On the subject of race

[Papist]

Someone said a mean word to someone on the internet? Is this what got this party started?

Calling someone a racial slur is not the same thing as using a curse word, and the user in question did it multiple times despite being told it was offensive. And then when he was called out, people like diarouga (who has a record of calling people racial slurs himself), raced to defend him. So the situation is a bit worse than you make it sound.

Well ya man it sucks but just stop and think about what you all are doing.... You're motivating them to keep doing it cuz the reaction makes it funny to them.

It's a lot different being white cuz there's no such racial slur that exists that would cause me to give a damn but one thing I know about bullying is you hit back instead of complaining about it.

I'm complaining because ESOC isn't hitting back, i.e. banning people when they cross the line. Individual users hitting back doesn't matter because people like Ivan have already demonstrated that they don't care how people perceive them (iirc Ivan boasted about being an "honest bigot" at one point). I recognize that complaining doesn't accomplish anything, but the alternative is staying silent and offering tacit approval when people post overtly racist stuff. It's insane to me that you can get a three month ban for dropping out of a tournament, but calling someone a racial slur 20 times in a row only gets you banned for 24 hours.

[007Salt]

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Someone said a mean word to someone on the internet? Is this what got this party started?

Calling someone a racial slur is not the same thing as using a curse word, and the user in question did it multiple times despite being told it was offensive. And then when he was called out, people like diarouga (who has a record of calling people racial slurs himself), raced to defend him. So the situation is a bit worse than you make it sound.

Well ya man it sucks but just stop and think about what you all are doing.... You're motivating them to keep doing it cuz the reaction makes it funny to them.

It's a lot different being white cuz there's no such racial slur that exists that would cause me to give a damn but one thing I know about bullying is you hit back instead of complaining about it.

I'm complaining because ESOC isn't hitting back, i.e. banning people when they cross the line. Individual users hitting back doesn't matter because people like Ivan have already demonstrated that they don't care how people perceive them (iirc Ivan boasted about being an "honest bigot" at one point). I recognize that complaining doesn't accomplish anything, but the alternative is staying silent and offering tacit approval when people post overtly racist stuff. It's insane to me that you can get a three month ban for dropping out of a tournament, but calling someone a racial slur 20 times in a row only gets you banned for 24 hours.

The people saying racist stuff in these forums should give it a try irl.... if they don't then they're the ones being a bitch.

Just try changing the narrative to beat them at their own game.

[harcha]

Show hidden quotes

Someone said a mean word to someone on the internet? Is this what got this party started?

Calling someone a racial slur is not the same thing as using a curse word, and the user in question did it multiple times despite being told it was offensive. And then when he was called out, people like diarouga (who has a record of calling people racial slurs himself), raced to defend him. So the situation is a bit worse than you make it sound.

Well ya man it sucks but just stop and think about what you all are doing.... You're motivating them to keep doing it cuz the reaction makes it funny to them.

It's a lot different being white cuz there's no such racial slur that exists that would cause me to give a damn but one thing I know about bullying is you hit back instead of complaining about it.

I'm complaining because ESOC isn't hitting back, i.e. banning people when they cross the line. Individual users hitting back doesn't matter because people like Ivan have already demonstrated that they don't care how people perceive them (iirc Ivan boasted about being an "honest bigot" at one point). I recognize that complaining doesn't accomplish anything, but the alternative is staying silent and offering tacit approval when people post overtly racist stuff. It's insane to me that you can get a three month ban for dropping out of a tournament, but calling someone a racial slur 20 times in a row only gets you banned for 24 hours.

I agree that the ban approach isn't very effective but what kind of hitting back do you propose? Ddosing him? I mean realistically there is no hitting back option.

You could make the bans more effective if you could dish them out at a moments notice, but this isn't a subreddit with 3 million users - we don't have full-time basement dwelling reddit mods at disposal. There isn't any manpower that could monitor the forum this closely. Forum is run with minimal resource investment by people doing it in their spare time. All we can do is ask moderators to be more responsive if and when possible.

I don't think comparing forum moderation to tournament moderation is fair. Forum moderation has a goal of being similar in policy to the official forums as per Mr. Boys post, while tournament moderation has the goal of making sure that the tournaments are fair and players don't mess with administrative decisions. Tournament ban doesn't mean that the person is banned on the forum, it is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

I think the only fair criticism towards mods is that they acted too slow, but honestly I wouldn't even want to log on after work if I was bombarded with various issues like edeholland is.

[forgrin]

The Age of Empires forum policy allows moderators to skip warning points for severe offences. Is there any doubt that if Ivan had said the same things on the official forum, he would have been permabanned? There are still plenty of places on the internet you can be a racist troll, there is no reason for ESOC to be one of them.

[ShinkuroYukinari]

Me walking into this thread, ready to obliterate all anti-communist nonsense

[edeholland]

It's very distressing to see how willing both staff and community members have been to ignore and minimize what is easily the most despicable behavior I've seen in the five years I've been on the forum. How is it that people who troll the forums or quit a tournament get banned for months (if not permanently), but people whose sole "contribution" to this community is directing racial slurs at other community members get a slap on the wrist, and even then only when they do it incessantly? Seems like some misguided priorities tbh.

I'm not sure what you mean. You are saying the week ban isn't long enough in your opinion?

[comradecommissar]

It's very distressing to see how willing both staff and community members have been to ignore and minimize what is easily the most despicable behavior I've seen in the five years I've been on the forum. How is it that people who troll the forums or quit a tournament get banned for months (if not permanently), but people whose sole "contribution" to this community is directing racial slurs at other community members get a slap on the wrist, and even then only when they do it incessantly? Seems like some misguided priorities tbh.

I'm not sure what you mean. You are saying the week ban isn't long enough in your opinion?

Yes, that is what he is saying.

[edeholland]

Fair enough. I would like to give Ivan a chance in a week to get back on the forums and contribute. It wouldn't be the first time we have to ban someone and after their return they don't cross the line again. If you don't want to give him that chance, that's a fair point, we can agree to disagree.

[forgrin]

Fair enough. I would like to give Ivan a chance in a week to get back on the forums and contribute. It wouldn't be the first time we have to ban someone and after their return they don't cross the line again. If you don't want to give him that chance, that's a fair point, we can agree to disagree.

Considering how intentionally antagonistic he was, I don't really like either of the two possible outcomes if he comes back.

1- He says something racist again, hopefully getting permabanned (as it would be well deserved).

2- He doesn't say anything racist enough to get banned, and his presence makes the people he was racist towards in the past very uncomfortable on ESOC.

There is a third option where he apologizes and turns into a better person, but please tell me, when have you ever seen a racist stop being racist? Especially when they go to the lengths Ivan did to be inflammatory.

IMO if he is willing to apologize for his words, he can come back. Otherwise we have no need for people like him in this community.

[chris1089]

@forgrin There are murderers who have been rehabilitated back into society, do you really think it's beyond a racist person to do so?

[thomasgreen6]

Comrade, your hypocrisy is astounding. You come to America and complain about racism when you could easily live in a country where everyone is of the same race as you. (And I would point out, getting a high paying university job is proof that America is not that racist.) You promote communism and choose to live in one of the most capitalist societies in the world, probably because it has the most opportunities for someone like you. And now you come to ESOC, where you've turned a discussion about concerns that changes to a major mechanic in the game might be misguided into one about racism, and ultimately yourself. If you are actually leaving, which I doubt because of all the attention you are getting, I will not miss you.

@edeholland let me know when I can put "AryanSchutzstaffel" as my username.

Not sure if this is bait, but I'll bite,
1) How is his life story and living in America (by James Brown) related to complaints of other's behavior in an online forum?
2) How will him moving to a different country solve the concerns raised?
3) Not really relevant to discussion, but also interested to hear - since when is "not that racist" good enough for this forum? Who are you to decide?
4) Where in the related threads did he promote communism? Did you seriously just get this triggered by reading out his nickname?

I will admit, the last line is semi-bait. If the racism is so bad in America, if he moves to a country with people of his own race he will logically not experience racism. His "life story" shows that he is a hypocrite and doesn't truly hold the beliefs he espouses. He is trying to be a victim. Would you say the username "Aryan Schutzstaffel" is promoting Nazism? I would, and based on the responses a lot of other people would as well. That was the point I was trying to make with that line.

Or your country (certain people within it) could just stop being so racist

[JaguarProwlerKnoob]

@forgrin There are murderers who have been rehabilitated back into society, do you really think it's beyond a racist person to do so?

Agreed. It’s easier to teach the bigot the error in his ways than to fix the patronizing liberals suffocating supposed “victims”.

[gibson]

@forgrin There are murderers who have been rehabilitated back into society, do you really think it's beyond a racist person to do so?

Agreed. It’s easier to teach the bigot the error in his ways than to fix the patronizing liberals suffocating supposed “victims”.

[Cometk]

Don’t think JaguarProwlKnoob knows what the word Liberal means

[voigt1240]

I don't either, seems like it has changed its meaning in recent years.

[Cometk]

His biggest error is mistaking me for one, when I think that Liberals like @fightinfrenchman should be burned at the stake

[Riotcoke]

@Cometk communist cuck

[iNcog]

-- deleted post --

[Papist]

I agree that the ban approach isn't very effective but what kind of hitting back do you propose? Ddosing him? I mean realistically there is no hitting back option.

You could make the bans more effective if you could dish them out at a moments notice, but this isn't a subreddit with 3 million users - we don't have full-time basement dwelling reddit mods at disposal. There isn't any manpower that could monitor the forum this closely. Forum is run with minimal resource investment by people doing it in their spare time. All we can do is ask moderators to be more responsive if and when possible.

I don't think comparing forum moderation to tournament moderation is fair. Forum moderation has a goal of being similar in policy to the official forums as per Mr. Boys post, while tournament moderation has the goal of making sure that the tournaments are fair and players don't mess with administrative decisions. Tournament ban doesn't mean that the person is banned on the forum, it is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

I think the only fair criticism towards mods is that they acted too slow, but honestly I wouldn't even want to log on after work if I was bombarded with various issues like edeholland is.

When I said "hitting back" I was referring to bans. And yes, a forum ban is not equivalent to a tournament ban, but I raised the point to demonstrate that racism and general toxicity are treated far more mildly than other offenses. There are plenty of examples on the forums that prove the same point -- Acolyte for example received several multi-month bans for shitposting, something I think we can all agree is bad but not as bad as calling someone an ethnic slur multiple times.

I'm not sure what you mean. You are saying the week ban isn't long enough in your opinion?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. A week ban may have made sense after he said it once, but not after he said it twenty times. I think he should have been banned for several months at least. And as @forgrin pointed out, that's still mild compared to how he would have been treated on the official forums.

[lemmings121]

I am a liberal in both the American sense and the European one. e.g. universally hated

Now you should meet the liberals in Brazil, here being a liberal means you are a christian priest from 1450, you will love those guys.

[JaguarProwlerKnoob]

I can only guess at your own definitions of "liberal". But it is most certainly not possible to be liberal in both the european and american sense. But, proving me correct, there has been no rebuttal to any point I've made.

Further to my point, the one using the bigoted term "Paki" changed and used "Pakistani" after he was educated on the appropriate "demonym".

[Imperial Noob]

I am a liberal in both the American sense and the European one. e.g. universally hated

Now you should meet the liberals in Brazil, here being a liberal means you are a christian priest from 1450, you will love those guys.

do they ride donkeys?

[lemmings121]

I am a liberal in both the American sense and the European one. e.g. universally hated

Now you should meet the liberals in Brazil, here being a liberal means you are a christian priest from 1450, you will love those guys.

do they ride donkeys?

yes

[knusch]

Show hidden quotes

I am a liberal in both the American sense and the European one. e.g. universally hated

Now you should meet the liberals in Brazil, here being a liberal means you are a christian priest from 1450, you will love those guys.

do they ride donkeys?

yes

wrong answer. u should be offended!

[Dolan]

This is why globalisation is such an unmanageable mess from a cultural point of view.

Now I have to remember that "Paki" is a racial slur in certain Anglophone countries, even though for me in Eastern Europe it sounds more like a shorthand version of Pakistani. It sounds the same like "tranny" is a shorthand for "transsexual", even though some say "tranny" is offensive too (jeez). I wonder how many such terms exist that I don't have even the slightest idea about. And then I'd have to learn about tens or hundreds of such terms, keep a catalogue of them to make sure I never mention them because someone might feel offended somewhere on the other edge of the internet.

Wouldn't be simpler to just cut those internet cables that cross the ocean floors. See? No more offense. Everyone stays in their cultural bubble, instead of purging the language of words to accommodate tens of thousands of multicultural sensibilities. Multiculturalism just doesn't work, never did, never will. It either dilutes the original culture until there's nothing left and everyone blends into a monoculture, or it leads to enclavisation.