Classical music

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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Classical music

Post by Goodspeed »

But interpretations and titles aside, there's a sense of urgency in his works. A kind of tension that doesn't seem to be there when I listen to pre-romantic works (I have the same issue with Bach's stuff, though I haven't listened to a lot of it). Or rather, it's there, just not as much. Maybe this factor makes the work feel more relatable to me, makes me connect to it in a more meaningful way.
And regardless of what inspired a composer to write something, in the end its interpretation is in the eye of the beholder. Arguably, good music doesn't have just the one interpretation. It just makes you feel something.
I've been trying to make the point that it doesn't necessarily matter what was going on in the composer's psyche. It's interesting to talk about but should be kept as separate as possible from interpretation of the music imo. Good music is always relevant, speaks to basic human emotions that aren't part of any particular zeitgeist. And sure enough there have been plenty of disagreements about how to interpret works from the romantic era. But regardless of interpretation, Beethoven's stuff is distinctly different from Mozart's and the change is something I enjoy. And I guess I'm trying to say the change isn't just thematic.
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Re: Classical music

Post by RefluxSemantic »

Please dont get caught in the trap of thinking classical music is all about Beethoven and Mozart. There are many other amazing composers. In classical music the sky is the limit and there is so much more to explore, so dont limit yourself.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Classical music

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RefluxSemantic wrote:Please dont get caught in the trap of thinking classical music is all about Beethoven and Mozart. There are many other amazing composers. In classical music the sky is the limit and there is so much more to explore, so dont limit yourself.
The discussion is really about the differences between romantic and pre-romantic music. Beethoven and Mozart just happen to be good references in such a discussion.
Do you have any favorites to recommend?
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Re: Classical music

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Goodspeed wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:Please dont get caught in the trap of thinking classical music is all about Beethoven and Mozart. There are many other amazing composers. In classical music the sky is the limit and there is so much more to explore, so dont limit yourself.
The discussion is really about the differences between romantic and pre-romantic music. Beethoven and Mozart just happen to be good references in such a discussion.
Do you have any favorites to recommend?
Honestly, for me classical music is often more about musical exploration than anything else. I like many composers though. For example Rachmaninoff, Shostakovich, Paganini, Tschaikovsky. The thing with Mozart and Beethoven is that there music is often so overused that there's little exploration going on.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Classical music

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RefluxSemantic wrote:I like many composers though. For example Rachmaninoff, Shostakovich, Paganini, Tschaikovsky.
Any specific (types of) works you like from these guys?
Honestly, for me classical music is often more about musical exploration than anything else. The thing with Mozart and Beethoven is that there music is often so overused that there's little exploration going on.
I'd dispute that. Especially in the case of Mozart (who was rather prolific), the stuff that is so overused anyone would recognize it is a tiny percentage of their total output. Of course, if you go to their Spotify pages and go to the top 10 most listened to you'll find stuff you already heard. But this goes for most famous composers.
I spent a lot of time exploring both Beethoven and Mozart (and others, for the record), am not nearly done, and most of it I've never heard before.
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Re: Classical music

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@Goodspeed if you had some time, would you mind putting together a playlist of some classical pieces that you particularly enjoy?

i feel i have a good understanding of a lot of genres of contemporary music but in regards to classical music i'm a complete neophyte. it would be nice to have something that i could have on for a casual listen first before committing to fully experiencing
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Re: Classical music

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RefluxSemantic wrote: Honestly, for me classical music is often more about musical exploration than anything else.
what does musical exploration in classical music mean to you? what does that sound like?

i understand the sounds that are common in contemporary experimental music but i have no idea what it means for a classical piece to be explorative

(sorry if my question comes off brusque i mean it in an absolutely sincere way)
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Greece BrookG
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Re: Classical music

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Most eras in the History of Western Music, tried to differentiate from the aesthetics and the beliefs of the previous.
Medieval ages started expanding monophonic chants and songs by adding extra voices, thus exploring the possibilities of polyphony. Highly influenced by church in most regions of Europe.

Then, during Renaissance polyphony reaches its highest peak. Majestic choirs, musical works that delve in numerous techniques of counterpoint, increasing number of voices starting from 3 or 4 to even a 40-part motet by Thomas Tallis (Spem in Alium). Again church is dictating the route music can take, however, secular music exists in courts.

Baroque is following with the birth of opera. Secular music starts to become more frequent with the human as a concept becoming central, yet the faith in god is still prevalent. Instrumental music gains more and more ground. Violin is the king oposed to the human voice or the lute from the previous era. Complexity and excessive embellishment in music making and composing is the characteristic.

In the Classical music era, people want to abolish this overcomplication and garrulity. The harmony is simple, melodies are composed with a basic accompaniement. Composers still make music because they are hired by the aristocrats. New genres arise: You have in chamber music the piano trio or the string quartet. The first symphonic works are written. Sonata form is created. Technological advances have occurred and the first keyboard instrument steadily take place to the broader audience, only to make fortepiano (a predecessor of the modern piano) the new norm.

There is gray area at the end of Classical and early Romantic era. Beethoven slowly breaks the norm and make music for the sake of it, instead of being asked by someone. He, along with others like Schubert or Schumann, explore extensively the harmony, with far modulations and prolongated cadences.

Romantic era is still an era where tonal music is present. Composers are now these artistic figures, probably following the Beethoven prototype. The aesthetics have changed their focus towards a glorification of nature, the human emotion, the individual itself, as well as idolising the past (medieval ages). In the discourse, comes the concept of nation, since the borders are mostly fixed. Therefore, the people look back to their traditions, fairytales, and in each country you have an increase of a national spirit. All these parameters, are portrayed in music from the programmatic genre. A big part of the pieces composed are meant to visualise poems, the countryside, mythical places from fairytales and so on.
Correlation doesn't mean causation.
http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Classical music

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Cometk wrote:@Goodspeed if you had some time, would you mind putting together a playlist of some classical pieces that you particularly enjoy?

i feel i have a good understanding of a lot of genres of contemporary music but in regards to classical music i'm a complete neophyte. it would be nice to have something that i could have on for a casual listen first before committing to fully experiencing
It's a very diverse genre, and I'm sure we have different taste, but I would start with Beethoven. I'm biased, but I think his work is a pretty perfect gateway into the genre. I found it uniquely accessible, yet not at all lacking in depth (as is usually the case with accessible things). But of course it's easy for something to seem accessible to someone who is a fan of it.

I like romantic era symphonies, personally, for reasons I mentioned earlier ITT. Starting with the best of Beethoven's symphonies, I would listen to them in the following order:
#6 (~40m): A generally uplifting ode to nature.
#3 (~50m): A more intense, and mostly technically beautiful (imo) piece about a hero's struggles, more specifically Napoleon.
Ferdinand Ries, Beethoven’s student and friend, recalled seeing the Italianate title page of a new symphony in the Spring of 1804, entitled, simply, “Buonaparte” on top and “Luigi von Beethoven” at the bottom. His dramatic account continues on the day [May 18, 1804] when Ries brought news that Napoleon had declared himself emperor: “Thereupon [Beethoven] flew into a rage and cried out: ‘He will trample all the Rights of Man and only indulge his ambition 
 and become a tyrant.’ Beethoven went to the table, seized the title page from the top, tore it up completely and threw it on the floor. The first page was written out anew and 
 received the title Sinfonia eroica [Heroic Symphony].”
#7 (~30m): An uplifting, melodic piece that seems to sometimes overindulge in romance.
#5 (~30m): A musically stunning and intense piece. You've probably heard the main theme of the first movement.
#9 (~1:10): Perhaps the most influential work of music ever written. The first major symphony that features vocals, as well as the immortal "Ode to Joy" theme you've probably heard before (it's the EU anthem, among other things).

This playlist has all of them: spotify:playlist:2w1MQKIBcKqFOaflPNYFHR
And like I mentioned in the OP, for more easy listening I would recommend any and all of Mozart's piano concertos (spotify:playlist:2h36cQsOTlHbkj2FrSSdnX). But in general, pre-romantic symphonies also qualify (I particularly enjoy Haydn's).

If none of that is intense enough for you, try Mahler's 2nd: spotify:track:6RAqKZab0eGXxheJPZKDPn (~1:30)
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Re: Classical music

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Cometk wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote: Honestly, for me classical music is often more about musical exploration than anything else.
what does musical exploration in classical music mean to you? what does that sound like?

i understand the sounds that are common in contemporary experimental music but i have no idea what it means for a classical piece to be explorative

(sorry if my question comes off brusque i mean it in an absolutely sincere way)
I think its the most fun when you listen to something new or fresh.

Pop music is made to be fun after listening to it a lot, hearing it all over the radio and memorizing the lyrics. I recall they did a research where they found that if people hear a pop song often enough they will end up liking it. Producers just buy playtime at radios to force a song to be a hit.

Classical music to me is the opposite. The first few times you listen to it are the best. The more you listen to it, the more that exciting twist becomes dull and (obviously) predictable. You get used to it and it effectively turns into pop music.

The unfortunate thing is that youtube prefers suggesting the already well known stuff.
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Re: Classical music

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RefluxSemantic wrote:
Cometk wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote: Honestly, for me classical music is often more about musical exploration than anything else.
what does musical exploration in classical music mean to you? what does that sound like?

i understand the sounds that are common in contemporary experimental music but i have no idea what it means for a classical piece to be explorative

(sorry if my question comes off brusque i mean it in an absolutely sincere way)
I think its the most fun when you listen to something new or fresh.

Pop music is made to be fun after listening to it a lot, hearing it all over the radio and memorizing the lyrics. I recall they did a research where they found that if people hear a pop song often enough they will end up liking it. Producers just buy playtime at radios to force a song to be a hit.

Classical music to me is the opposite. The first few times you listen to it are the best. The more you listen to it, the more that exciting twist becomes dull and (obviously) predictable. You get used to it and it effectively turns into pop music.

The unfortunate thing is that youtube prefers suggesting the already well known stuff.
You are describing the mere exposure effect. It applies to practically anything. However, there is a limit to that. Too much exposure will result into boredom and lack of novelty. Discovering new unexpected elements in music plays a big role in pleasure.
Correlation doesn't mean causation.
http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Classical music

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Re: Classical music

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@Goodspeed I hope that by saying something to the effect of "Mozart makes for good easy listening" you're not implying that Mozart's music lacks depth or that it's mostly entertaining and ornamental.

Mozart's music often shifts mood from a happy tone to a sadder one, not so much because it's meant to be emotionally volatile. During the classical era, they were very fond of a philosophical concept called coincidentia oppositorum (unity of opposites), which explains existence based on contradictory dualities.

For example, in this part of Lacrimosa (from 2:20 onwards, for a few seconds), while the male voices plunge into lower and lower depths of tone, the female voices rise higher and higher, then they both meet somewhere in the middle and continue descending. This is not just a musical device used to create a superficial illusion of depth, it's part of Mozart's "musical ideology" by which he was trying to portray life as a contradiction between opposites.



Mozart was all about laughing through tears and crying through laughter. That's why his music sometimes swings mood from one extreme to another pretty fast. This could be mistaken for playfulness and frivolousness, but it was a way to explore the human psyche through music.
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Greece BrookG
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Re: Classical music

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Fun fact: Mozart didn't write his requiem. A student of his completed the largest part of the work. Mozart finished himself the Introitus, parts of the fugue in Kyrie and Dies Irae, 8 bars of Lacrimosa and Offertorium.
Correlation doesn't mean causation.
http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

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Re: Classical music

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@BrookG
No, lol, he wrote most of it: the first 8 movements up to Lacrimosa (which was completed based on his first 8 bars) and briefly outlined Offertorium and Hostias.
So what was left was the last 4 movements: Sanctus and Agnus Dei - which his student Sussmayr claimed as his own compositions, Benedictus (which may have been a joint composition, either based on Mozart's drafts or Sussmayr's rework of a previously contracted musician), and Lux Aeterna which was made by Sussmayr, but it's basically variations on the Kyrie eleison fugue, written by Mozart, using different lyrics.
So only 3 out of 14 movements are known to have been written by someone else. And a few more have been finished by his student based on his drafts, they were basically missing some instrumental parts here and there. No wonder that those are also the worst parts of the Requiem (Sanctus and Benedictus). Sussmayr did a great job with Agnus Dei and Lux Aeterna, though, he should be given credit for it.
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Greece BrookG
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Re: Classical music

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don't no lol me I have a Master in Musicology and have played the piece many times, both in orchestra and in choir
Correlation doesn't mean causation.
http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

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Greece BrookG
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Re: Classical music

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Writing a draft is very far from having a complete version. Orchestration is a very complex task.
Correlation doesn't mean causation.
http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Classical music

Post by Goodspeed »

Dolan wrote:@Goodspeed I hope that by saying something to the effect of "Mozart makes for good easy listening" you're not implying that Mozart's music lacks depth or that it's mostly entertaining and ornamental.
No I just mean that I like it for easy listening. Background music at work or when playing a game or something. Like I said earlier, I generally don't seem to connect to it emotionally as much.
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Re: Classical music

Post by Dolan »

Also @Goodspeed
Kyrie eleison (2nd movement from the Requiem) is another example of a composition in which Mozart goes on a rollercoaster of emotions, from a somber/tragic start to uplifting/optimistic heights:



Coincidentia oppositorum, at work, right there.
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Re: Classical music

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BrookG wrote:Writing a draft is very far from having a complete version. Orchestration is a very complex task.
Yeah, but the Requiem is mostly focused on vocals, the instrumental parts are not meant to stand out by themselves. In fact, if you played it, you probably noticed the instruments never take center stage in the performance, it's always the choir which is the center piece. The instruments mostly provide backing and emphasise the progression of vocals.
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Re: Classical music

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Dolan wrote:
BrookG wrote:Writing a draft is very far from having a complete version. Orchestration is a very complex task.
Yeah, but the Requiem is mostly focused on vocals, the instrumental parts are not meant to stand out by themselves. In fact, if you played it, you probably noticed the instruments never take center stage in the performance, it's always the choir which is the center piece. The instruments mostly provide backing and emphasise the progression of vocals.
lmao that is incorrect. Orchestra always sits in the front and choir in the back. Just watch most performances in youtube. Only in operas orchestra sits below the stage in a pit. As for the music of the instruments, the lines are very complex and distributing them between all the orchestral instruments to create the various colours is an art itself.
Correlation doesn't mean causation.
http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

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Nauru Dolan
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Re: Classical music

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Don't take what I said literally, lol. I meant figuratively, in the Requiem, the orchestral parts are not the main focus of the work, the vocals are. I'm not dismissing the instrumental parts, but frankly those parts written by Sussmayr were not the best from the whole composition. In at least 2 movements, though, I think he did a great job. Overall, though, more than 70% of the Requiem was composed by Mozart and that includes the best parts of it. That's why I usually skip Benedictus and Sanctus if I happen to listen to it.
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Greece BrookG
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Re: Classical music

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It's really destructive to dismiss the 50% of a masterpiece. (referring to the orchestral part) You clearly don't know the content, I suggest you to study the full score. As for the authorship of the piece, just look in wikipedia.
Correlation doesn't mean causation.
http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

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Nauru Dolan
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Re: Classical music

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Well yeah, Wiki says Sussmayr claimed only Sanctus and Agnus Dei as his own parts. Not sure who wrote Benedictus. There was another guy who was hired by Mozart's wife to complete the work and he failed and gave it back. Then his student was commissioned with finishing the whole mass. And he claimed only 2 parts of it.
That means he must have had some drafts left over by Mozart, based on which he finished the incomplete parts of Hostias, Offertorium, Lacrimosa etc. Lux Aeterna, though, it was probably his own interpretation of how Mozart would have finished it. Experts say it was unlikely for Mozart to repeat himself so much in the last part.

What is known, though, is that Mozart's wife destroyed lots of manuscripts, for some reason. Maybe Mozart liked to borrow and remix lots of things from other composers, who knows, and she didn't want posterity to think he was just a remixer.
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Nauru Dolan
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Re: Classical music

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BrookG wrote:It's really destructive to dismiss the 50% of a masterpiece. (referring to the orchestral part) You clearly don't know the content, I suggest you to study the full score.
How many people are able to hear or distinguish the violin or trumpet parts in the Requiem?
You need a trained ear to hear them and that's not just because most people are laymen in terms of music performance, but also because it's hard to hear them when the vocals take center stage. If Mozart really wanted to put instrumental parts on the spot, he would have made the choir stay silent more often throughout the mass and let the instruments shine.

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