staggering. It must be crippling, actually. Hard to connect with people in a meaningful way.

I'm just a bot roleplaying as a human on the internet. Damn, it's getting harder to pass as a human.

[Goodspeed]

Well, isn't it? Do you make friends easily?

[Dolan]

Yes, everyone is my friend the moment I enter the room.

[duckzilla]

This racism theme is something that was born in American culture, or more specifically in Anglo culture. We surely don't give shit about this in Eastern Europe.

Quite confused, I guess I did not see the whole story behind your discussion. Anyway, this comment is either not specific enough on what "this racism theme" exactly is or it suggests that racism is not a relevant topic pretty much everywhere in the world. While there are some distinctive peculiarities in American racism problems, the general dynamics of racism are quite similar to other countries and their minorities (e.g. Sinti and Roma in all of southern/eastern Europe).

People "not giving a shit" on a topic does not mean that they are correct to do so. Sometimes this may just be a hint on them lagging behind in socio-cultural dimensions.


edit: regarding the use of N-word and stuff, I would like to make an addition. If one really takes the time to look closer at where the word comes from. How it was used in the past. How it is used today. And if one really reflects on how oneself would feel being from that group and being called like this. I don't think that words like this are as spoken as easily anymore.
Of course both an investment of time and emotional capacity would be necessary for that. It is really ugly history and, arguably, we still all profit from it.

[Goodspeed]

Yes, everyone is my friend the moment I enter the room.

Do you not show empathy because you think it's weak, or do you genuinely lack it?

Or is it not something you want to talk about? I'm reminded of your statement earlier ITT about people not having the courage to talk about things. Of course, sharing something personal takes actual courage, unlike sprouting this edgy stuff we've all heard a billion times before on an internet forum.

[gibson]

What about the Japanese calling everyone else gaijin? And treating everyone outside Japan a gaijin? Are they being racist?

I couldn't care less what other cultures do. If they want to be racist( I don't know if what you're talking about actually is racist or not, nor do I particularly care, but for the sake of argument lets say it is), so be it. I care about what happens in my culture on a day to day basis, I'm not the a world policeman

Yeah, exactly. This racism theme is something that was born in American culture, or more specifically in Anglo culture. We surely don't give shit about this in Eastern Europe. So it's funny to see Western values applied as rules on this forum. It's even funnier when you claim you have freedom of speech but that freedom is in name only. Gotta tread very carefully when you say some things...

So being respectful to other people isnt a thing in Eastern Europe? "Boo Hoo I cant call umeu a nigger I'm so oppressed sensitive Americans". Funny how every other country I've been in (Canada, Mexico, England, France), people don't go around calling each other niggers. People are generally respectful to each other. The fact that I even have to bother to explain to someone why they shouldnt call a black person a nigger is mind boggling. You dont even have to treat carefully, its very very simple. Dont call a black person a nigger. Dont call an Asain person a chink. What are you even on about? Freedom of speech isnt freedom to say whatever you want without consequence. Its simply freedom to say what you want. You sound like the people who whine when they get fired from their jobs for being racist. "You cant fire me for calling this person a nigger, freedom of speech!" Well you had the freedom to say that, but thanks to good old capitalism your employer realized it was not in their financial interest to employ a racist. All you've done so far is whine about "western values" and how people in your country "dont give a shit", but you haven't given one singular reason why its a good thing to be able to call a black person a nigger without consequence.

[Cometk]

What about the Japanese calling everyone else gaijin? And treating everyone outside Japan a gaijin? Are they being racist?

I couldn't care less what other cultures do. If they want to be racist( I don't know if what you're talking about actually is racist or not, nor do I particularly care, but for the sake of argument lets say it is), so be it. I care about what happens in my culture on a day to day basis, I'm not the a world policeman

Yeah, exactly. This racism theme is something that was born in American culture, or more specifically in Anglo culture. We surely don't give shit about this in Eastern Europe. So it's funny to see Western values applied as rules on this forum. It's even funnier when you claim you have freedom of speech but that freedom is in name only. Gotta tread very carefully when you say some things...

You do have the freedom of speech. Are you seriously expecting no social consequences for anything you say, though? What would even be the point of communication, then?

[Dolan]

Quite confused, I guess I did not see the whole story behind your discussion. Anyway, this comment is either not specific enough on what "this racism theme" exactly is or it suggests that racism is not a relevant topic pretty much everywhere in the world. While there are some distinctive peculiarities in American racism problems, the general dynamics of racism are quite similar to other countries and their minorities (e.g. Sinti and Roma in all of southern/eastern Europe).

People "not giving a shit" on a topic does not mean that they are correct to do so. Sometimes this may just be a hint on them lagging behind in socio-cultural dimensions.


edit: regarding the use of N-word and stuff, I would like to make an addition. If one really takes the time to look closer at where the word comes from. How it was used in the past. How it is used today. And if one really reflects on how oneself would feel being from that group and being called like this. I don't think that words like this are as spoken as easily anymore.
Of course both an investment of time and emotional capacity would be necessary for that. It is really ugly history and, arguably, we still all profit from it.

Well yeah, racism is a topic in the USA and elsewhere precisely because they profited from slavery in the past and now they are perpetually stuck in appologising mode. While Eastern Europe hasn't really had a colonial past, we didn't go around the globe enslaving other peoples. That's why racism is not a topic here, because our history is simply missing this experience, so we aren't beholden to this kind of guilt.

But we do find it weird that Americans or Germans would keep appologising for what their predecessors did. In law, you can't be responsible for crimes that were committed by your parents or grandparents. Why should it be different with slavery or Nazism?

I just think it's time to move on and stop with this guilt blackmailing nonsense.

[Dolan]

You do have the freedom of speech. Are you seriously expecting no social consequences for anything you say, though? What would even be the point of communication, then?

There should be consequences when your statements pertain to the person, like personal accusations which are false and are meant to attack someone's reputation. Like saying someone is a pedophile. Then of course, that person would be entitled under civil law to sue the one making the false accusations.

But just saying words that characterise someone physically? Like "shortie", "whitey", "fattie", "tanned", etc? What's so offensive about that? Especially if those categories already call each other that way? Like blacks call each other sometimes "black" or "nigger"? I get it that there is a connotation with America's history of slavery, but as I argued before, that should be a non-issue today, since you can't be responsible for what your ancestors did. You can only make sure that you don't repeat their mistakes (ie, don't reinstate slavery). I think these two issues should be separated: the issue of having the freedom to say whatever word as long as it's not a legal offence and the issue of historical inheritance.

[Dolan]

Yes, everyone is my friend the moment I enter the room.

Do you not show empathy because you think it's weak, or do you genuinely lack it?

Or is it not something you want to talk about? I'm reminded of your statement earlier ITT about people not having the courage to talk about things. Of course, sharing something personal takes actual courage, unlike sprouting this edgy stuff we've all heard a billion times before on an internet forum.

Empathy is good where it's best suited to the context. You don't go to an interview for a job and appeal to empathy to get employed.

Also, empathy can also be used against you, if someone is emotionally blackmailing you, trying to get something from you by making an appeal to emotion in a context that doesn't really justify it.

[Cometk]

@Dolan i don't really have the time nor energy to explain further, but this should be sufficient: life will be much easier and better for everyone involved when you don't call a black person a nigger

if you tried calling somebody that "physical characteristic" in america guarantee you'd leave with a few missing teeth

[duckzilla]

Well yeah, racism is a topic in the USA and elsewhere precisely because they profited from slavery in the past and now they are perpetually stuck in appologising mode.

You don't seem to understand my point. It is not just the USA which profited from slavery. While France, UK, USA, Germany, Portugal, Spain, Denmark, Sweden, Belgium and some other profited directly from slavery, ALL countries today benefit from slavery in present and past. The very industrial revolution would not have been possible without loads of the cheapest laborers which you were able to find to pick the cotton for the British textile industry. It was the spark of everything which unfolded afterwards. The very reason that you are currently sitting in your room reading my comment on an electrical device is a consequence of this early push to capitalism in its most gruesome form.

While Eastern Europe hasn't really had a colonial past, we didn't go around the globe enslaving other peoples. That's why racism is not a topic here, because our history is simply missing this experience, so we aren't beholden to this kind of guilt.

Also here you seem to miss the point. You don't need to have had a colonial past to acknowledge problems of racism. There is not a single country and not a single person on this planet who does not have a history of slavery and oppression. It just depends on how you call it (serfdom anyone?) and how far you look back. You have a 99% chance to have at least one person in your own lineage which has been a slave and another one who owned one. And racism has always been a thing in regions such as Romania which have been constantly conquered and reconquered for the last 2000 years.
The topic is not missing in your history. Your version of history and the people writing your school textbooks just omit it.

But we do find it weird that Americans or Germans would keep appologising for what their predecessors did.

And again, you miss the point. Germans do not need to apologize and do not do so. They (well, not all) accept the responsibility of what history teaches us all.

Your very thinking in national categories is evidence to the fact that you don't see the general relevance of racism and, more general, of discrimination for humanity. It is this very thinking which is inherently racist. We are one people and we have to learn from the past of all mankind out of pure necessity to find suitable organizational structures for the next hundreds of years without comitting suicide as a species. This is a tremendous task.

[Dolan]

@Dolan i don't really have the time nor energy to explain further, but this should be sufficient: life will be much easier and better for everyone involved when you don't call a black person a nigger

if you tried calling somebody that "physical characteristic" in america guarantee you'd leave with a few missing teeth

Well then the USA is a third world country if you get that sort of reaction for just saying a word.
Or Americans are just too sensitive, idk.

[fightinfrenchman]

@Dolan i don't really have the time nor energy to explain further, but this should be sufficient: life will be much easier and better for everyone involved when you don't call a black person a nigger

if you tried calling somebody that "physical characteristic" in america guarantee you'd leave with a few missing teeth

Well then the USA is a third world country if you get that sort of reaction for just saying a word.
Or Americans are just too sensitive, idk.

What do you think a third world country is?

[Cometk]

@Dolan i don't really have the time nor energy to explain further, but this should be sufficient: life will be much easier and better for everyone involved when you don't call a black person a nigger

if you tried calling somebody that "physical characteristic" in america guarantee you'd leave with a few missing teeth

Well then the USA is a third world country if you get that sort of reaction for just saying a word.
Or Americans are just too sensitive, idk.

nah mate you just refuse to empathize here. you stated earlier how you were discriminated against because you were romanian - that's fucking horrible that that happened to you. just because you might be a resilient person doesn't mean that the prejudiced actions against you are justified, or that they aren't a big deal...

[Dolan]

@Dolan i don't really have the time nor energy to explain further, but this should be sufficient: life will be much easier and better for everyone involved when you don't call a black person a nigger

if you tried calling somebody that "physical characteristic" in america guarantee you'd leave with a few missing teeth

Well then the USA is a third world country if you get that sort of reaction for just saying a word.
Or Americans are just too sensitive, idk.

What do you think a third world country is?

Well, technically, there are no more third countries anymore. The expression was used during the Cold War to refer to those poor countries from Africa and elsewhere which aligned their politics with the USSR. But now it's used to refer to poor countries with low or non-existent industry, weak institutions, low level of public services etc.

I used the expression to imply that a country in which you can get to violence just for saying a word can't be a civilised country.