COVID-19 / Coronavirus Outbreak

[RefluxSemantic]

In terms of deaths these have affected Europe more than other regions because Europe has historically been more advanced and urbanized than other regions. The plague wasn't really a pandemic in te sense of a new virus emerging, but more a matter of being an urbanized society.

No, not really. For most of the last 1500 years, Europe could not be counted among the most advanced and even less among the most urbanized regions. Sure, there was Constantinople which was big for quite a long time or Cordoba, but otherwise urbanization severely lacked behind China, parts of India or even Mexico.

I think for this topic, one should not forget that one huge european advantages has been a relative stability for a good millenium. Yes, there were frequent wars, but there were few fundamental societal changes from one day to the other. Pretty much all modern countries are somewhat recognizable in 1000AD. This is not the case for any other world region, I think. Look at China! One might be tempted to think that "China" has been around for thousands of years with its lots of dynasties. But these dynasties did not represent the same countries. There were drastic societal revolutions between the dynastic changes which often ended up killing vast quantities of people. Just look at the last 100 years. What is left of the, say, 1918 China? Not even the CCP existed at that point.

The many highly urbanized and advanced societies in other parts of the world simply did not survive as good as in Europe, e.g. Siege of Baghdad or Merv or Vijayanagara and the like.

I can't really find a justification for the claim about Mexico being urbanized that much. Could you share some more on that?

[RefluxSemantic]

@duckzilla the first plague occured in Eastern Roman Empire and likely spread from their to other parts of the world. Of course the 2nd and 3rd started in Mongolia, or China but originally they came from Europe. In fact the first one occured in Greece 1000 years before.

Of course India bas many illnesses, no one said otherwise but that doesn't mean they were pandemics. We are talking about pandemics.

No, this is wrong. Just have a a look at the wikipedia article, I linked. Your confusion might arise from the fact that the word "plague" has historically been used to describe different kinds of grave illnesses. But the actual plage is refering to the bubonic plague which is from China. Also to add further: the first recorded plague. I can only recommend to have a look at the book that I linked. It's good.

The very reason for them not becoming pandemics might have been to do with the caste system. However, there is, of course, still pandemics that arose in India, such as cholera.

For the record, the justinian plague and black death were both caused by the same disease. It's pretty much unknown where the bubonic plague actually comes from as far as I can tell.

[princeofcarthage]

@duckzilla the first plague occured in Eastern Roman Empire and likely spread from their to other parts of the world. Of course the 2nd and 3rd started in Mongolia, or China but originally they came from Europe. In fact the first one occured in Greece 1000 years before.

Of course India bas many illnesses, no one said otherwise but that doesn't mean they were pandemics. We are talking about pandemics.

No, this is wrong. Just have a a look at the wikipedia article, I linked. Your confusion might arise from the fact that the word "plague" has historically been used to describe different kinds of grave illnesses. But the actual plage is refering to the bubonic plague which is from China. Also to add further: the first recorded plague. I can only recommend to have a look at the book that I linked. It's good.

The very reason for them not becoming pandemics might have been to do with the caste system. However, there is, of course, still pandemics that arose in India, such as cholera.

Yes but that is not the point I am making. I agree that diseases come from all part of world. I agree that pandemics have started all over the world. I am saying that majority seem to have happened/originated from Europe and that the deadliest ones have happened/originated from Europe. For ex. The wikipedia link clearly states that the countless natives and civilisations which perished in Americas as a result of diseases brought by Europeans are not taken into account/list.

[RefluxSemantic]

@duckzilla the first plague occured in Eastern Roman Empire and likely spread from their to other parts of the world. Of course the 2nd and 3rd started in Mongolia, or China but originally they came from Europe. In fact the first one occured in Greece 1000 years before.

Of course India bas many illnesses, no one said otherwise but that doesn't mean they were pandemics. We are talking about pandemics.

No, this is wrong. Just have a a look at the wikipedia article, I linked. Your confusion might arise from the fact that the word "plague" has historically been used to describe different kinds of grave illnesses. But the actual plage is refering to the bubonic plague which is from China. Also to add further: the first recorded plague. I can only recommend to have a look at the book that I linked. It's good.

The very reason for them not becoming pandemics might have been to do with the caste system. However, there is, of course, still pandemics that arose in India, such as cholera.

Yes but that is not the point I am making. I agree that diseases come from all part of world. I agree that pandemics have started all over the world. I am saying that majority seem to have happened/originated from Europe and that the deadliest ones have happened/originated from Europe. For ex. The wikipedia link clearly states that the countless natives and civilisations which perished in Americas as a result of diseases brought by Europeans are not taken into account/list.

But that's not true? The different plagues didn't necessarily originate from Europe, it's unclear where the bubonic plague actually originates from. Covid, HIV and the Spanish flu originate from Asia, Africa and North America.

[harcha]

If we just stop recording covid numbers in europe, then europe will be the first to beat the virus.

[princeofcarthage]

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@duckzilla the first plague occured in Eastern Roman Empire and likely spread from their to other parts of the world. Of course the 2nd and 3rd started in Mongolia, or China but originally they came from Europe. In fact the first one occured in Greece 1000 years before.

Of course India bas many illnesses, no one said otherwise but that doesn't mean they were pandemics. We are talking about pandemics.

No, this is wrong. Just have a a look at the wikipedia article, I linked. Your confusion might arise from the fact that the word "plague" has historically been used to describe different kinds of grave illnesses. But the actual plage is refering to the bubonic plague which is from China. Also to add further: the first recorded plague. I can only recommend to have a look at the book that I linked. It's good.

The very reason for them not becoming pandemics might have been to do with the caste system. However, there is, of course, still pandemics that arose in India, such as cholera.

Yes but that is not the point I am making. I agree that diseases come from all part of world. I agree that pandemics have started all over the world. I am saying that majority seem to have happened/originated from Europe and that the deadliest ones have happened/originated from Europe. For ex. The wikipedia link clearly states that the countless natives and civilisations which perished in Americas as a result of diseases brought by Europeans are not taken into account/list.

But that's not true? The different plagues didn't necessarily originate from Europe, it's unclear where the bubonic plague actually originates from. Covid, HIV and the Spanish flu originate from Asia, Africa and North America.

But the bubonic plague aren't the only pandemics. And if say some disease migrated from Europe but became pandemic in americas as has been the case, shouldn't that be counted as originating from Europe?

[RefluxSemantic]

Show hidden quotes

@duckzilla the first plague occured in Eastern Roman Empire and likely spread from their to other parts of the world. Of course the 2nd and 3rd started in Mongolia, or China but originally they came from Europe. In fact the first one occured in Greece 1000 years before.

Of course India bas many illnesses, no one said otherwise but that doesn't mean they were pandemics. We are talking about pandemics.

No, this is wrong. Just have a a look at the wikipedia article, I linked. Your confusion might arise from the fact that the word "plague" has historically been used to describe different kinds of grave illnesses. But the actual plage is refering to the bubonic plague which is from China. Also to add further: the first recorded plague. I can only recommend to have a look at the book that I linked. It's good.

The very reason for them not becoming pandemics might have been to do with the caste system. However, there is, of course, still pandemics that arose in India, such as cholera.

Yes but that is not the point I am making. I agree that diseases come from all part of world. I agree that pandemics have started all over the world. I am saying that majority seem to have happened/originated from Europe and that the deadliest ones have happened/originated from Europe. For ex. The wikipedia link clearly states that the countless natives and civilisations which perished in Americas as a result of diseases brought by Europeans are not taken into account/list.

But that's not true? The different plagues didn't necessarily originate from Europe, it's unclear where the bubonic plague actually originates from. Covid, HIV and the Spanish flu originate from Asia, Africa and North America.

But the bubonic plague aren't the only pandemics. And if say some disease migrated from Europe but became pandemic in americas as has been the case, shouldn't that be counted as originating from Europe?

No, because that'd be an epidemic rather than a pandemic.

[fightinfrenchman]

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@duckzilla the first plague occured in Eastern Roman Empire and likely spread from their to other parts of the world. Of course the 2nd and 3rd started in Mongolia, or China but originally they came from Europe. In fact the first one occured in Greece 1000 years before.

Of course India bas many illnesses, no one said otherwise but that doesn't mean they were pandemics. We are talking about pandemics.

No, this is wrong. Just have a a look at the wikipedia article, I linked. Your confusion might arise from the fact that the word "plague" has historically been used to describe different kinds of grave illnesses. But the actual plage is refering to the bubonic plague which is from China. Also to add further: the first recorded plague. I can only recommend to have a look at the book that I linked. It's good.

The very reason for them not becoming pandemics might have been to do with the caste system. However, there is, of course, still pandemics that arose in India, such as cholera.

Yes but that is not the point I am making. I agree that diseases come from all part of world. I agree that pandemics have started all over the world. I am saying that majority seem to have happened/originated from Europe and that the deadliest ones have happened/originated from Europe. For ex. The wikipedia link clearly states that the countless natives and civilisations which perished in Americas as a result of diseases brought by Europeans are not taken into account/list.

But that's not true? The different plagues didn't necessarily originate from Europe, it's unclear where the bubonic plague actually originates from. Covid, HIV and the Spanish flu originate from Asia, Africa and North America.

But the bubonic plague aren't the only pandemics. And if say some disease migrated from Europe but became pandemic in americas as has been the case, shouldn't that be counted as originating from Europe?

No, because that'd be an epidemic rather than a pandemic.

I hear it's actually a plandemic

[evilcheadar]

They’re callling it the virus

[princeofcarthage]

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@duckzilla the first plague occured in Eastern Roman Empire and likely spread from their to other parts of the world. Of course the 2nd and 3rd started in Mongolia, or China but originally they came from Europe. In fact the first one occured in Greece 1000 years before.

Of course India bas many illnesses, no one said otherwise but that doesn't mean they were pandemics. We are talking about pandemics.

No, this is wrong. Just have a a look at the wikipedia article, I linked. Your confusion might arise from the fact that the word "plague" has historically been used to describe different kinds of grave illnesses. But the actual plage is refering to the bubonic plague which is from China. Also to add further: the first recorded plague. I can only recommend to have a look at the book that I linked. It's good.

The very reason for them not becoming pandemics might have been to do with the caste system. However, there is, of course, still pandemics that arose in India, such as cholera.

Yes but that is not the point I am making. I agree that diseases come from all part of world. I agree that pandemics have started all over the world. I am saying that majority seem to have happened/originated from Europe and that the deadliest ones have happened/originated from Europe. For ex. The wikipedia link clearly states that the countless natives and civilisations which perished in Americas as a result of diseases brought by Europeans are not taken into account/list.

But that's not true? The different plagues didn't necessarily originate from Europe, it's unclear where the bubonic plague actually originates from. Covid, HIV and the Spanish flu originate from Asia, Africa and North America.

But the bubonic plague aren't the only pandemics. And if say some disease migrated from Europe but became pandemic in americas as has been the case, shouldn't that be counted as originating from Europe?

No, because that'd be an epidemic rather than a pandemic.

The wikipedia list you literally saw has the title (top 10 epidemics/pandemics). Conceptually they are same just depending on affected region it is either named epidemic or pandemic. Don't dwell too much on semantics.

[RefluxSemantic]

Its entirely semantics if you want to make the silly point that you're making.

[princeofcarthage]

Nah, the point is Europe is birth place of many civilization killing diseases which can be backed up by facts.

[Dolan]

facts.

Which facts

[RefluxSemantic]

Nah, the point is Europe is birth place of many civilization killing diseases which can be backed up by facts.

I can genuinely not find a source that actually mentions Europe being the birth place of any big disease.

I did find out that India is to blame for Leprosy and smallpox though.

[princeofcarthage]

Nah, the point is Europe is birth place of many civilization killing diseases which can be backed up by facts.

I can genuinely not find a source that actually mentions Europe being the birth place of any big disease.

I did find out that India is to blame for Leprosy and smallpox though.

"The origin of smallpox is unknown;[14] however, the earliest evidence of the disease dates to the 3rd century BCE in Egyptian mummies.[14] " It has been speculated that Egyptian traders brought smallpox to India during the 1st millennium BCE, where it remained as an endemic human disease for at least 2000 years.

This confirms the spread of the disease along the migration, colonisation, and slave trade routes taken from East Africa to India, West Africa to the New World, and from Africa into Europe and vice versa.[101]

[RefluxSemantic]

So how about a disease that actually originates from Europe?

[princeofcarthage]

So how about a disease that actually originates from Europe?

What about the countless ones that destroyed entire civilizations in Americas? Europeans brought them to Americas.

[Dolan]

So how about a disease that actually originates from Europe?

What about the countless ones that destroyed entire civilizations in Americas? Europeans brought them to Americas.

*The English did. And I think they don't identify as European, but something apart.

[princeofcarthage]

So how about a disease that actually originates from Europe?

What about the countless ones that destroyed entire civilizations in Americas? Europeans brought them to Americas.

*The English did. And I think they don't identify as European, but something apart.

Spanish, Portuguese? French?

[Dolan]

Then point to specific nations rather than the whole Europe being to blame. I don't blame the whole of Asia for the corona, only China.
It's crazy how China got away with creating such a crisis without getting internationally ostracised.

[RefluxSemantic]

So how about a disease that actually originates from Europe?

What about the countless ones that destroyed entire civilizations in Americas? Europeans brought them to Americas.

Which one of those diseases actually originated from Europe?

[princeofcarthage]

So how about a disease that actually originates from Europe?

What about the countless ones that destroyed entire civilizations in Americas? Europeans brought them to Americas.

Which one of those diseases actually originated from Europe?

Pretty much all of them

[princeofcarthage]

Then point to specific nations rather than the whole Europe being to blame. I don't blame the whole of Asia for the corona, only China.
It's crazy how China got away with creating such a crisis without getting internationally ostracized.

Because there is no definitive proof. Research has indicated Sars 2 existed in Europe and US probably since March 2019. Remember the first case identified was in Wuhan doesn't mean it was the first case. Also its not like China intentionally caused the pandemic. There is no point in blaming a certain nation for natural disasters.

[Mr_Bramboy]

If we just stop recording covid numbers in europe, then europe will be the first to beat the virus.

This but unironically. If we stop paying those actors, the hospitals would be empty in no time.

[Dolan]

Then point to specific nations rather than the whole Europe being to blame. I don't blame the whole of Asia for the corona, only China.
It's crazy how China got away with creating such a crisis without getting internationally ostracized.

Because there is no definitive proof. Research has indicated Sars 2 existed in Europe and US probably since March 2019. Remember the first case identified was in Wuhan doesn't mean it was the first case. Also its not like China intentionally caused the pandemic. There is no point in blaming a certain nation for natural disasters.

Which research indicated Sars 2 existed in Europe before 2020