Re: How To Say

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Nauru Dolan
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Re: How To Say V2

Post by Dolan »

Yeah, I'm fine with the "social consequences". I'd rather keep my language options open than first ask for a referendum on which words I'm allowed to say without someone feeling offended.
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Re: How To Say V2

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Dolan wrote:Yeah, I'm fine with the "social consequences".


You sound like someone who would leave Wildwood
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Re: How To Say V2

Post by occamslightsaber »

Dolan wrote:Yeah, I'm fine with the "social consequences". I'd rather keep my language options open than first ask for a referendum on which words I'm allowed to say without someone feeling offended.


You do that then and keep telling yourself that you're a nonconformist.
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Re: How To Say V2

Post by gibson »

I always assumed when communicating most people made an effort not to disrespect the person they were communicating with but I guess I was incorrect in this assumption.
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Re: How To Say V2

Post by Dolan »

occamslightsaber wrote:
Dolan wrote:Yeah, I'm fine with the "social consequences". I'd rather keep my language options open than first ask for a referendum on which words I'm allowed to say without someone feeling offended.


You do that then and keep telling yourself that you're a nonconformist.
No, it's not about nonconformism, I'm not an edgy teenager who just read Nietzsche. It's about not supporting a kind of moral norms that are based on weakness and, ultimately, infantility. It's about this kind of mentality: "Let's not tackle this subject, because it's too hurtful or likely to stir things up, and we're not able to deal with that".

Same situation with "misgendering" and other such politically correct norms.

gibson wrote:I always assumed when communicating most people made an effort not to disrespect the person they were communicating with but I guess I was incorrect in this assumption.
Nobody should get respect by default, like welfare. It should be something that you earn, like a salary.
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Re: How To Say V2

Post by occamslightsaber »

Dolan wrote:No, it's not about nonconformism, I'm not an edgy teenager who just read Nietzsche. It's about not supporting a kind of moral norms that are based on weakness and, ultimately, infantility. It's about this kind of mentality: "Let's not tackle this subject, because it's too hurtful or likely to stir things up, and we're not able to deal with that".

Same situation with "misgendering" and other such politically correct norms.


What’s infantile is insisting on calling people by ethnic slurs and not by the way they’d like to be addressed as. It’s literally what you see in playgrounds: Name-calling. It’s one thing to suggest that black people shouldn’t be too sensitive about being called a “nigger” because sticks and stones, and quite another to say “people being offended by my name-calling violates my right to free speech”. And no, “misgendering” is not even comparable because that’s a debate about whether pronouns should refer to one’s biological sex or one’s gender identity.

For example, you wouldn’t hear Ben Shapiro insist on calling Caitlyn Jenner as “Bruce”, because “Caitlyn” is how Jenner decided to name himself/herself. He’d still refer to Jenner as a “he” because Shapiro thinks pronouns refer to biological sex, but he agrees that Jenner has an individual right to decide by what name he/she would be addressed as. It’s the same thing for black people. They have a right to decide by what name they would be referred as, not someone else.

Also, for someone who denies being “an edgy teenager who just read Nietzsche,” you sure have an obsession with “weakness”. You sure you don’t want to create the Ubermensch?

Dolan wrote:Nobody should get respect by default, like welfare. It should be something that you earn, like a salary.


No one suggested people should get respect by default. Not disrespecting is not the same thing as giving undue respect. But hey, may be you’re right and everyone on this thread should collectively decide to call you the “edgy gypsy”.
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Re: How To Say V2

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Dolan wrote:Nobody should get respect by default, like welfare. It should be something that you earn, like a salary.


I'm sure you'll earn it someday.
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Re: How To Say V2

Post by duckzilla »

Dolan wrote:You shouldn't have to choose your words based on the likelihood of someone feeling offended.

That would mean that you can choose arbitrarily among your set of known words when you want to describe any person. Do you frequently call your parents asshole/losers/dickhead/bitch?

If you have a variety of words to choose from, e.g. nigger/black/people of color/american, why would you insist on using the most offensive one?

You may think like you're the cool kid because you break the rules and stuff. You even pretend like this would not be your goal - making you even cooler. That talk about "you gotta earn that respect" is just embarrassing. In the end, it all boils down to "I'm not a racist, but..."? and "I'm not a kiddy, but...". Grow up, man.
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Re: How To Say V2

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Cheadar got banned for posting about Toon World but people are just flagrantly defending posting the n-word here, very normal stuff going on.
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Re: How To Say V2

Post by Dolan »

occamslightsaber wrote:What’s infantile is insisting on calling people by ethnic slurs and not by the way they’d like to be addressed as. It’s literally what you see in playgrounds: Name-calling. It’s one thing to suggest that black people shouldn’t be too sensitive about being called a “nigger” because sticks and stones, and quite another to say “people being offended by my name-calling violates my right to free speech”. identity.
But that's what I actually argued for, to solve the sensivity of using this term through a process of psychologically overcoming what you think is actually offensive. It's just perception. There's nothing inherently offensive in the semantics of the word "nigger". It does not describe something offensive. It simply describes how "white people" in the Age of Discovery perceived some people living in other parts of the world. The basic meaning of the word was one related to how they perceived physical differences, otherwise they would have used a different word. It was once used to mean something offensive and you think it should be banned from being used today for implying something offensive, but by doing that you are confirming the original gesture done by slave owners and colonists of using this word offensively. By avoiding the word, you are confirming the power of the word and so perpetuating the idea that the original users were doing something right. I'm not saying you are doing this consciously, but that you are unaware of this effect of confirming the power of the original connotation by supporting the idea that the word shouldn't be used.

I don't see what this has to do with "the way they'd like to be addressed as". No writer ever asked his characters how they would like to be addressed as, what's the point of such a suggestion? You are addressed how you happen to be addressed. The way you react to it is your choice. Unless you're in a formal/legal situation in which there's a protocol (in front of a law court, in a business meeting, in a royal court), I don't see how you're owed to be addressed in a certain way. If someone comes along and calls you a "cardboard box", do you find this offensive? What about superdreadnought cannon train gustav max?

And no, I'm not making a "free speech" sort of argument, that would have been too easy and just a simple cop-out. I don't want to hide behind this kind of cop-outs like "free speech". Too American for me. I'd rather go to the root of the problem and discuss all the implications in depth and length.
And no, “misgendering” is not even comparable because that’s a debate about whether pronouns should refer to one’s biological sex or one’s gender. For example, you wouldn’t hear Ben Shapiro insist on calling Caitlyn Jenner as “Bruce”, because “Caitlyn” is how Jenner decided to name himself/herself. He’d still refer to Jenner as a “he” because Shapiro thinks pronouns refer to biological sex, but he agreed that Jenner has an individual right to decide by what name he/she would be addressed as. It’s the same thing for black people. They have a right to decide by what name they would be referred as, not someone else.
It's the same thing, it's the idea that if you use certain terms to refer to a category of people, you are somehow offending them. Sure, there might be some specifics that are different, but I was referring to what these cases have in common.
No one suggested people should get respect by default. Not disrespecting is not the same thing as giving undue respect.
Yeah well, what I'm challenging here is the view that the word is offensive in the first place. Words can have all sorts of connotations that are not really part of their meaning. Like salami may have a connotation with penis, but the literal meaning doesn't have anything to do with that. "Disrespecting" by using a certain word is meaningless, unless there's a clear context where protocol expects people to use certain labels, like if you meet the queen of the UK you're expected to call her "your majesty". Nothing is going to happen if you call her "your thermostability", she's probably going to look a bit confused, though. However if you called her "your dishonesty" that would be disrespecting because that would imply you're accusing her of something. And by using the word "nigger" I don't think you're implying anything in particular except that your perception is that someone has a darker complexion. The negative connotation comes from how people centuries ago used the word, not from the literal meaning of the word.
But hey, may be you’re right and everyone on this thread should collectively decide to call you the “edgy gypsy”.
That would be perfectly fine, except that they would be calling me something that is not accurate and is verifiably so. It'd be like someone calling you "edgy Eskimo".
You can call me "edgy gypsy", whatever rocks your boat.
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Re: How To Say V2

Post by duckzilla »

Dolan wrote:But that's what I actually argued for, to solve the sensivity of using this term through a process of psychologically overcoming what you think is actually offensive. It's just perception. There's nothing inherently offensive in the semantics of the word "nigger". (...) It was once used to mean something offensive and you think it should be banned from being used today for implying something offensive, but by doing that you are confirming the original gesture done by slave owners and colonists of using this word offensively.

This is your understanding of the word. You don't seem to understand that the word is still in use by white supremacists in the USA. They never stopped referring to blacks with the n-word.

The world does not only revolve around you and your opinion on how fully rational human beings have to behave. "Just perception" is meaningless, since perception becomes reality in the moment where it has real effects (which it does!).
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Re: How To Say V2

Post by Amsel_ »

Reminder that virtually everyone in history was "racist." It's a fairly natural phenomena. The only reason it's shunned nowadays is because the media will depict characters doing or saying racist things, and then show them getting accosted for it. This makes people naturally avoid "politically incorrect" things, because they presume that they'll get treated as badly as the guy in that movie did. It's the media which creates this false reality that we try adhering to, because humans are really bad at understanding that television and movies aren't real. This is also why public racism tends to be done by lower IQ people; it's because they aren't self-aware enough to follow through the same self-defensive reasoning that others do. It also explains why the media depicts racism, satirical or serious, frequently, yet pushes aggressive censorship of "hate speech" - it's because they want it to be a social-phenomena, but they don't want people to think it's normal. This might sound a bit silly, but the mass-media is virtually the only explanation for the complete transvaluation of values that has taken place in the past fifty or so years.

Politicians purposefully set things up like this, where people are getting offended for themselves and for others, where people are bickering over what is and isn't okay to say. They do it because it allows them to weaponize victimhood in order to gain voters, while also appealing to the natural desire to be polite and inoffensive. Once these people are pulled into their "camp," they can have dozens of extra things tacked on to the agenda. Suddenly, they wake up and realize that they have to follow a party-line. They have to support this specific healthcare policy or else they're on the side of the racist enemy. They have to sympathize with a murderer or an assaulter just because his victim said something impolite. This divisiveness, while infinitely damaging to the nation, is good for the ruling class. By dividing people, they can allocate their influence in a pendulum amongst the varying parties. When one party takes power, they pass the "leftist" things that the ruling class supports, and the "leftist" things that the ruling class does not support get bogged down in procedure, or the legal system, or no one ever seems to "find the time" to legislate on it. Then, once the reforms are made, they'll back a "rightist" party, and accomplish all the "rightist" things that the ruling class wants. This is also why they allow governments to naturally get stuck in "gridlock" or "hung parliaments" or anything which causes a general stagnation of policy. This allows the people on each side to simmer, waiting, desperately for a victory.
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Re: How To Say V2

Post by Dolan »

duckzilla wrote:This is your understanding of the word. You don't seem to understand that the word is still in use by white supremacists in the USA. They never stopped referring to blacks with the n-word.

The world does not only revolve around you and your opinion on how fully rational human beings have to behave. "Just perception" is meaningless, since perception becomes reality in the moment where it has real effects (which it does!).

No, it's not my understanding of the word. The word "nigger" was borrowed from Spanish ("negro"/"negra") and French where it literally means black. In its original sense meant nothing but black, with reference to certain populations. The negative connotation was added later by those who used the word to describe populations that they thought were inferior. There was actually no need to even borrow the word from Spanish/French, since it meant the same thing. It was probably borrowed either because the original explorers who described these populations were Spanish/French or because English writers wanted to use an exotic word instead of the plain "black".

This is not about me, I'm not proposing a new meaning of the word based on some kind of personal understanding of its semantics, I'm just saying that what makes it offensive is not the literal meaning, but a certain historical connotation. In itself the word means nothing but black, an exotic, borrowed form from a Latin-based language.

The reason why white supremacists use it is because it's taboo. If you forbid something, you can be 100% sure someone will eagerly try to use that. Like in the Bluebeard folktale, in which this shady guy forbade his wife to open a certain room in his castle. It's his interdiction that made her eventually curious and eager to go into that room and find out something awful. If the word wasn't taboo, nobody would be interested in using it to "offend".
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Re: How To Say V2

Post by Dolan »

Amsel_ wrote:Reminder that virtually everyone in history was "racist." It's a fairly natural phenomena.

Yes, it's all about that anthropological shock that populations which lived in isolation for tens of thousands of years get when they see completely different types of humans elsewhere. This is what the initial Spanish and Portuguese explorers experienced when they first saw natives from the Bahamas island called Guanahani.

We can still see something similar to that natural tendency to mistrust strangers that look completely different in uncontacted tribes like the Sentinelese:
https://youtu.be/ExdEHU02Zk0?t=48

This is a primitive form of what we call "racism", they are rejecting any stranger that doesn't look like them because they perceive strangers are a threat to the cohesion of their tribe. So you could say that the Sentinelese are racist, since they reject anyone who isn't part of their tribe, they even killed strangers who ventured on their island. One cannot but wonder if they are secretely Nazi too. I'm sure some of them must have some Hitler posters in their mud huts.
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Re: How To Say V2

Post by Goodspeed »

It's really just very simple: Don't be a dick. If you behave in a way that you know makes people feel bad and you could avoid with minimal effort, you're being a dick. You're totally allowed to by law, and there may even be cultural value in some people being dicks every now and then, but does it have to be you? No. You're choosing it to be you because you enjoy being a dick. You say you're not some edgy teenager, but you sure are sounding like it. It's fine though, some people are just dicks. No judgment here. Don't be surprised, however, when people show you the door.
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Re: How To Say V2

Post by RefluxSemantic »

It's really just very simple: If someone is a dick to you, just think of him as an asshole and then don't bother anymore. So don't start a whole internet discussion trying to prove this guy was a big meanie to you and try to get others to agree, because that's behaviour that belongs in kindergarden. You're totally allowed to throw a huge tantrum because somewhat said something mean to you, but that's still childish behaviour.
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Re: How To Say V2

Post by Goodspeed »

:hmm: I think calling people out on their shit is important, but agree to disagree on that one I guess
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Re: How To Say V2

Post by Dolan »

Goodspeed wrote:It's really just very simple: Don't be a dick. If you behave in a way that you know makes people feel bad and you could avoid with minimal effort, you're being a dick. You're totally allowed to by law, and there may even be cultural value in some people being dicks every now and then, but does it have to be you? No. You're choosing it to be you because you enjoy being a dick. You say you're not some edgy teenager, but you sure are sounding like it. It's fine though, some people are just dicks. No judgment here. Don't be surprised, however, when people show you the door.
I seriously doubt you understood any of the arguments I wrote here. Because your reaction makes no sense in this context. It only makes sense if you didn't understand one single thing from what I wrote.
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Re: How To Say V2

Post by Goodspeed »

Full disclosure I haven't read all of your posts, but mine isn't necessarily a response to anything, just a simple point about how knowingly being offensive will make other people justifiably think you're a dick.

EDIT: Skimmed the last one
Yeah well, what I'm challenging here is the view that the word is offensive in the first place.
That's not up to you. Like you said, it's perception. And when your perception differs from the perception of others, which will inevitably happen, a mature person takes that into account. An edgy teenager, on the other hand, considers their perception to be the only "correct" one.
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Re: How To Say V2

Post by Dolan »

Your reply is basically:

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Re: How To Say V2

Post by Goodspeed »

Did you have a point with that? Do you think not taking other people's feelings into account should grant you more social credit than it does? Do you think it unjust when people call you out on offensive behavior?
Sucks when reality doesn't go our way, doesn't it?
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Re: How To Say V2

Post by RefluxSemantic »

Goodspeed wrote::hmm: I think calling people out on their shit is important, but agree to disagree on that one I guess

So if a random guy on the street does something dickhead like you engage in a super long discussion with him about how he can't say that and how he's being a big meanie? Normal people just shrug it off and think to themselves that that guy is an asshole. Even in slightly more personal encounters I think it's somewhat odd to make such a big deal about an insult. If you don't have to work with someone you shrug it off.
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Re: How To Say V2

Post by Amsel_ »

Goodspeed wrote:
Yeah well, what I'm challenging here is the view that the word is offensive in the first place.
That's not up to you. Like you said, it's perception. And when your perception differs from the perception of others, which will inevitably happen, a mature person takes that into account. An edgy teenager, on the other hand, considers their perception to be the only correct one.

Would you be offended if I called you the N-word?
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Re: How To Say V2

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Post by fightinfrenchman »

Tired of this bullshit PC censorship where I can't even say "Toon World" without getting cancelled
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Re: How To Say V2

Post by Goodspeed »

RefluxSemantic wrote:
Goodspeed wrote::hmm: I think calling people out on their shit is important, but agree to disagree on that one I guess

So if a random guy on the street does something dickhead like you engage in a super long discussion with him about how he can't say that and how he's being a big meanie? Normal people just shrug it off and think to themselves that that guy is an asshole. Even in slightly more personal encounters I think it's somewhat odd to make such a big deal about an insult. If you don't have to work with someone you shrug it off.
A random guy on the street, no. Someone at work, in my house or online, yeah. Making people aware of how their comments might affect others can help them.

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