US riots

[vardar]

But he didn’t die from that. You legally can’t charge someone for murder by choking/asphyxiation when in reality he wasn’t joked to death. They can charge for other crimes but, if I’m not mistaken, legally he did not murder him by choking. I’m not defending the fact that George died and the officer went rogue in his procedures, but laws are still to be followed in this case. The officer could still be charged because the way his knee was on his neck could have caused a shock in George’s body that led to his eventual death. If the prosecutors can argue this case well enough but idk how much they will be able to prove intent to kill. Some sort of involuntary or voluntary manslaughter route could be taken.

If someone is familiar/practiced with how the laws work on this sort of case they should chime in.

[Dolan]

@007Salt
Well, if we go by these autopsy results, then at most, there might have been an indirect influence (caused by the police) on what triggered his death. That is, he had a shock because he got caught and his pre-existing heart condition and drug usage aggravated this shock.
What could the police do, first ask a suspect if they have all their medical tests up to date and any known health issue, before telling them they're being arrested?

[gamevideo113]

@Dolan Do you think the 3 (4) officers would not have been able to restrain a handcuffed man on the ground if one of them didn't have a knee on his neck (which can also be the cause of a circulatory shock, since as you say it can induce respiratory symptoms)? Do you think it was necessary to keep the knee on the guy's neck even after he passed out? It's clear that there was an excessive use of force and that alone provides ground for protesting, regardless of the exact cause of death.

[vardar]

@Dolan the department released a statement that the officers procedure was not taught in training. Pretty sure that is not endorsed my majority of departments nationwide.

[gamevideo113]

@007Salt
Well, if we go by these autopsy results, then at most, there might have been an indirect influence (caused by the police) on what triggered his death. That is, he had a shock because he got caught and his pre-existing heart condition and drug usage aggravated this shock.
What could the police do, first ask a suspect if they have all their medical tests up to date and any known health issue, before telling them they're being arrested?

So basically it's nobody's fault, he died because he wasn't healthy enough to be strangled just a little bit?
At the very least lifting the infamous knee when solicited to do so (since the situation was totally under control) would have made the situation look a whole lot different.

[princeofcarthage]

Show hidden quotes

This also proves my 2 longstanding points.
1) Democracy shouldn't exist, at least in its current state.
2) People are inherently stupid.

What a dumb statement, really

You are in category 2

Nice to see that, even if we disagree, we still have something in common

Nice try, this 1470's reverse burn tries won't work on me

Nice try, this "i can start insulting you but i am immune to your insults" won't work on me Attaboy

:sad:

I wish ESOC had a emote

Well for one I wasn't insulting you.

[n0el]

@007Salt
Well, if we go by these autopsy results, then at most, there might have been an indirect influence (caused by the police) on what triggered his death. That is, he had a shock because he got caught and his pre-existing heart condition and drug usage aggravated this shock.
What could the police do, first ask a suspect if they have all their medical tests up to date and any known health issue, before telling them they're being arrested?

If he isn't found guilty of murder, the entire country will burn.

[RefluxSemantic]

@007Salt
Well, if we go by these autopsy results, then at most, there might have been an indirect influence (caused by the police) on what triggered his death. That is, he had a shock because he got caught and his pre-existing heart condition and drug usage aggravated this shock.
What could the police do, first ask a suspect if they have all their medical tests up to date and any known health issue, before telling them they're being arrested?

If he isn't found guilty of murder, the entire country will burn.

So it seems the law should only apply to police officers when it works against them now? That's quite the ironic twist.

[Mr_Bramboy]

Not sure if anyone paid attention, but considering that the official results of Floyd's autopsy revealed that he did not die of asphyxiation, doesn't this turn the whole debate on its head? If it's proven in court that his death was not due to police maltreatment, will these riots not be seen as simply triggered by a perception of events that would eventually prove to be false?

It's not really relevant because he was saying he couldn't breathe and the cop continued kneeling on his neck until he died. The intent is the issue

Because the police officer received adequate training and knew the signals of asphyxiation.

[martinspjuth]

You should be able to sing about whatever you want in whichever way you want. That doesn’t mean it should be played on the radio.
If the song promotes or glorifies criminality it should be banned from radio and have an age restriction on music streaming services, just like videogames have an age restriction and just like Youtube has nsfw warnings.
@n0el @vardar @Goodspeed

Edit: Apparently it is already in place. Sorry for not checking that before.

[n0el]

@RefluxSemantic sorry, you have no concept of how the US justice system works.

[n0el]

You should be able to sing about whatever you want in whichever way you want. That doesn’t mean it should be played on the radio.
If the song promotes or glorifies criminality it should be banned from radio and have an age restriction on music streaming services, just like videogames have an age restriction and just like Youtube has nsfw warnings.
@n0el @vardar @Goodspeed

We have that

[Dolan]

@Dolan Do you think the 3 (4) officers would not have been able to restrain a handcuffed man on the ground if one of them didn't have a knee on his neck (which can also be the cause of a circulatory shock, since as you say it can induce respiratory symptoms)? Do you think it was necessary to keep the knee on the guy's neck even after he passed out? It's clear that there was an excessive use of force and that alone provides ground for protesting, regardless of the exact cause of death.

It was reported when this whole thing started that this procedure is allowed as long as it doesn't obstruct the airway:

Speaking to US media on Tuesday, Chief Arradondo said the force's policies "regarding placing someone under control" will be reviewed as part of the probe.
According to the Associated Press news agency, Minneapolis police officers are allowed under the department's use-of-force policy to kneel on a suspect's neck as long as they do not obstruct the airway.

Tbh, this "neck restraint" procedure seems to have a pretty bad record. There are tens of cases of people losing consciousness because of it. And there have been experts over the years raising issues with how dangerous this could be, especially in cases of people with pre-existing health conditions.

So basically it's nobody's fault, he died because he wasn't healthy enough to be strangled just a little bit?
At the very least lifting the infamous knee when solicited to do so (since the situation was totally under control) would have made the situation look a whole lot different.

I don't know, I don't establish guilt, that's for the judiciary to establish, I was just curious why people keep talking as if the police officer actually caused his death, even though there's no public evidence yet that this is the case. Maybe everyone should just calm down and wait for the investigation to be completed. I agree, though, that this "neck restraint" procedure is not 100% safe, in fact it has a pretty high rate of causing suspects to lose consciousness (tens of such cases).

[Dolan]

@007Salt
Well, if we go by these autopsy results, then at most, there might have been an indirect influence (caused by the police) on what triggered his death. That is, he had a shock because he got caught and his pre-existing heart condition and drug usage aggravated this shock.
What could the police do, first ask a suspect if they have all their medical tests up to date and any known health issue, before telling them they're being arrested?

If he isn't found guilty of murder, the entire country will burn.

What if Floyd actually died of a stroke caused by strong emotions, on a backdrop of drugs and heart disease? He could have got this shock from anything, like getting caught up in a shooting.
I don't get your statement, why should the country burn if the police are found to not have caused his death through their actions.

[n0el]

He died because of the officer using excessive force. It doesn't matter if he had pre-existing conditions.

[Goodspeed]

You should be able to sing about whatever you want in whichever way you want. That doesn’t mean it should be played on the radio.
If the song promotes or glorifies criminality it should be banned from radio and have an age restriction on music streaming services, just like videogames have an age restriction and just like Youtube has nsfw warnings.
@n0el @vardar @Goodspeed

That's a thing. But songs often get "R" ratings for the wrong reasons. Like we can't have people saying the word fuck but glorifying obsessive behavior or sexualizing children is a-ok.

[martinspjuth]

You should be able to sing about whatever you want in whichever way you want. That doesn’t mean it should be played on the radio.
If the song promotes or glorifies criminality it should be banned from radio and have an age restriction on music streaming services, just like videogames have an age restriction and just like Youtube has nsfw warnings.
@n0el @vardar @Goodspeed

That's a thing. But songs often get "R" ratings for the wrong reasons. Like we can't have people saying the word fuck but glorifying obsessive behavior or sexualizing children is a-ok.

Then that's what need to change.

[n0el]

Need some advanced AI then

[RefluxSemantic]

He died because of the officer using excessive force. It doesn't matter if he had pre-existing conditions.

This is not what the autopsy implies at all though

[n0el]

@RefluxSemantic It is what the independent autopsy implies.

[Dolan]

I'm actually curious what the court will decide on this.

[duckzilla]

So... If I burn someone's house while he is inside and he dies because of a heart attack out of stress (pre-existing heart condition!) instead of burning alive...
Then I did not actually murder him, right? Because he had a heart condition and did not die directly due to the fire.

[vardar]

I’m not saying their music should be legally banned. I’m saying it should not be glorified and listened to. It’s a part of the problem and it glorifies terrible acts. Why would someone want to listen to music like that? It perpetuates and numbs the seriousness of the situation. People listen to it on their way to school or coming home from work. They sing along to it. Does anyone not question the twisted conscious and actions of Melly and artists of the like?

There could be a whole semester class on music and it’s effects on society. Youre trying to deflect the problem by saying there’s other genres that are bad. I’m not talking about those instances because that is not the subject we are talking about. If we want to talk about how toxic country music plays a role on white country folk then we can have that and I will condone it. I don’t give a shit about Mellys race I care about the fact that he raps how violent and dangerous he is. He is a part of the problem no differently than any violent offender is. Problem is, his voice reaches millions.

[Dolan]

So... If I burn someone's house while he is inside and he dies because of a heart attack out of stress (pre-existing heart condition!) instead of burning alive...
Then I did not actually murder him, right? Because he had a heart condition and did not die directly due to the fire.

A fire will eventually kill someone. It's an inevitable and inescapable outcome, unless they manage to get out of it.
A neck restraint procedure does not necessarily and inescapably kill someone, there's no inevitable outcome in such a case. Although this procedure does have a bad track record of tens of people losing consciousness because of it, so in some cases it might be dangerous to use.

[vardar]

So... If I burn someone's house while he is inside and he dies because of a heart attack out of stress (pre-existing heart condition!) instead of burning alive...
Then I did not actually murder him, right? Because he had a heart condition and did not die directly due to the fire.

Justice system differentiates between instances of crime and it’s unhealthy to make comparisons like that. It’s more complicated than that.

Officer can still get charged with George’s death but it is not a one size fits all situation and nor should it be. You guys are trying to dumb down the situation into very simple terms.