South American Shitshow

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United States of America n0el
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South American Shitshow

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Post by n0el »

I can’t believe all the shit going on in South America right now. It makes impeachment and Brexit look like child’s play.

Military Coup in Bolivia
Release of political prisoner Lula
Chilean Protests

Seems like the world is a powder keg right now.
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Re: South American Shitshow

Post by occamslightsaber »

Sounds like Tuesday in South America to me.

All jokes aside, the stakes are much bigger for the impeachment and Brexit.
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Re: South American Shitshow

Post by n0el »

Are they though? What really changes?
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Re: South American Shitshow

Post by Riotcoke »

Tesla stock shooting up, it's good for America!
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Re: South American Shitshow

Post by Horsemen »

South America has always been a shit show. Every country there swings between radical socialism and military dictatorship, with no middle ground.
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Re: South American Shitshow

Post by Dolan »

Mhm, maybe they will get their own version of the Arab spring. Tho the Arab spring hasn't been very successful until now. There's definitely no wave of democratisation in the Arab world right now.
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Re: South American Shitshow

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

Horsemen wrote:South America has always been a shit show. Every country there swings between radical socialism and military dictatorship, with no middle ground.
I wonder why!
US Military Intervention Latin America
Many known South-American dictators were installed by the USA. Pinochet, for example, became dictator of Chile in 1974 with an American-backed coup d'état and remained one until 1990. The couped government was a democratically elected socialist regime that had not done anything wrong at all. Pinochet's dictatorship is responsible for thousands upon thousands of deaths and numerous cases of human rights abuses.
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Re: South American Shitshow

Post by Dolan »

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Re: South American Shitshow

Post by fightinfrenchman »

@Mr_Bramboy Is this post also ironic?
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Re: South American Shitshow

Post by n0el »

mad cuz bad
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Re: South American Shitshow

Post by Dolan »

@Mr_Bramboy Tbh, everything is the USA's fault. Communism collapsed because they struck a deal with the USSR. Former Communist countries that embarked on a diet of capitalism and democracy are still poorer than Western countries. This is also the USA's fault.
If the USA dabbled at some point in a situation, it's their fault forever.

Gotta exploit that guilt to the max.

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United States of America Amsel_
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Re: South American Shitshow

Post by Amsel_ »

Horsemen wrote:radical socialism and military dictatorship
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Re: South American Shitshow

Post by Horsemen »

Amsel_ wrote:
Horsemen wrote:radical socialism and military dictatorship
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you mean national socialism?
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Re: South American Shitshow

Post by fightinfrenchman »

I audibly sighed reading that post
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Re: South American Shitshow

Post by Amsel_ »

Horsemen wrote:
Amsel_ wrote:
Horsemen wrote:radical socialism and military dictatorship
Image
you mean national socialism?
Whoa. I went to sleep, woke up, and checked ESOC with no bell notifications. Then I posted something on another thread, and you replied. Cool timing. Also National Socialism doesn't have socialism or military dictatorship. Hitler fought heavily against the far-left and had trouble trying to control the Wehrmacht. You could point out that Franco and Peron were from the military, but they're Fascists, not National Socialists; and even calling them Fascists is debatable. Franco is more of a conservative type, and Peron a populist.
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Re: South American Shitshow

Post by Dolan »

Hitler was actually a big fan of Marx.
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Re: South American Shitshow

Post by n0el »

Dolan wrote:Hitler was actually a big fan of Marx.
Hitler wrote: In the years 1913 and 1914 I expressed my opinion for the first time in various circles, some of which are now members of the National Socialist Movement, that the problem of how the future of the German nation can be secured is the problem of how Marxism can be exterminated.
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Re: South American Shitshow

Post by fightinfrenchman »

n0el wrote:
Dolan wrote:Hitler was actually a big fan of Marx.
Hitler wrote: In the years 1913 and 1914 I expressed my opinion for the first time in various circles, some of which are now members of the National Socialist Movement, that the problem of how the future of the German nation can be secured is the problem of how Marxism can be exterminated.
Dolan is extremely anti-Semitic. Keep this in mind when you respond to his posts
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Re: South American Shitshow

Post by Horsemen »

fightinfrenchman wrote:
n0el wrote:
Dolan wrote:Hitler was actually a big fan of Marx.
Hitler wrote: In the years 1913 and 1914 I expressed my opinion for the first time in various circles, some of which are now members of the National Socialist Movement, that the problem of how the future of the German nation can be secured is the problem of how Marxism can be exterminated.
Dolan is extremely anti-Semitic. Keep this in mind when you respond to his posts
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Re: South American Shitshow

Post by Dolan »

n0el wrote:
Dolan wrote:Hitler was actually a big fan of Marx.
Hitler wrote: In the years 1913 and 1914 I expressed my opinion for the first time in various circles, some of which are now members of the National Socialist Movement, that the problem of how the future of the German nation can be secured is the problem of how Marxism can be exterminated.
You know why he declared that? Because Marxism was Nazism's direct competitor on the political scene. There is a book called "The Lost Literature of Socialism” by George Watson, which documents Hitler's private letters to his advisors and confidants, as well as his private conversations. In this book, Watson does a great job at dispelling some myths about socialism as well as nazism. In his private letters and convos with his close people, Hitler explained that he was highly indebted to reading Marx and he also stated that Nazism was really nothing but Marxism plus his Aryan race theory:
His differences with the communists, he explained, were less ideological than tactical. German communists he had known before he took power, he told Rauschning, thought politics meant talking and writing. They were mere pamphleteers, whereas "I have put into practice what these peddlers and pen pushers have timidly begun", adding revealingly that "the whole of National Socialism" was based on Marx.

That is a devastating remark and it is blunter than anything in his speeches or in Mein Kampf.; though even in the autobiography he observes that his own doctrine was fundamentally distinguished from the Marxist by reason that it recognised the significance of race - implying, perhaps, that it might otherwise easily look like a derivative. Without race, he went on, National Socialism "would really do nothing more than compete with Marxism on its own ground".
This was the reason why Hitler was keen on destroying Marxism and its political arm, Bolshevism. They were direct political competitors, they were competing for people's attention and support. Hitler couldn't allow their socialism, Marx's version of socialism to win the race. It's not because they disagreed on fundamental issues, it's because they disagreed on tactical issues (how should socialism be brought about) and because Marxism lacked the racial component.
In terms of economic policy, while socialism advocated destroying the old class-based system and replacing it with a new, classless one, nazism advocated a more gradual approach that kept the old classes, but aimed at gradually replacing them without revolution:
That is how he reportedly talked to his fellow Nazi Otto Wagener in the early 1930s. The socialism of the future would lie in "the community of the volk", not in internationalism, he claimed, and his task was to "convert the German volk to socialism without simply killing off the old individualists", meaning the entrepreneurial and managerial classes left from the age of liberalism. They should be used, not destroyed. The state could control, after all, without owning, guided by a single party, the economy could be planned and directed without dispossessing the propertied classes.
Even more clearly stated:
Now that the age of individualism had ended, he told Wagener, the task was to "find and travel the road from individualism to socialism without revolution". Marx and Lenin had seen the right goal, but chosen the wrong route - a long and needlessly painful route - and, in destroying the bourgeois and the kulak, Lenin had turned Russia into a grey mass of undifferentiated humanity, a vast anonymous horde of the dispossessed; they had "averaged downwards"; whereas the National Socialist state would raise living standards higher than capitalism had ever known. It is plain that Hitler and his associates meant their claim to socialism to be taken seriously; they took it seriously themselves.
Why do you think Nazism was called National Socialism? There's a very good reason for that and that's because they were really and truly socialists, but of a nationalist kind.

@Amsel_ Nazism is just a type of fascism. The only major difference between Hitler's Nazism and Mussolini's fascism is that Italian fascism didn't have a racial theory, everything else was pretty much similar. Italian fascism was equally tolerant of private enterprise, for example, as long as it served the state's militaristic and socialist objectives.
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Re: South American Shitshow

Post by n0el »

George Watson was a neoliberal, and out to prove that socialism led to genocide. Hardly a neutral historical perspective.
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Re: South American Shitshow

Post by Dolan »

That doesn't make the quotes he used from Hitler's letters to his advisor Otto Wagener less veridical. In those quoted passages Hitler clearly declares his ideological debt to Marx and the fact that Nazism is nothing more but socialism plus the Aryan race theory. Economically, instead of nationalising everything like the Russian Bolsheviks, they chose to keep the old capitalists and subsume their interests to those of the socialist state. It's the same goal of eventually reaching socialism, but taking a different route of implementation. And adding this nationalist component that was missing in Marxism (which was internationalist).

The endstate was the same, tho, reaching a classless society, replacing individualism with a communal society of equals, removing capitalists and international speculators from the equation, etc etc. Nazism added this extra flavour of traditional values and focus on one's nation.
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Re: South American Shitshow

Post by Dolan »

@n0el Here are some quotes from Otto Wagener's memoirs on what Hitler told him and what he wrote to him in letters:

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Hitler:_M ... _Confidant

His book is called "Hitler: Memoirs of a Confidant" (title in German was Hitler aus nächster Nähe: Aufzeichnungen eines Vertrauten 1929-1932).

A few quotes from this book:
But that's precisely the problem we have set out to solve: to convert the German Volk to socialism without simply killing off the old individualists, without destruction of property and values,…

But we National Socialists wish precisely to attract all socialists, even the Communists; we wish to win them over from their international camp to the national one.

Once the ruling power is in our grasp, we must seize the evil in Germany by the root and tear it out, to make way for true socialism, for the new faith, for the new religion.

After all, that’s exactly why we call ourselves National Socialists! We want to start by implementing socialism in our nation among our Volk! It is not until the individual nations are socialist that they can address themselves to international socialism.
You and spanky will probably like what Hitler thought about this:
Public need before private greed.
Wagener wrote his memoirs in 1946 while he was a prisoner of the British forces. I don't think he had any particular interest in distorting what Hitler told him for some kind of ideological purpose.
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Re: South American Shitshow

Post by kami_ryu »

-- deleted post --

Reason: on request (off-topic bulk delete)
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Re: South American Shitshow

Post by n0el »

kami_ryu wrote:Can someone tl,dr the Lula thing?
US and Brazilian far right worked together on a "corruption" probe targeting the worker's party (Lula was the former leader). It resulted in removal of President Dilma and the imprisonment of Lula. Since then, there has been a lot of reporting that the judge and prosecution were working together to ensure that Lula couldn't run for President even though he was leading the polls over Bolsonaro. He was imprisoned without exhausting all his appeals and cut off from speaking to the media.

https://theintercept.com/2019/06/09/bra ... arty-lula/
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