On the subject of race

[comradecommissar]

Hi everyone,

About a year ago, coming across content from ESOC motivated me to get back to playing AOE 3 after 9 years. This was particularly true during the lockdown, when, stuck at home, I turned back to this game as a source of joy. I love the content ESOC produces. Some of the high level matches are such a treat to watch for someone who has been a fan of AoE 3 for 14 years. Increasingly, I became active on the twitch chat and got to know some of the other players in the community, and I credit the environment created by ESOC for that.

As some of you may have seen, a few days ago, I was subjected to racism in two different threads by members of this community. I am not denying that in the prelude to that incident, I was being antagonistic, as were others. Our conversations revolved around race, misrepresentations of people of colour and politics in general. These are always controversial topics, provoking strong reactions from anyone, and especially strong reactions from people who have the benefit of anonymity over the internet. Admittedly, some of the things I said were not fair.

However, I find it particularly problematic that when confronted with disagreement, even in an antagonistic form, users on this forum resorted to racism on the basis of the flag I choose to identify with on this forum. The two things are not and have never been equivalent. Racism in any case is unjustified. There is no excuse. It is incredibly distressing for me to have this equivalence drawn. For centuries, racism has been a tool to push people of color 'back in line' when the majority feels threatened. Given that history, such an equivalence is particularly damaging.

I also want to address those who think what was said to me wasn't racism. I ask you, what is racism to you? How do you understand it? Is telling a person "to go back to where they came from" when they point out the structural inequalities in their adopted country not racism, the obvious implication being that because of your background and race, you are disqualified from the chance to pass judgment? Is continuing to call someone a Paki—despite repeated affirmations by other users of the deeply problematic history and obvious racial connotations of the term—not a racist thing to do? Even if I am being understanding and accept that a user didn't know these connotations, to continue to insist on using it repeatedly and in a derogatory way when you have been repeatedly asked to stop and sent evidence of the racism attached to the term is something I thought this community would find unforgivable, but I am disappointed. I've been called Paki before in my life. I've been called a Paki bastard while a drunk thug shoved me to the ground. I've been called Paki by Professors who knew exactly what the term implied. It hurts. It has always hurt.

ESOC brought me back to AOE3. I fear that ESOC is the reason I am leaving it. Every time I've tried to play over the last few days, my sheer disappointment and hurt at the way this community responded to what happened prevents me from getting a game in. I am not upset that I was racially attacked. Internet trolls exist, and the user who was racist to me clearly has a lot of issues he needs to deal with. I am upset at the fact that some of the best players in the game defended him. I am upset that @edeholland not only chose to keep the posts up and leave the user who was racist unbanned, but also didn't feel compelled to PM me explaining why he did what he did or offering any kind of public explanation.

I think to top it all off, people told me I was trying to be the victim. That shit sucks.

I'm out. Maybe I'll watch some streams here and there, but I do want ESOC to reflect on how they make people of color feel unwelcome and unsafe in this community. And before you tell me otherwise, I hope that you understand that the cardinal principle of racism is that when someone tells you they feel racially abused, you listen to them. The mods at ESOC, along with a chunk of the community, failed at that. I sincerely doubt this will happen, but I do wish everyone some deep soul searching about their perceptions of race and racism. Clearly, more needs to be learned and understood.

Finally, I want to thank a few people by name for sticking up for me publicly. @iNcog @Cometk @forgrin @fightinfrenchman #modtheear @dansil92 @gibson and anyone else I might have forgotten. Also, thank you for the private messages I received expressing solidarity.

[iNcog]

-- deleted post --

[Sargsyan]

whoever called you that is a cuck.

[CuCkO0]

It is a sincere shame that you feel you need to the leave the community here due to some bad experiences based on other people’s ignorance and inability to be decent human beings.

I don’t know you and don’t think we’ve ever spoken. But I do hope you decide to stick around. The AOE3 community is forever shrinking and it sounds like you’re one of the good ones.

But I wish you well regardless

[PancakePrincess]

I usually try to stick to quietly lurking around, but yeah, the stuff that happened in the thread was terrible imo.

Nobody should have to be called something after making clear that they find the term in question repulsive. Sorry you had to go through that!

[deleted_user]

nishe job, ESHOC

[fightinfrenchman]

ESOC might just need to open up a new subforum for people quitting the community because of racism

viewtopic.php?f=314&t=19296

[[Armag] diarouga]

Is telling a person "to go back to where they came from" when they point out the structural inequalities in their adopted country not racism ?

It's surely not a nice thing to say, and quite offensive, but unless it's directly linked to the "idea of race", that it is to say because the person saying this wants you to go back where you came from because of your skin colour, then it's not racism.

I am upset at the fact that some of the best players in the game defended him.

Kaiser didn't defend him, and I didn't defend him either, I defended his freedom of speech. We've already had this discussion, and while I don't know if "Paki" is racist or not (I didn't think it was), I don't think that the discussion about natives was racist.

but I do want ESOC to reflect on how they make people of color feel unwelcome and unsafe in this community

Only one person (Ivan) attacked you because of your skin colour. To be fair, it's unfortunate a new user found the most controversial political thread in ESOC. Political topics can easily go wrong because people often take the disagreements personally.

It's the first time I've seen a political thread outside of the "off topic" section actually in 5 years actually. That was unlucky for you.

[voigt1240]

Why do we keep dwelling on this subject when the person Who Called you paki already got banned

[TNT333]

"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin, or his background, or his religion. People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love, for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite." -Nelson Mandela

[edeholland]

Responding here to not further derail the Fresh Start thread.

Good to see that you didn't even try to address your refusal to use the banhammer at outwardly racial attacks and slurs. Heck, you didn't even delete anything.

The banhammer was used. Good ol Ivan was banned for 1 day for his posts in the "Do you care about the change of american civilization?" thread. I/we failed to communicate this to you and to edit his posts with the usual "User was banned for this post". The reason the posts aren't deleted is for the same reason: they are supposed to be edited and be an example of the behaviour we do not tolerate.

I admit we responded slowly and didn't communicate about the actions taken against Good ol Ivan. I hope that the fact that he did indeed receive a ban (even if it was just for one day) can still bring you some solace.

I also admit the Community Team is currently too small. We need more manpower to be able to react quicker to incidents like these and to handle them correctly. It is being worked on, today chris1089 was added to the Community Team and a few more PM's are sent out to potential recruits. I hope you can blame me for the way you feel and not blame ESOC as a whole. For many people, ESOC has made them feel welcome, given them entertaining AoE3 content, brought up new discussions and perspectives and even real-life friends. I hope you can give ESOC another chance while we work on making the forums a better place.

[Hazza54321]

well i missed something, what thread are we talking about

[deleted_user]

I also admit the Community Team is currently too small. We need more manpower to be able to react quicker to incidents like these and to handle them correctly.

so #ModTheEar ?

[comradecommissar]

Responding here to not further derail the Fresh Start thread.

Good to see that you didn't even try to address your refusal to use the banhammer at outwardly racial attacks and slurs. Heck, you didn't even delete anything.

The banhammer was used. Good ol Ivan was banned for 1 day for his posts in the "Do you care about the change of american civilization?" thread. I/we failed to communicate this to you and to edit his posts with the usual "User was banned for this post". The reason the posts aren't deleted is for the same reason: they are supposed to be edited and be an example of the behaviour we do not tolerate.

I admit we responded slowly and didn't communicate about the actions taken against Good ol Ivan. I hope that the fact that he did indeed receive a ban (even if it was just for one day) can still bring you some solace.

I also admit the Community Team is currently too small. We need more manpower to be able to react quicker to incidents like these and to handle them correctly. It is being worked on, today chris1089 was added to the Community Team and a few more PM's are sent out to potential recruits. I hope you can blame me for the way you feel and not blame ESOC as a whole. For many people, ESOC has made them feel welcome, given them entertaining AoE3 content, brought up new discussions and perspectives and even real-life friends. I hope you can give ESOC another chance while we work on making the forums a better place.

Thank you. That means a lot. I really appreciate it.

If I can make a suggestion, I think the community team needs to be expanded to include people from a diversity of backgrounds. I think what is offensive to one group might not seem to be offensive to another (which seems to be the case with what happened with me) and while I think that thats a bigger global problem, at this forum it could be addressed by adding a range of voices to the conversation on what is acceptable and what isn't.

Again, thank you for your response. I appreciate it. It was all I was asking for. The sense of justice denied can nag you.

[edeholland]

Another status update:

Ivan is banned for another week for the posts he made after the 1-day-ban expired. In this week, I will try to reach out to him and see if we can have him back on the forums while preventing future incidents.

I also edited a few of his posts and added the "User was banned for this post" statement to show that action has been taken.

Comrade, I appreciate your words, they do mean a lot to me. I also appreciate your suggestions, if you want to talk more I invite you to hit me up on Discord.

[Imperial Noob]

So again someone creates drama because they expected something from someone, and when they didn't get it, they expected something from someone else, and when they didn't get it either, they decided to leave.

[fightinfrenchman]

So again someone creates drama because they expected something from someone, and when they didn't get it, they expected something from someone else, and when they didn't get it either, they decided to leave.

No, you're thinking of something else

[TNT333]

By potential recruits have u considered the ear as top priority?? @edeholland
#modtheear

[SoldieR]

Politics brings out the worst in people.

This is not unique to this particular internet forum.

While bad things are said from time to time and actions should be taken, try not to put too much expectations on volunteer mods.

[Kanoo]

Another status update:

Ivan is banned for another week for the posts he made after the 1-day-ban expired. In this week, I will try to reach out to him and see if we can have him back on the forums while preventing future incidents.

I also edited a few of his posts and added the "User was banned for this post" statement to show that action has been taken.

Comrade, I appreciate you words, they do mean a lot to me. I also appreciate your suggestions, if you want to talk more I invite you to hit me up on Discord.

A one week ban is a joke honestly.
Besides, with DE round the corner, I think clowns like him should have no place in this community.

[Peachrocks]

Sigh... unbelievable. No, that’s a poor word. This is totally believable and I’ve come to expect no better from people.

Seriously would like to talk some more on discord or something.

[comradecommissar]

Absolutely to those suggesting discord. @Peachrocks @edeholland

What are you guys discords?

[Peachrocks]

I’ll send a pm for it

[edeholland]

Edeholland#7129

[voigt1240]

If we put our emotions aside for a minute. Lets look at how other platforms often deals out bans. A one time offense is often a 1 day ban. 2nd time offense is often a week, then either several weeks or months. I'm okay with this.