On the subject of race

[Snuden]

There is a good clip of a dumb Foxnews hostess accusing Denmark of being socialists full of lazy people just leeching off the government.

Few days later a danish minister address all her points. Ngl, it’s cringy to watch.

[oxaloacetate]

Show hidden quotes

Why not? every civilisation and nation have done terrible things. If those can be proud why should germans not be? Concentration camps are not even a german invention for example.

Because Germany lost the war, basically. "To the victor go the spoils".

"Location: Argentina" lol

What are you implying?

I'll let you figure that one out

I know what you meant by that comment because of the history of my country, but I am not a nazi. In fact, I despise them.

That's good to hear. It's just weird to say that the reason Germans generally think concentration camps are bad is that they lost the war

What I meant by that comment was that only Germany got a bad reputation, because they lost the war. There were Japanese internment camps in the USA and GULAGs in the URSS and nobody cares.

People do care, but there is a significant difference between the japanese internment camps and the holocaust.

They're not comparable by any means.

[Snuden]

[voigt1240]

Sad that people can't tell the difference between the nordic model and socialism in venezuela.

[JaguarProwlerKnoob]

Sad that people can't tell the difference between the nordic model and socialism in venezuela.

Afaik Denmark has some blend of capitalism with some socialist benefits for its peoples but I don’t know much. I only comment about my shitty system in Quebec and my classical liberal principles.

[martinspjuth]

A few thoughts on this topic.

If you think the definitions in (1.) and (2.) are too narrow, or if you directly disagree with any of the points (or parts of them), please do explain why.

1. Racism is the idea of an ethnic group of people that are superior or inferior to other ethnic groups when it comes to genes/biology.

2. A racist is someone who believes in (1.) or for other reasons discriminate based on ethnicity race (Edit, I used ethnicity but it should be race).

3. Discrimination because of religion or culture is just that; discrimination on the base of culture or religion. It’s not racism. (That’s not to say it isn’t wrong).

4. Saying that your culture is superior, or some other is inferior is most certainly problematic, but not necessarily untrue. I’d say modern culture is superior to the Inca/Maya culture of human sacrifices as an example I hope most can agree on (if you don’t, please do explain why). You could go into the same comparison between cultures that exist today, but it would be harder to find common ground. I do not bring it up to start a discussion of which culture is superior (I don’t even know how exactly you would quantify “how good a culture is”) but as a point of view of why it is possible to think one part of society is better/superior without it being racism.

5. I don’t think being proud of your culture/country/history/football team means you think others are inferior. It’s those that you come from/support/enjoy/are part of, it’s not strange if you are proud of what you’ve achieved. Your way there might not always have been pretty, the current situation might still be problematic, but it is better now than it was. It might not be as good as some other, but you can still be proud of the improvement you’ve made.

[fungu]

OK leech. I get shit from the government too and I pay 70% of my income to taxes. Most of the shit I get from the government isn’t well done. Why would I want to get a shitty level of everything when I could pay for better quality out of my pocket and still spend the same amount? Why would I want leeches to take my money and just use it to marry the government and pump out more babies to keep an income. A system that teaches people to work hard for themselves is far better for all.

Edit: there is also a price on your health by the government in a socialist system. I have a life insurance policy that I pay for that guarantees me treatment wherever in the world I can find it if my government isn’t willing to pay for it. This happened to my friend’s grandpa. He was diagnosed with prostrate cancer at 78 and was refused treatment here. So he paid for his own treatment in Florida and is still going strong 10 years later. He would have died had he not sought out his own treatment.

Well the traditional way of justifying privatization of essential infrastructure (healthcare, education etc.) is to defund and fuck up the public system.

I don't know where you get this idea, that people in social democracies don't work and just leech off the govenrment all day every day.

I guess my last message was a bit provocative, so I can't blame you for getting provoked. I don't know what to say, you just live in very different world than me.

[fungu]

Afaik Denmark has some blend of capitalism with some socialist benefits for its peoples but I don’t know much. I only comment about my shitty system in Quebec and my classical liberal principles.

Yea, it's called social democracy and it's what I just described in my previous post after which you called me a leech. Make up your mind already.

[JaguarProwlerKnoob]

A few thoughts on this topic.

If you think the definitions in (1.) and (2.) are too narrow, or if you directly disagree with any of the points (or parts of them), please do explain why.

1. Racism is the idea of an ethnic group of people that are superior or inferior to other ethnic groups when it comes to genes/biology.

2. A racist is someone who believes in (1.) or for other reasons discriminate based on ethnicity.

3. Discrimination because of religion or culture is just that; discrimination on the base of culture or religion. It’s not racism. (That’s not to say it isn’t wrong).

4. Saying that your culture is superior, or some other is inferior is most certainly problematic, but not necessarily untrue. I’d say modern culture is superior to the Inca/Maya culture of human sacrifices as an example I hope most can agree on (if you don’t, please do explain why). You could go into the same comparison between cultures that exist today, but it would be harder to find common ground. I do not bring it up to start a discussion of which culture is superior (I don’t even know how exactly you would quantify “how good a culture is”) but as a point of view of why it is possible to think one part of society is better/superior without it being racism.

5. I don’t think being proud of your culture/country/history/football team means you think others are inferior. It’s those that you come from/support/enjoy/are part of, it’s not strange if you are proud of what you’ve achieved. Your way there might not always have been pretty, the current situation might still be problematic, but it is better now than it was. It might not be as good as some other, but you can still be proud of the improvement you’ve made.

1. Yes
2. Ethnicity and race aren’t the same thing but the first part is correct.
3. Discrimination is bad, mmmkay?
4. The culture with the least amount of discrimination seems like a good barometer. Using this we can determine that the western/judeo christian culture is superior to all. I’m of the opinion it’s not problematic to say this. Just cold hard fact and facts don’t care about your feelings.
5. Pride is the deadliest sin.

[JaguarProwlerKnoob]

Afaik Denmark has some blend of capitalism with some socialist benefits for its peoples but I don’t know much. I only comment about my shitty system in Quebec and my classical liberal principles.

Yea, it's called social democracy and it's what I just described in my previous post after which you called me a leech. Make up your mind already.

What from this post gave you the impression I haven’t made up my mind? Also, I am open minded but I don’t believe in big government which is linked to “social democracies”.

Also, you were bragging that even your living expenses are paid for. Maybe the cost of living where you are is completely broken but that just sounds bad to steal from others’ pockets to put a roof over another’s head. Why would you want the government involved in your housing anyway? Every time I have to deal with the government it is slow, painful, and the job isn’t always done the best.

[fungu]

What from this post gave you the impression I haven’t made up my mind? Also, I am open minded but I don’t believe in big government which is linked to “social democracies”.

Also, you were bragging that even your living expenses are paid for. Maybe the cost of living where you are is completely broken but that just sounds bad to steal from others’ pockets to put a roof over another’s head. Why would you want the government involved in your housing anyway? Every time I have to deal with the government it is slow, painful, and the job isn’t always done the best.

It seemed to me that you were implying that Danes aren't so leechy, because they mix in capitalism. I misunderstood you.

Bragging? I suppose you can interpret it that way. I was trying to make a point about the average living standards of a student in a socialist shithole.
And don't think I'm rich, these benefits are just enough to pay for essentials.

The cost of living is broken, but even if it wasn't how do you propose students would pay for their living while studying full time? By getting an enormous loan which would keep them economically screwed for years after their graduation? Why would anyone come up with such a sys... oh.

[Robb_Killer]

@[Armag] diarouga
It works just fine in Canada, obviously not everything is 100% smooth but at least we're not trying to push the problem under the rug (or back out of the house) like it seems Europe is intent on doing.

Interesting that you say I lack tolerance, where you previously state that NA is a more tolerant society (due to being multicultural we logically are more tolerant of differences). If anything your statement just says that Europeans don't tolerate other cultures.

I can understand your perspective just fine, I just think it is bigoted and close-minded, and totally inapplicable to the NA situation because of historical injustices. It's not like France or the rest of Europe isn't guilty of these issues, you're just pretending it never happened, which is easier because the ancestors of your slaves live in the Americas instead of next to you.

If you want to claim that in Europe, being a bigot is socially acceptable and therefore what you say isn't racist, then sure, whatever. Doesn't make your statements not racist to other people. Try a bit of empathy?

Saying multiculturalism works in Canada is totally false. Saying that people support this in Canada is false too. A large majority of the country is against Trudeau's multicuturalism from coast to coast. We got ourselves in a society where no one got anything in commmon and where people live in each other communities which is the main problem of multiculturalism lack of communication and people ignore each other and we act as if everything going well. Also, Canada is a special case, multiculturalism was used since late 70 to mid 80 (with Trudeau's dynasty) to disolve French-Canadian identity and change what used to be the fondation of Canada : 2 founding people (French/English) with egual right and egual chances to a new Canada where French-Canadian are considered like a minority like the others and where French culture got expulsed from all governement platforms. So yeah NA is tolerant but only to people they want to. Ask Acadians how they feel about Canada's tolerance and empathy .

[Robb_Killer]

"A good example was that Quebec tried to pass laws banning all religious symbols in public buildings, which is fine in theory because separation of church and state etc., but the law didn't cover any Christian/Catholic imagery so, for example the giant crosses in courtrooms were fine. In practice it just discriminated against anyone who wasn't Christian. This is, in my experience, what Quebecois and Europeans mean when they say "tolerance" and "assimilation;" one-sided discrimination backed up by laws that purport to be for equality."

This is, without a surprise, a lie, again. After the Bill 21 was passed both cross were removed in National's Assembly as well as in Montreal's City Hall. Christian symbols must be removed as well as every other. It's just that some minorities, I won't nammed those, don't accept to seperate state from religion. And refuse to accept a law that have been voted democraticaly with a masssive support from the polls. Maybe they also do not believe in democracy who knows.


Sources :
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal ... -1.5205352

[[Armag] diarouga]

@[Armag] diarouga
It works just fine in Canada, obviously not everything is 100% smooth but at least we're not trying to push the problem under the rug (or back out of the house) like it seems Europe is intent on doing.

Interesting that you say I lack tolerance, where you previously state that NA is a more tolerant society (due to being multicultural we logically are more tolerant of differences). If anything your statement just says that Europeans don't tolerate other cultures.

I can understand your perspective just fine, I just think it is bigoted and close-minded, and totally inapplicable to the NA situation because of historical injustices. It's not like France or the rest of Europe isn't guilty of these issues, you're just pretending it never happened, which is easier because the ancestors of your slaves live in the Americas instead of next to you.

If you want to claim that in Europe, being a bigot is socially acceptable and therefore what you say isn't racist, then sure, whatever. Doesn't make your statements not racist to other people. Try a bit of empathy?

Saying multiculturalism works in Canada is totally false. Saying that people support this in Canada is false too. A large majority of the country is against Trudeau's multicuturalism from coast to coast. We got ourselves in a society where no one got anything in commmon and where people live in each other communities which is the main problem of multiculturalism lack of communication and people ignore each other and we act as if everything going well. Also, Canada is a special case, multiculturalism was used since late 70 to mid 80 (with Trudeau's dynasty) to disolve French-Canadian identity and change what used to be the fondation of Canada : 2 founding people (French/English) with egual right and egual chances to a new Canada where French-Canadian are considered like a minority like the others and where French culture got expulsed from all governement platforms. So yeah NA is tolerant but only to people they want to. Ask Acadians how they feel about Canada's tolerance and empathy .

Ye, to be fair it's wrong to say multiculturalism works fine, it never has. My guess is that the people who claim the opposite can't see the real situation and the issues multiculturalism created, or they don't want to see it because they'd become too pessimist because that would break their beliefs about tolerance.

[007Salt]

@Diarouga It works fine if you're not an asshole.

[[Armag] diarouga]

@Diarouga It works fine if you're not an asshole.

Define what an asshole is.
And I guess you meant it works fine if noone is an "asshole" rather.

We all know that's pure utopia, and that's why it has never worked in the past, and doesn't work today.

[007Salt]

@Diarouga It works fine if you're not an asshole.

Define what an asshole is.
And I guess you meant it works fine if noone is an "asshole" rather.

We all know that's pure utopia, and that's why it has never worked in the past, and doesn't work today.

You going to be an asshole to someone who isn't white in your neighborhood?

Everyone deserves to be treated with respect...

[[Armag] diarouga]

@Diarouga It works fine if you're not an asshole.

Define what an asshole is.
And I guess you meant it works fine if noone is an "asshole" rather.

We all know that's pure utopia, and that's why it has never worked in the past, and doesn't work today.

You going to be an asshole to someone who isn't white in your neighborhood?

Everyone deserves to be treated with respect...

Sigh, I see you didn't read my posts...

Assimilation isn't racial, it's cultural. The goal is to unite people around a unique culture, the culture of the country, regardless of their origin and skin colour. As I said, a black guy who acts according to the valuse and culture of his country is better assimilited than a white guy who doesn't like his culture.
This means that everyone is treated with respect, "new people" (by that I mean immigrants who recently came to the country), just need to make a little effort to learn the new culture and values.

Why is that "unique culture" a must ? Because else, society gets split into different communities, with different cultures, ie communautarism, and it's always led to instability and racism.

Frankly, it's a very Western thing to refuse assimilation because "it's not nice" or idk what. Just look at the arabic or asian countries, the stable ones are the assimilationist countries, all the multicultural ones got at least one civil war.

[JaguarProwlerKnoob]

Assimilate or go home!

[fightinfrenchman]

I think sort of funnelling all the shitty posts into this thread is helping the overall quality of posts outside of it. Perhaps we just make a separate subforum for the racists?

[007Salt]

Show hidden quotes

@Diarouga It works fine if you're not an asshole.

Define what an asshole is.
And I guess you meant it works fine if noone is an "asshole" rather.

We all know that's pure utopia, and that's why it has never worked in the past, and doesn't work today.

You going to be an asshole to someone who isn't white in your neighborhood?

Everyone deserves to be treated with respect...

Sigh, I see you didn't read my posts...

Assimilation isn't racial, it's cultural. The goal is to unite people around a unique culture, the culture of the country, regardless of their origin and skin colour. As I said, a black guy who acts according to the valuse and culture of his country is better assimilited than a white guy who doesn't like his culture.
This means that everyone is treated with respect, "new people" (by that I mean immigrants who recently came to the country), just need to make a little effort to learn the new culture and values.

Why is that "unique culture" a must ? Because else, society gets split into different communities, with different cultures, ie communautarism, and it's always led to instability and racism.

Frankly, it's a very Western thing to refuse assimilation because "it's not nice" or idk what. Just look at the arabic or asian countries, the stable ones are the assimilationist countries, all the multicultural ones got at least one civil war.

I really have no use to read your posts... There's no use in treating someone differently because they have different values or a different culture.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Assimilate or go home!

That's caricatural but that's the idea ye. You're given a chance by joining a developped country (getting free education, social welfare), all you need to do is respect the culture. How is that hard to understand ?
You want to come to a new country, act against the local culture as if you were home and expect the country to welcome you ?

[[Armag] diarouga]

Show hidden quotes

@Diarouga It works fine if you're not an asshole.

Define what an asshole is.
And I guess you meant it works fine if noone is an "asshole" rather.

We all know that's pure utopia, and that's why it has never worked in the past, and doesn't work today.

You going to be an asshole to someone who isn't white in your neighborhood?

Everyone deserves to be treated with respect...

Sigh, I see you didn't read my posts...

Assimilation isn't racial, it's cultural. The goal is to unite people around a unique culture, the culture of the country, regardless of their origin and skin colour. As I said, a black guy who acts according to the valuse and culture of his country is better assimilited than a white guy who doesn't like his culture.
This means that everyone is treated with respect, "new people" (by that I mean immigrants who recently came to the country), just need to make a little effort to learn the new culture and values.

Why is that "unique culture" a must ? Because else, society gets split into different communities, with different cultures, ie communautarism, and it's always led to instability and racism.

Frankly, it's a very Western thing to refuse assimilation because "it's not nice" or idk what. Just look at the arabic or asian countries, the stable ones are the assimilationist countries, all the multicultural ones got at least one civil war.

I really have no use to read your posts... There's no use in treating someone differently because they have different values or a different culture.

I'm not treatying them differently. They can have different values or culture in their private life, I'm just asking them to respect the culture of the country.

If you don't want to read my arguments, why do you even comment my posts ?

[fightinfrenchman]

Show hidden quotes

@Diarouga It works fine if you're not an asshole.

Define what an asshole is.
And I guess you meant it works fine if noone is an "asshole" rather.

We all know that's pure utopia, and that's why it has never worked in the past, and doesn't work today.

You going to be an asshole to someone who isn't white in your neighborhood?

Everyone deserves to be treated with respect...

Sigh, I see you didn't read my posts...

Assimilation isn't racial, it's cultural. The goal is to unite people around a unique culture, the culture of the country, regardless of their origin and skin colour. As I said, a black guy who acts according to the valuse and culture of his country is better assimilited than a white guy who doesn't like his culture.
This means that everyone is treated with respect, "new people" (by that I mean immigrants who recently came to the country), just need to make a little effort to learn the new culture and values.

Why is that "unique culture" a must ? Because else, society gets split into different communities, with different cultures, ie communautarism, and it's always led to instability and racism.

Frankly, it's a very Western thing to refuse assimilation because "it's not nice" or idk what. Just look at the arabic or asian countries, the stable ones are the assimilationist countries, all the multicultural ones got at least one civil war.

I really have no use to read your posts... There's no use in treating someone differently because they have different values or a different culture.

I'm not treatying them differently. They can have different values or culture in their private life, I'm just asking them to respect the culture of the country.

If you don't want to read my arguments, why do you even comment my posts ?

Just to troll possibly

[007Salt]

Show hidden quotes

@Diarouga It works fine if you're not an asshole.

Define what an asshole is.
And I guess you meant it works fine if noone is an "asshole" rather.

We all know that's pure utopia, and that's why it has never worked in the past, and doesn't work today.

You going to be an asshole to someone who isn't white in your neighborhood?

Everyone deserves to be treated with respect...

Sigh, I see you didn't read my posts...

Assimilation isn't racial, it's cultural. The goal is to unite people around a unique culture, the culture of the country, regardless of their origin and skin colour. As I said, a black guy who acts according to the valuse and culture of his country is better assimilited than a white guy who doesn't like his culture.
This means that everyone is treated with respect, "new people" (by that I mean immigrants who recently came to the country), just need to make a little effort to learn the new culture and values.

Why is that "unique culture" a must ? Because else, society gets split into different communities, with different cultures, ie communautarism, and it's always led to instability and racism.

Frankly, it's a very Western thing to refuse assimilation because "it's not nice" or idk what. Just look at the arabic or asian countries, the stable ones are the assimilationist countries, all the multicultural ones got at least one civil war.

I really have no use to read your posts... There's no use in treating someone differently because they have different values or a different culture.

I'm not treatying them differently. They can have different values or culture in their private life, I'm just asking them to respect the culture of the country.

If you don't want to read my arguments, why do you even comment my posts ?

It's cuz I understand your arguments perfectly. People of a different culture have a right to express themselves as long as they don't commit crimes or intrude on your life.

I don't want to be treated differently when I go on work trips to Mexico and Panama. When I went to those places I was treated with respect by the locals cuz you treat people how you wish to be treated.