Classical music

[Goodspeed]

I've been exploring the genre recently and finding that I've been missing out for a long time.
I've mostly been listening to symphonies. I started out with Beethoven and have not yet found his equal (subjective, of course) but recently I've picked up Mahler and found his stuff harder to listen to but equally powerful. I have a feeling the more I'll listen to it the more I'll come to appreciate it. Yesterday I listened to his 2nd for the first time and been awestruck, mostly at the ... ending. Dot dot dot, because I couldn't really find a word to describe it.

Mozart is my go-to background music guy. Mostly his piano concertos. I'm a sucker for piano, and have found his stuff to be very nice easy listening.

Does anyone dabble? If not, you should give it a shot.

[Riotcoke]

I listen to a spotify playlist of classical music when reading lectures notes, really helps me.

[Dolan]

I dabbled a lot in and since high school. I used to listen a lot to Bach's organ works and Chopin's nocturnes. I later discovered Mozart too and now Mozart is mah homie when it comes to classical (Wolfie gang, Wolfie gang, Wolfie gang).

I say, if a delegation of aliens comes to this planet, we play them this piece



and they don't like it, we open fire. They're not alive anyway. Even pigs like Mozart (https://youtu.be/_RO0QmRvF8c), so if aliens don't pass the test, I'm sorry but they can't get better treatment than pigs.

A few works that shouldn't be missing from any basic bitch guide to classical music:

Luigi Boccherini: String Quintet in E major
Léo Delibes: Pizzicato
Edvard Grieg: Morning Mood
Niccolò Paganini: Caprice in A Minor Opus 24
Edvard Grieg: In the Hall of the Mountain King
Rossini: Guillaume Tell overture
Richard Wagner: Ride Of The Valkyries
Erik Satie: Gymnopedie No. 1
JS Bach: Prelude and Fugue in C Major BWV 846
JS Bach: Suite No. 2 in B minor Badinerie
WA Mozart: Symphony No.40 In G Minor, K.550 - 1. Molto allegro
Antonio Vivaldi: The Four Seasons

There are lots more, from Haydn, Brahms, Strauss, Liszt, Schubert, but not all their works are equally great. Even Bach has lots of pieces that sound boring and a bit too trapped in the spirit of his time. I've yet to hear something by Mozart that is conventional and dull, though.

[Goodspeed]

How does a basic bitch guide to classical music not include Beethoven??

[Goodspeed]

I don't know if I would play Mozart to aliens. His stuff is accessible, sure, but there's something missing for me. It's probably the lack of emotion. His work doesn't make me feel like he poured his everything into it.
I'd probably play the finale of Beethoven's 9th.

[Dolan]

Yeah Beethoven is up there with the greats. Tho, I find his work a bit heavy and generic, compared to Bach and Mozart.

Lack of emotion in Mozart? Maybe you should try listening to his Requiem, that he wrote on his deathbed. You have to be careful which rendition you listen to, there are plenty of bad, slow ones. Von Karajan's and Sir Neville Marriner's are good, Celibidache's rendition is too slow, imo.

[fightinfrenchman]

[Goodspeed]

@Dolan You're not a fan of the romantic era then, I suppose. Yeah, Beethoven's work is typically heavier for sure, as works of that period tend to be. But generic? No way. He revolutionized music perhaps more than anyone else in history.

Lack of emotion in Mozart?

Compared to his romantic era counterparts, yes.

Maybe you should try listening to his Requiem, that he wrote on his deathbed.

I can see how that would add a certain weight. Will definitely give it a listen

[Dolan]

@Goodspeed
Here, I uploaded a decent rendition of the Requiem:

http://s.go.ro/8qe2dsui

Make sure you have good speakers or headphones.
A recording is a second-hand thing that can't capture the richness of actually being there when the orchestra and choir play it, but this is better than some muffled upload on Youtube.

[Goodspeed]

Ah it's a mass. I've been meaning to listen to Missa Solemnis but putting it off because it's a mass (which, I know, shouldn't matter).
Thanks for uploading. I usually see what's on spotify and then check online whether those are generally considered good recordings or not. Usually can find a good one on there, but if not Youtube videos can be pretty high quality these days too.

Have you heard it live?

[Riotcoke]

[Riotcoke]

[Dolan]

Ah it's a mass. I've been meaning to listen to Missa Solemnis but putting it off because it's a mass (which, I know, shouldn't matter).
Thanks for uploading. I usually see what's on spotify and then check online whether those are generally considered good recordings or not. Usually can find a good one on there, but if not Youtube videos can be pretty high quality these days too.

Have you heard it live?

I don't think I listened to it being performed live. I've once been to an event where they played some Mozart pieces, but I can't remember which (some piano works). Yeah, it makes a big difference, if it's played well in a concert hall with good acoustics and you have a good spot in the audience. Imo, it makes a big difference for compositions with lots of strings and choir parts, not so much for piano works, in which the sound comes from one source only.

Yeah, there are HQ Youtube uploads too, though Google still compresses their audio down to cut server costs. Spotify has a premium option for HQ too (320kbps Ogg Vorbis format), so it's better than what YT can serve. Some people, including myself, claim they can hear clear differences between a 320kbps encoded MP3 (or other format) and uncompressed WAV or lossless compression FLAC. Tho, I can mostly hear these differences in sound staging and imaging for songs made in the studio, not for live recordings.

Yw.

[Goodspeed]

Yeah we heard Beethoven's 7th live recently, which was great. They also played his piano concerto #4 which, I see your point about piano works being performed live. To be fair the orchestra wasn't idle by any means, and it is one of Beethoven's better non-symphonic works (imo) so it was still great. I guess I wouldn't go to a Chopin concert though.

Yeah, there are HQ Youtube uploads too, though Google still compresses their audio down to cut server costs. Spotify has a premium option for HQ too (320kbps Ogg Vorbis format), so it's better than what YT can serve. Some people, including myself, claim they can hear clear differences between a 320kbps encoded MP3 (or other format) and uncompressed WAV or lossless compression FLAC. Tho, I can mostly hear these differences in sound staging and imaging for songs made in the studio, not for live recordings.

I recall testing this myself a long time ago, when I was spending way too much money on my audio setup, and finding that I couldn't hear a difference. I don't remember how I tested this though. Might've used the wrong music. As you said, it needs to be a high quality (studio) recording. Might try that again.

I listened to Requiem and it was definitely more emotional/heavy than what I'm used to from Mozart. But I've mostly been listening to his piano concertos (and his later symphonies) which are hard to compare to a mass, since there are no vocals in them. Ultimately though I wouldn't listen to it again. I guess it didn't make a lasting impression. Maybe the religious vibe doesn't do it for me. I listened to (part of) Beethoven's Missa Solemnis afterwards and wasn't into that either.

[Dolan]

Yeah, some people don't see any discernable difference between lossless audio formats (like FLAC or WAV) and lossy ones (like high-bitrate MP3). I was able to tell the difference between a FLAC and a high-bitrate MP3 of the same song, by doing a blind test. I noticed the FLAC kept better depth and imaging in the sound.

As for the Requiem, not sure what you meant when you said that Mozart doesn't have much emotion in his music. And since you said you find that in Beethoven, I assume you're looking for something very particular. Beethoven is about the romanticist projection of the heroic individual set against external forces limiting his will. So his works tend to have this sombre, heroic tone that people associate with the "Beethoven sound". Mozart couldn't be further from that, though he does have some compositions in the romanticist mold. Mozart is about playfulness, music for music's sake, joy for joy's sake, prodigy kid inventiveness.

I mentioned the Requiem because I thought you associated Mozart's typical playful profile with lack of emotion, but that's just another kind of emotion, imo. The Requiem is different from his typical works, since it's a more mature work, a deathbed legacy work that is more concerned with the tragedy of mortality and a possible glimmer of salvation. So, in this respect, it goes more in the direction of Beethoven's works.

I wouldn't place much emphasis on the religious dimension of the work. After all, many great composers were the product of their age and they paid lip service to the paradigm of the day. Not to mention that all these works were commissioned by clients who wanted to use them on very specific occasions. So if the client asked for a religious work, that's what the composers delivered. Mozart is known to have been conventionally religious, declaring his allegiance to the belief system of his day, while on the other hand joining the Masonic order, which came to be at odds with the Catholic church later on. So he was probably looking for answers in other places too.

There are parts of the Requiem I don't like either, like those which sound too much like opera stuff (Tuba Mirum, Benedictus). Also only the first 10 parts (up to and including Hostias) were composed by Mozart or based on his notes, the rest are probably his pupil's work/adaptation. He did a great job with the last movement, though, I think (Lux aeterna).

[Horsemen]

[Goodspeed]

Yeah, some people don't see any discernable difference between lossless audio formats (like FLAC or WAV) and lossy ones (like high-bitrate MP3). I was able to tell the difference between a FLAC and a high-bitrate MP3 of the same song, by doing a blind test. I noticed the FLAC kept better depth and imaging in the sound.

Do you remember which song and do you happen to still have the files?

As for the Requiem, not sure what you meant when you said that Mozart doesn't have much emotion in his music. And since you said you find that in Beethoven, I assume you're looking for something very particular. Beethoven is about the romanticist projection of the heroic individual set against external forces limiting his will. So his works tend to have this sombre, heroic tone that people associate with the "Beethoven sound".

It depends on the work. Your description sounds like the "Eroica" (title says it all) but I have very different interpretations of his other symphonies and so did he, going by the titles. The finale of the 9th is an "Ode to Joy", the 6th is all about nature, etc. But interpretations and titles aside, there's a sense of urgency in his works. A kind of tension that doesn't seem to be there when I listen to pre-romantic works (I have the same issue with Bach's stuff, though I haven't listened to a lot of it). Or rather, it's there, just not as much. Maybe this factor makes the work feel more relatable to me, makes me connect to it in a more meaningful way.

The build up to the storm (and the storm itself) in Beethoven's 6th, though not my favorite part of the symphony, is a good example of what I mean.
spotify:track:0nnkZAprc7aWZZFdG75AT2 (and the following track)

Mozart couldn't be further from that, though he does have some compositions in the romanticist mold. Mozart is about playfulness, music for music's sake, joy for joy's sake, prodigy kid inventiveness.

That sounds about right, yeah. And that, to me, is great for background music. But it's clear to me at this point that when I really sit down to listen to something, I'm looking for something more... "intense" let's say.

I mentioned the Requiem because I thought you associated Mozart's typical playful profile with lack of emotion, but that's just another kind of emotion, imo. The Requiem is different from his typical works, since it's a more mature work, a deathbed legacy work that is more concerned with the tragedy of mortality and a possible glimmer of salvation. So, in this respect, it goes more in the direction of Beethoven's works.

Maybe it takes a few more listens for it to really get through to me. I think this mass thing is just not for me though. Maybe I prefer instrumental stuff, with the occasional vocals but not too much. The Missa Solemnis didn't do it for me either, so it's clearly not related to the composer.

There are parts of the Requiem I don't like either, like those which sound too much like opera stuff (Tuba Mirum, Benedictus). Also only the first 10 parts (up to and including Hostias) were composed by Mozart or based on his notes, the rest are probably his pupil's work/adaptation. He did a great job with the last movement, though, I think (Lux aeterna).

Which are your favorite parts other than the last movement? I won't listen to the whole thing again any time soon but if you cherry pick some movements I'm probably game.

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[fightinfrenchman]

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[fightinfrenchman]

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[Goodspeed]

spotify:track:4Ocxw6uK427Z38HATp2ghs
I wouldn't often apply the word "catchy" to classical music, but the second movement of that symphony qualifies imo

[Dolan]

Do you remember which song and do you happen to still have the files?

https://storage.rcs-rds.ro/links/aae219 ... 07d44b3e0b
I can notice a difference in how the voices are imaged, how they resonate and how crisp those pew-pew and whipping sounds sound. It's barely noticeable, though, so no wonder most people are fine with 320kbps MP3s. FLAC is better not just for sound range, though, it's great for archiving too: there is such a thing as bit rot and FLAC's support for checksum allows for using tools to prevent bit rot. But that might be a bit too autistic and technical for most users who are fine with just listening to their stuff "in da cloud".

...interpretations and titles aside, there's a sense of urgency in his works. A kind of tension that doesn't seem to be there when I listen to pre-romantic works (I have the same issue with Bach's stuff, though I haven't listened to a lot of it). Or rather, it's there, just not as much. Maybe this factor makes the work feel more relatable to me, makes me connect to it in a more meaningful way.

Yeah, Mozart's works are less focused on individual internal struggles, as I said, it's not about the romantic hero pitted against his fate, etc. Many of his works were commissioned by royal courts or the aristocracy who wanted to listen to entertaining music, not some individual's internal turmoil. It really reflects the difference between the social atmosphere of the 18th century, in which Mozart composed, and that of the 19th century, when most of Beethoven's works were written. The 19th century was shaken by political upheaval, revolutions, wars of conquest, Napoleonic will to power, etc etc. That's the century for which Beethoven composed. Mozart had the luxury to focus on music alone, to write music for its own sake in a century that was not as troubled as the 19th (excluding its last decade, maybe).

The build up to the storm (and the storm itself) in Beethoven's 6th, though not my favorite part of the symphony, is a good example of what I mean.
spotify:track:0nnkZAprc7aWZZFdG75AT2 (and the following track)

Yeh, that's what you'd expect to hear from a heavily shaken century, in which the old order was clashing with attempts to establish new kinds of order.

Maybe it takes a few more listens for it to really get through to me. I think this mass thing is just not for me though. Maybe I prefer instrumental stuff, with the occasional vocals but not too much. The Missa Solemnis didn't do it for me either, so it's clearly not related to the composer.

I don't listen much to classical stuff with vocals either, but I think some kinds are pretty cool. Oratorios and motets, for example, have the potential to reach heights of musical expression that could not be reached with only instruments. You can't really substitute polyphonic vocals with anything else, they just have a different resonance and make the sound alive and more human than an instrument could. On the other hand, I don't understand opera and it just bores me to no end.
Polyphonic choirs can be pretty kewl, though, listen to some Bulgarian polyphonic choir works and see for yourself.

There are parts of the Requiem I don't like either, like those which sound too much like opera stuff (Tuba Mirum, Benedictus). Also only the first 10 parts (up to and including Hostias) were composed by Mozart or based on his notes, the rest are probably his pupil's work/adaptation. He did a great job with the last movement, though, I think (Lux aeterna).

Which are your favorite parts other than the last movement? I won't listen to the whole thing again any time soon but if you cherry pick some movements I'm probably game.

Introitus, Kyrie, Dies Irae, Rex Tremendae, Confutatis, Lacrimosa, even Offertorium/Domine Jesu is kinda ok, I also like the serene Hostias movement, the ominous Agnus Dei and the second part of Lux Aeterna.

[Goodspeed]

Do you remember which song and do you happen to still have the files?

https://storage.rcs-rds.ro/links/aae219 ... 07d44b3e0b
I can notice a difference in how the voices are imaged, how they resonate and how crisp those pew-pew and whipping sounds sound. It's barely noticeable, though, so no wonder most people are fine with 320kbps MP3s. FLAC is better not just for sound range, though, it's great for archiving too: there is such a thing as bit rot and FLAC's support for checksum allows for using tools to prevent bit rot. But that might be a bit too autistic and technical for most users who are fine with just listening to their stuff "in da cloud".

Yeah I don't hear a difference.

Yeah, Mozart's works are less focused on individual internal struggles, as I said, it's not about the romantic hero pitted against his fate, etc. Many of his works were commissioned by royal courts or the aristocracy who wanted to listen to entertaining music, not some individual's internal turmoil.

I agree with the point you're making about Mozart, but again, individual internal struggles are not the only theme of romantic music. And regardless of what inspired a composer to write something, in the end its interpretation is in the eye of the beholder. Arguably, good music doesn't have just the one interpretation. It just makes you feel something. It's almost a shame that composers felt the need to title and describe their works, and indeed some have opted not to.

I don't listen much to classical stuff with vocals either, but I think some kinds are pretty cool. Oratorios and motets, for example, have the potential to reach heights of musical expression that could not be reached with only instruments. You can't really substitute polyphonic vocals with anything else, they just have a different resonance and make the sound alive and more human than an instrument could.

Sure. I'd still rather listen to instrumental stuff though, I think. Having said that, the choral finale of Beethoven's 9th really resonated with me and I didn't mind it in Mahler's 2nd either. So I don't know why and when it works for me, but it can. Only when used sparingly, perhaps.

On the other hand, I don't understand opera and it just bores me to no end.

I also don't understand opera. I was actually at one pretty recently (Carmen), and while I wasn't bored necessarily, I did grapple with the question "Why?". Why would you write serious music and then deliberately cheapen it with some cheesy story? The vocals didn't do it for me, the music was at times great, but the story was just a distraction. It's about as silly as porn with a story. Just why

[Dolan]

Yeah, Mozart's works are less focused on individual internal struggles, as I said, it's not about the romantic hero pitted against his fate, etc. Many of his works were commissioned by royal courts or the aristocracy who wanted to listen to entertaining music, not some individual's internal turmoil.

I agree with the point you're making about Mozart, but again, individual internal struggles are not the only theme of romantic music. And regardless of what inspired a composer to write something, in the end its interpretation is in the eye of the beholder. Arguably, good music doesn't have just the one interpretation. It just makes you feel something. It's almost a shame that composers felt the need to title and describe their works, and indeed some have opted not to.

I'm not saying that everyone who composed music during the Romantic period got a memo with the required boxes they needed to tick in their works. Like you need to tick "individual struggle", "fascination with nature and the mystical" or "nations' new-found freedom to determine their fate". But you can't say that they created music as if they lived above their own zeitgeist. So while I agree that major composers' creations don't lend themselves to simplistic interpretations and themes, that doesn't mean their works were completely abstracted from the concerns of their time. And Beethoven is no exception to this, in fact his music really defines that period and is in tune with the prevailing themes of Romanticism.
Any way you look at it, there is a clear difference in thematic focus between music from the 18th century and that from the 19th. Music is clearly getting more concerned with the autobiographical, the subjective point of view on the world, and gradually you can see nostalgia for past historical periods setting in. As the industrial revolution asserted itself and the landscape of cities and town were transformed, Romantics sought solace in nature and a mystified past.

I get the idea that since music speaks to emotions, it's not necessarily created to illustrate some abstract ideas. But every composer lived in a certain period of time and was entangled in a certain environment that left a mark on their psyche. It's this fact that all the creators from that time lived in a similar environment which led to the emergence of Romantic ideas and themes, not some kind of commonly shared abstract programme that they were all trying to materialise through their works.