Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread

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No Flag RefluxSemantic
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Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread

Post by RefluxSemantic »

I honestly just don't see how it's actually racist? Maybe it's better to change it if people take offensive (although the idea of just changing something because a group dislikes it seems like a slippery slope), but I just really dislike this entire issue.

By making such a big deal about this mostly symbolic issue, you play down the actual problems of racism. By screaming racism at a tradition where people dress up and give presents to children, you just don't respect the actual problems of racism. People should be upset that in today's society, even in the Netherlands, there is still concious and subconcious racism toward black people (and arabs, and asians). They should be upset that a black person with the same qualifications is less likely to get a job at a job interview, that someone with a Morrocan name is far less likely to be invited to a job interview, that a black person is far more likely to be pulled over by cops because he's driving an expensive car. People should be angry that a white guy is more likely to get into a football stadium without being checked, that white people are less likely to get checked at airports. They should be upset that people will call the police when a black guy is walking around in his own house, because they will think it's a burglar. They should be upset that the children in mostly "foreign" (that is, non white) neighboorhoods are often very far behind in language skills compared to white children - whose parents are far more likely to spend money on extra tutoring for those children too.

The zwarte piet discussion is just putting all the emphasis on something that is not actually the problem. A generally harmless tradition, where people dress up and give presents to children, is not the thing to focus on. It's hardly even racist, it's at best a vague reference to a past of slavery. A past by the way that none of the black people that live today have actually experienced. It's hardly even a good reference to slavery, because in every single depiction of Sinterklaas Zwarte Piet is just a well treated employee. By focussing so much on this discussion, on this symbolism, you not only play down the actual racism in society but you actually make it worse. This gives xenophobes ammunition. It almost justifies their xenophobia, as people from a different cultural background come in and attack their society (to be clear, I don't think this justifies xenophobia, but it does really fuel it). This symbolic war against zwarte piet has just made racism worse in the Netherlands. Instead, people should put their time and energy in trying to solve the actual underlying problems of racism; how about anonymous job interviews, extra primary school tutoring for weak neighboorhoods, extra language classes for immigrant parents that don't master the language, programs to prevent black/arab youth to become criminal. That would be something I actually support, instead of a symbolic war that doesn't actually achieve anything.
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Netherlands MCJim
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Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread

Post by MCJim »

edeholland wrote:I don't give two shits about this tradition, it's not even that creative, it's just a worse version of the Santa Claus lore.
But then how did you feel about it when you were young?
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Netherlands edeholland
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Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread

Post by edeholland »

MCJim wrote:
edeholland wrote:I don't give two shits about this tradition, it's not even that creative, it's just a worse version of the Santa Claus lore.
But then how did you feel about it when you were young?
Cared even less. It was all about candy, presents and having a good time with my family. Why does it matter how I felt about it?
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Netherlands MCJim
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Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread

Post by MCJim »

edeholland wrote:
MCJim wrote:
edeholland wrote:I don't give two shits about this tradition, it's not even that creative, it's just a worse version of the Santa Claus lore.
But then how did you feel about it when you were young?
Cared even less. It was all about candy, presents and having a good time with my family. Why does it matter how I felt about it?
Well, because normally people strongly want to keep a tradition like this, because it was part of their childhood and associate it with good, happy feelings. That makes it valuable.
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Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread

Post by fightinfrenchman »

MCJim wrote:
edeholland wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Cared even less. It was all about candy, presents and having a good time with my family. Why does it matter how I felt about it?
Well, because normally people strongly want to keep a tradition like this, because it was part of their childhood and associate it with good, happy feelings. That makes it valuable.
Thinking about my childhood doesn't make me happy at all
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Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread

Post by Jam »

fightinfrenchman wrote:
MCJim wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Well, because normally people strongly want to keep a tradition like this, because it was part of their childhood and associate it with good, happy feelings. That makes it valuable.
Thinking about my childhood doesn't make me happy at all
<3
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United States of America Amsel_
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Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread

Post by Amsel_ »

Wtf bros. I went ahead and did blackface to try and be more inclusive and understanding of foreign cultures, but a couple of African American teenagers beat me up. I whipped out my phone to show them your posts; but I didn't have the right thread open. He just said "Wass toon world gotta do wif dis, raycis?" (thanks a lot @fightinfrenchman ) After awhile, they finally stopped beating me up, but while they were walking away they kept talking about treaty players being "boomers."

On the bright side, we've got four new members of the community. They say they're big fans of Aztec and Spain, and one of them's already made it to master sergeant.
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Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread

Post by lejend »

RefluxSemantic wrote:I honestly just don't see how it's actually racist? Maybe it's better to change it if people take offensive (although the idea of just changing something because a group dislikes it seems like a slippery slope), but I just realize dislike this entire issue.

By making such a big deal about this mostly symbolic issue, you play down the actual problems of racism. By screaming racism at a tradition where people dress up and give presents to children, you just don't respect the actual problems of racism. People should be upset that in today's society, even in the Netherlands, there is still concious and subconcious racism toward black people (and arabs, and asians). They should be upset that a black person with the same qualifications is less likely to get a job at a job interview, that someone with a Morrocan name is far less likely to be invited to a job interview, that a black person is far more likely to be pulled over by cops because he's driving an expensive car. People should be angry that a white guy is more likely to get into a football stadium without being checked, that white people are less likely to get checked at airports. They should be upset that people will call the police when a black guy is walking around in his own house, because they will think it's a burglar. They should be upset that the children in mostly "foreign" (that is, non white) neighboorhoods are often very far behind in language skills compared to white children - whose parents are far more likely to spend money on extra tutoring for those children too.

The zwarte piet discussion is just putting all the emphasis on something that is not actually the problem. A generally harmless tradition, where people dress up and give presents to children, is not the thing to focus on. It's hardly even racist, it's at best a vague reference to a past of slavery. A past by the way that none of the black people that live today have actually experienced. It's hardly even a good reference to slavery, because in every single depiction of Sinterklaas Zwarte Piet is just a well treated employee. By focussing so much on this discussion, on this symbolism, you not only play down the actual racism in society but you actually make it worse. This gives xenophobes ammunition. It almost justifies their xenophobia, as people from a different cultural background come in and attack their society (to be clear, I don't think this justifies xenophobia, but it does really fuel it). This symbolic war against zwarte piet has just made racism worse in the Netherlands. Instead, people should put their time and energy in trying to solve the actual underlying problems of racism; how about anonymous job interviews, extra primary school tutoring for weak neighboorhoods, extra language classes for immigrant parents that don't master the language, programs to prevent black/arab youth to become criminal. That would be something I actually support, instead of a symbolic war that doesn't actually achieve anything.
Yeah black people should focus on fighting real racism in society instead of things like... *squint*... national festivals that revolve around mocking and humiliating black people
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No Flag fightinfrenchman
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Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Amsel_ wrote:Wtf bros. I went ahead and did blackface to try and be more inclusive and understanding of foreign cultures, but a couple of African American teenagers beat me up. I whipped out my phone to show them your posts; but I didn't have the right thread open. He just said "Wass toon world gotta do wif dis, raycis?" (thanks a lot @fightinfrenchman ) After awhile, they finally stopped beating me up, but while they were walking away they kept talking about treaty players being "boomers."

On the bright side, we've got four new members of the community. They say they're big fans of Aztec and Spain, and one of them's already made it to master sergeant.
Black people in general hate when people "liebe," which is something I can definitely relate to.
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No Flag kami_ryu
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Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread

Post by kami_ryu »

-- deleted post --

Reason: on request (off-topic bulk delete)
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United States of America Amsel_
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Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread

Post by Amsel_ »

So, hypothetically speaking, would it be racist if someone were to accidentally permanently dye the skin on their legs black in a freak leg hair dying accident? Just curious. haha :unsure:
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Nauru Dolan
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Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread

Post by Dolan »

Oh btw, you know why generally rich and upper middle class people have always been supportive of all these liberation movements (for women, ethnic minorities, etc)? Because what they see in those categories is more cheap labour to exploit in their firms. So the sooner these categories are emancipated, the more available cheaper labour there is for their companies.

That also explains why so many of them are also pro-immigration, because it's a gold mine for them. This gives them an opportunity to make natives compete with much cheaper labour and drive wages down. After all, the rich don't have to live in communities infested by crime and low social cohesion, they live in their own gated communities where they don't have to deal with the costs of low social integration.

So that's why you see so many upperclass people always put this progressive attitude on display, because what they're aiming for is long-term profits from exploiting an inflating workforce.
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Great Britain Horsemen
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Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread

Post by Horsemen »

Dolan wrote:Oh btw, you know why generally rich and upper middle class people have always been supportive of all these liberation movements (for women, ethnic minorities, etc)? Because what they see in those categories is more cheap labour to exploit in their firms. So the sooner these categories are emancipated, the more available cheaper labour there is for their companies.

That also explains why so many of them are also pro-immigration, because it's a gold mine for them. This gives them an opportunity to make natives compete with much cheaper labour and drive wages down. After all, the rich don't have to live in communities infested by crime and low social cohesion, they live in their own gated communities where they don't have to deal with the costs of low social integration.

So that's why you see so many upperclass people always put this progressive attitude on display, because what they're aiming for is long-term profits from exploiting an inflating workforce.
Dolan dark speaks the truth yet again

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