Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread

[Cometk]

So what if it's racist



Let people think whatever they want to think. If you want to prove them wrong, use arguments, not bullshit labels like "racist", "sexist", as if that's an argument in itself. This general offense-taking mentality has created an atmosphere policed by finger-pointing tattletales and whiners.

I dunno man, in the last thread of a similar vein, you basically just denied that racism exists nowadays and argued that nobody should be offended by the word “nigger” because of it. Why would you expect a high level of discourse when this is pretty much your position?

[fightinfrenchman]

He's also anti-Semitic

[Mr_Bramboy]

He's also anti-Semitic

Another buzzword. What does that have to do with the ongoing Zwarte Pieten Discussion Thread?

[fightinfrenchman]

He's also anti-Semitic

Another buzzword. What does that have to do with the ongoing Zwarte Pieten Discussion Thread?

It was an addendum to what Comet said

[Dolan]

I dunno man, in the last thread of a similar vein, you basically just denied that racism exists nowadays and argued that nobody should be offended by the word “nigger” because of it. Why would you expect a high level of discourse when this is pretty much your position?

I don't think I did that. Looking back at that thread (viewtopic.php?f=315&t=18123) I was arguing that using certain words shouldn't be a legal or bannable offence. People should be free to have whatever likes and dislikes for certain categories they want, as long as legally they don't do something that puts those categories at a disadvantage (such as refusing to hire them only based on their own personal feeling of dislike).

It's just as weird as Hitler's book being banned in some countries, as if that is going to stop anyone from thinking about similar ideas or even reading it. Thought and expression shouldn't be the object of any state's legislation. The only statements that should be legally punishable should be those that make clear accusations against someone, accusations that are likely to undermine their reputation.

So I don't see much of an issue if some nation has some customs that mock other ethnic groups or mimic their appearance. If Turks had a similar festival, except it was about Wallachians (how other people called Romanians during the Medieval times), I wouldn't feel offended, even though historically they oppressed, enslaved and killed lots of Wallachians for centuries.

Also you have to take into account that the Netherlands is probably very different from the USA. It's probably not as segregated as the USA is, so this culture of offence-taking that is so prevalent in the USA probably doesn't hold much sway there.

[Mr_Bramboy]

I believe that we should respect people’s culture. The Dutch should be allowed to continue this tradition because it is a core part of their national identity. To stop this tradition would be to oppress their culture.

Thank you, horseman.

[Goodspeed]

It's not Racist though, it's about a chimney sweep, it's not directly correlated to skin colour at all. You're just assuming it's racist because that's what society tells you blackface is, even though it's symbolizing something completely different.

Pretty sure the chimney sweep story is just something we tell ourselves to make it sound ok. I don't think you'll find any basis for it in history. So yeah, it's pretty obviously offensive, but at least no offense is intended at this point. That makes it somewhat tolerable.
They should change it though. It's going to happen, so just get it over with. I don't want to have to explain the change to any children I might have if they wait too long.

[occamslightsaber]

It's just as weird as Hitler's book being banned in some countries, as if that is going to stop anyone from thinking about similar ideas or even reading it. Thought and expression shouldn't be the object of any state's legislation. The only statements that should be legally punishable should be those that make clear accusations against someone, accusations that are likely to undermine their reputation.

Hitler made pretty clear accusations against Jews in his book though and he undermined their reputation to the point that many people willingly participated in or defended the genocide. So by your logic, the ban on Hitler’s book should make sense.

[Horsemen]

I believe that we should respect people’s culture. The Dutch should be allowed to continue this tradition because it is a core part of their national identity. To stop this tradition would be to oppress their culture.

Thank you, horseman.

Horsemen*

[occamslightsaber]

The Dutch should be allowed to continue this tradition because it is a core part of their national identity.

[Dolan]

It's just as weird as Hitler's book being banned in some countries, as if that is going to stop anyone from thinking about similar ideas or even reading it. Thought and expression shouldn't be the object of any state's legislation. The only statements that should be legally punishable should be those that make clear accusations against someone, accusations that are likely to undermine their reputation.

Hitler made pretty clear accusations against Jews in his book though and he undermined their reputation to the point that many people willingly participated in or defended the genocide. So by your logic, the ban on Hitler’s book should make sense.

I didn't say that statements which are actually factual accusations (against someone or a particular group) should lead to a ban or limits imposed on freedom of expression. The person making such accusation should be brought to trial where he'd have to produce evidence for those statements.
Obviously it works differently for political pamphlets and books. Germany's intellectuals should have been able to refute Hitler's theses if they found them to be factually inaccurate.

Then again, "the people" have been misled by numerous leaders during history and that led to some pretty destructive consequences. It's not like people being "the people" somehow makes them reasonable or the ultimate repository of common sense.

But anyway, history is a lot more mixed than that. It's not like people in the 1930s' Germany supported Hitler for one single reason or because of whatever he wrote in a book. Very few probably even read his book. (And not everything that Hitler did for Germany was wrong or destructive, actually during the first years I think he basically kickstarted their economy again. So you can imagine that some Germans thought they made the right decision, especially if, much later, they would have no idea of what was happening in concentration camps.)

[occamslightsaber]

So... you think Hitler’s accusations against Jews, such as their conspiracy to control the world and backstabbing Germany during World War 1, were in fact true?

[Mr_Bramboy]

So... you think Hitler’s accusations against Jews, such as their conspiracy to control the world and backstabbing Germany during World War 1, were in fact true?

Can you elaborate on the use of the word 'conspiracy'?

[occamslightsaber]

Does it need elaboration? By conspiracy I meant super sneaky secret plan.

[Dolan]

So... you think Hitler’s accusations against Jews, such as their conspiracy to control the world and backstabbing Germany during World War 1, were in fact true?

That's a complicated subject. I generally don't believe in conspiracies, because I'm not so optimistic about humans' abilities to coordinate their actions across multiple countries, institutions, economies. People are just not as reliable as conspiracy theorists expect them to be, while playing their part in a conspiracy.

So while I don't believe in Jewish conspiracies (or whatever form of that might exist is probably not as significant as its proponents believe it to be), you can get an idea of whether these memes about Jewish involvement in different areas are accurate or not, by just looking at the data. Get statistical data on how many executives, for example, in the US media are Jewish and how many are not. How many in Hollywood, investment banking, attorney offices and so on are Jewish and how many are of a different ethnicity. I don't know, look at the data and make up your own opinion. I don't have any preconceived opinion about this. If the data say Armenians control Hollywood or the US Senate or US banking, I side with the data, not personal impressions.

Same for Hitler's specific historical period. If that's what he saw, then his statements should be analysed with statistical data from that particular period. Were Jewish people really controlling banking, media and the arts, as Hitler perceived and wrote in his book? I've no idea, I haven't really researched this subject. I know that this was his perception, though, based on his personal experience of failing to get recognition in the world of arts, as a painter. He put this failure down to Jewish art critics controlling the media and the world of arts and promoting a type of artistic expression (non-figurative, like Cubism or Abstract art) that he thought was degenerate and had a negative effect on society.

[fightinfrenchman]

...

[Goodspeed]

So... you think Hitler’s accusations against Jews, such as their conspiracy to control the world and backstabbing Germany during World War 1, were in fact true?

That's a complicated subject. I generally don't believe in conspiracies, because I'm not so optimistic about humans' abilities to coordinate their actions across multiple countries, institutions, economies. People are just not as reliable as conspiracy theorists expect them to be, while playing their part in a conspiracy.

So while I don't believe in Jewish conspiracies (or whatever form of that might exist is probably not as significant as its proponents believe it to be), you can get an idea of whether these memes about Jewish involvement in different areas are accurate or not, by just looking at the data. Get statistical data on how many executives, for example, in the US media are Jewish and how many are not. How many in Hollywood, investment banking, attorney offices and so on are Jewish and how many are of a different ethnicity. I don't know, look at the data and make up your own opinion. I don't have any preconceived opinion about this. If the data say Armenians control Hollywood or the US Senate or US banking, I side with the data, not personal impressions.

Same for Hitler's specific historical period. If that's what he saw, then his statements should be analysed with statistical data from that particular period. Were Jewish people really controlling banking, media and the arts, as Hitler perceived and wrote in his book? I've no idea, I haven't really researched this subject. I know that this was his perception, though, based on his personal experience of failing to get recognition in the world of arts, as a painter. He put this failure down to Jewish art critics controlling the media and the world of arts and promoting a type of artistic expression (non-figurative, like Cubism or Abstract art) that he thought was degenerate and had a negative effect on society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Proto ... rs_of_Zion

[fightinfrenchman]

[Dolan]

@fightinfrenchman Do you think there's a boomer conspiracy in the USA?

[Dolan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Proto ... rs_of_Zion

I doubt the topic of "Jewish conspiracies" only revolves around the Protocols text. The arguments people use today are not mostly from that text.

[Goodspeed]

I meant that as a reply to this part:

I know that this was his perception, though, based on his personal experience of failing to get recognition in the world of arts, as a painter. He put this failure down to Jewish art critics controlling the media and the world of arts and promoting a type of artistic expression (non-figurative, like Cubism or Abstract art) that he thought was degenerate and had a negative effect on society.

Meaning it was based on more than just that. It was also based on Russian propaganda that predated him.

[kami_ryu]

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[kami_ryu]

-- deleted post --

[edeholland]

I don't give two shits about this tradition, it's not even that creative, it's just a worse version of the Santa Claus lore.

[RefluxSemantic]

I don't give two shits about this tradition, it's not even that creative, it's just a worse version of the Santa Claus lore.

I'm so fucking triggered by this statement