On the subject of race

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Re: ESOC and Racism

Post by iNcog »

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Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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Re: ESOC and Racism

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

iNcog wrote:Are you actually that stupid? did you actually just make a comparison between MLK and Stalin?

my, oh my

I need to see myself out. later
Nice strawman xD. I simply said that this quote out of context could have been used by Stalin.
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Re: ESOC and Racism

Post by forgrin »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
forgrin wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Kinda going back to what @[Armag] diarouga and I discussed at some point, it seems like it's a cultural barrier. I initially said that what diarouga said was racist (like 5 threads and over a week ago) because what he said was discriminatory to native people here (whether he intended it or not).
What statement is discriminatory to native people ?
Insisting that the nat gold mining change was for "political reasons" and therefore implying it was invalid, because PC = bad. There's no point in arguing this again, I don't care if you don't think it's a racist statement, we've already been over that. To me, with my experience with minorities and specifically with native Americans, I'm telling you that it's considered a racist statement here.

Also I think a central problem here is that you seem to consider being called "racist" a personal attack. I really don't mean it like that, and most people I know don't either. It's more of a "hey, what you just said is offensive, just wanted you to know so you don't piss anyone off".

I saw that you posted earlier you consider it an attack on your honour; I don't mean it that way at all. I was (and am) trying to let you know that you're saying something offensive to help you, because I know English is your 2nd language and you don't have the personal experience of living in NA. That's it, it's not a personal attack.
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Re: ESOC and Racism

Post by knusch »

forgrin wrote:
knusch wrote:
Hawk_Girl wrote:Neither one here seems to be interested in actually having a conversation where you listen to each other and actually learn from each other.
i'd be curious how you'd go about it? coz as far as i can tell there is literally no point to...

person a: u are racist
person b: i am not because...
person a: u dont know what racism is because you r white. than claim some monopoly on truth since it reflects personal experience. denying or marginalizing my voice is part of racism blablabla you part of the problem blablabla do better!

it is always the same circular argument again and again. no point in arguing anything the same way one shouldnt argue with religious ppl about god.
Kinda going back to what @[Armag] diarouga and I discussed at some point, it seems like it's a cultural barrier. I initially said that what diarouga said was racist (like 5 threads and over a week ago) because what he said was discriminatory to native people here (whether he intended it or not).

The cultural difference is that he doesn't perceive his words as racist because he doesn't have the context of either a) being from the minority group or b) living with them as I do in NA. Therefore he thought he wasn't being racist, because maybe his statement isn't considered racist in France.

Past that point, I dunno. Diarouga can either choose to respect the fact that he said something offensive, probably unintentionally, or do what he did, which is to argue that because it's OK to say it in France, where you have no reference or first-hand knowledge of the situation, it's OK to say it to people in NA. I personally disagree with this idea that racist statements can stop being racist as long as there's a border in between, but in the end that's our fundamental disagreement.
best case scenario is that it is indeed a cultural thing and both sides explain themselfs and get to an common understanding or simply disagree. if one side considers it racist and the other doesn't you have exchanged your positions and part your ways. i dont see any chance of the latter happening tho.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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Re: ESOC and Racism

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

forgrin wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Show hidden quotes
What statement is discriminatory to native people ?
Insisting that the nat gold mining change was for "political reasons" and therefore implying it was invalid, because PC = bad. There's no point in arguing this again, I don't care if you don't think it's a racist statement, we've already been over that. To me, with my experience with minorities and specifically with native Americans, I'm telling you that it's considered a racist statement here.

Also I think a central problem here is that you seem to consider being called "racist" a personal attack. I really don't mean it like that, and most people I know don't either. It's more of a "hey, what you just said is offensive, just wanted you to know so you don't piss anyone off".

I saw that you posted earlier you consider it an attack on your honour; I don't mean it that way at all. I was (and am) trying to let you know that you're saying something offensive to help you, because I know English is your 2nd language and you don't have the personal experience of living in NA. That's it, it's not a personal attack.
I guess you're right and there's no point arguing about it.
I honestly cannot imagine how saying that "a change was made for political reasons ie it's bad" is racist.
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Re: ESOC and Racism

Post by Hawk_Girl »

forgrin wrote:
knusch wrote:
Hawk_Girl wrote:Neither one here seems to be interested in actually having a conversation where you listen to each other and actually learn from each other.
i'd be curious how you'd go about it? coz as far as i can tell there is literally no point to...

person a: u are racist
person b: i am not because...
person a: u dont know what racism is because you r white. than claim some monopoly on truth since it reflects personal experience. denying or marginalizing my voice is part of racism blablabla you part of the problem blablabla do better!

it is always the same circular argument again and again. no point in arguing anything the same way one shouldnt argue with religious ppl about god.
Kinda going back to what @[Armag] diarouga and I discussed at some point, it seems like it's a cultural barrier. I initially said that what diarouga said was racist (like 5 threads and over a week ago) because what he said was discriminatory to native people here (whether he intended it or not).

The cultural difference is that he doesn't perceive his words as racist because he doesn't have the context of either a) being from the minority group or b) living with them as I do in NA. Therefore he thought he wasn't being racist, because maybe his statement isn't considered racist in France.

Past that point, I dunno. Diarouga can either choose to respect the fact that he said something offensive, probably unintentionally, or do what he did, which is to argue that because it's OK to say it in France, where you have no reference or first-hand knowledge of the situation, it's OK to say it to people in NA. I personally disagree with this idea that racist statements can stop being racist as long as there's a border in between, but in the end that's our fundamental disagreement.

The first half of that sounds like the start of something interesting. Then in the second half you eliminate all options for discussion and idea exchange by assorting exactly how it is without room for other opinions. Sad, because I do think there is a discussion to be had about what constitutes racism and not, and for different people. I mean just a week ago you actually thought that there were races that you could divide humans into. That's as racist of an idea that you can get. But even then, I think we can talk and explain our points and try to reach common ground, as we sort of did in the other thread.
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Re: ESOC and Racism

Post by iNcog »

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Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: ESOC and Racism

Post by Hawk_Girl »

iNcog wrote:
princeofkabul wrote:I guess im evil since I don't really do anything about the matter/issue as passionately as you Paul.
You have your beliefs and that's totally fine, however basically in your standards of racism 90 % of esoc prob are involved cooperating with evil.
you edited your post I see

I honestly wouldn't say that. There's honestly a line drawn somewhere. I cannot expect you to take a plane ticket and go to the BLM protests or something like that.

I think that it isn't really just a binary shade of someone being racist or isn't racist. I'd say we all have racial bias in us, whether we're black or white or anything in between. Or man or woman (or anything in between). There is no escaping it because humans are simply wired that way. It's probably more like a spectrum or something (or the line is fuzzy if you prefer). despite my preaching in this thread, racial and sexist bias is in me as well.

I think the best way to approach it is to be aware of the issue. not necessarily fight it or whatever but at the very least just be aware of it. and I wouldn't be aware if I didn't discuss these issues at length with others either way.

if you're getting to the point like diarouga and some others, where you're specifically telling others to be silent at their issues (in this case, OP), it does get a bit dicey. esp since real racism does exist out there and if we aren't careful we can let it take root when it shouldn't have more credibility than it deserves.

perhaps I'm more sensitive to it because I see racism littering my every day life.
Nice message, we all definately have lots of biases in us. Just remember that if someone don't think of the racism you talk of as a big issue, try talk to them kindly and explain your point and not tell them how stupid and ignorant they are. I personally agree with everything you just wrote but I'm just saying alot of people make that mistake, and it's a terrible strategy for changing someones mind.
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Re: ESOC and Racism

Post by comradecommissar »

@iNcog thank you for being a kind, understanding and sympathetic human. More importantly, thank you for taking the stands you have. Thought I'd put it out there. I really appreciate your views on this over the last week.
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Re: ESOC and Racism

Post by iNcog »

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Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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Re: ESOC and Racism

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

lol of course the Indian user is not happy with someone from Pakistan. :/
That's the one and only prejudice I've read in this thread honestly.
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Re: ESOC and Racism

Post by iNcog »

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Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: ESOC and Racism

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

iNcog wrote: I think I would like it if everyone could live a life where they aren't treated like shit for their sex or skin color.
I would like that too.
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Re: ESOC and Racism

Post by iNcog »

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Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: ESOC and Racism

Post by Hawk_Girl »

iNcog wrote:I agree there are probably less toxic ways of getting the point across than flaming. Admittedly this is something that also probably dilutes the message that I am trying to get across. I also understand that it becomes counterproductive to the side of the argument that I am on.

Again though, there are some things that are just not tolerable. and I see these issues every day. I have friends who suffer from this crap rather extensively and I have other people in my surroundings who are really, really bad when it comes to bigotry. I think it comes down to a lack of education or something but I can tell you first hand that racist holds a much heavier place in our world than we think. Perhaps not the case in more progressive European societies, but still.
Yep I definately get that. People's lives are effected by this and this makes so many emotions come into play. Definately something to keep in mind when discussing with people who are really upset
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Re: ESOC and Racism

Post by comradecommissar »

I will make one last attempt to contribute something to this conversation. I genuinely want to talk to anyone who wishes to understand race and racism further. If anyone is interested, I will happily talk to you over discord. You don't have to agree with what I'm saying, but I ask that you please keep an open mind. I also ask that you understand how tiring and emotionally exhausting it is for people of color to have to constantly explain their experiences to those who do not suffer from, and subsequently understand racism. It's a lot of thankless emotional labor, and the reward is often conversations like this post.

For those in this post like @princeofkabul who bring up valid concerns regarding whether they're evil if they're not doing anything about race, I think the distinction that's important to make is between someone who isn't a racist in and of themselves and an anti-racist. The two things are very different. Plenty of people would argue that in a society as plagued by racism as ours, there's no middle ground. To not be a racist yourself but to not speak up against racism means you are giving your tacit approval to the social structures that push people of color down everyday.
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Re: ESOC and Racism

Post by forgrin »

Hawk_Girl wrote:
forgrin wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Kinda going back to what @[Armag] diarouga and I discussed at some point, it seems like it's a cultural barrier. I initially said that what diarouga said was racist (like 5 threads and over a week ago) because what he said was discriminatory to native people here (whether he intended it or not).

The cultural difference is that he doesn't perceive his words as racist because he doesn't have the context of either a) being from the minority group or b) living with them as I do in NA. Therefore he thought he wasn't being racist, because maybe his statement isn't considered racist in France.

Past that point, I dunno. Diarouga can either choose to respect the fact that he said something offensive, probably unintentionally, or do what he did, which is to argue that because it's OK to say it in France, where you have no reference or first-hand knowledge of the situation, it's OK to say it to people in NA. I personally disagree with this idea that racist statements can stop being racist as long as there's a border in between, but in the end that's our fundamental disagreement.

The first half of that sounds like the start of something interesting. Then in the second half you eliminate all options for discussion and idea exchange by assorting exactly how it is without room for other opinions. Sad, because I do think there is a discussion to be had about what constitutes racism and not, and for different people. I mean just a week ago you actually thought that there were races that you could divide humans into. That's as racist of an idea that you can get. But even then, I think we can talk and explain our points and try to reach common ground, as we sort of did in the other thread.
Where do I assert that I know exactly "how it is"? I'm simply saying that, in my experience, and with my knowledge, I viewed that statement as racist. I'm happy to discuss other opinions, as I did with diarouga, and we found that we have differing opinions on that. I also made the argument that because I have more personal experience living in NA my opinion might have a bit more legitimacy to it, which isn't exactly a controversial statement.

Now, I don't know what your opinions are, but if someone said to me that something I said was offensive to another person (and I didn't mean that), I might try to retract that statement and learn how it was offensive. Maybe that's just being too decent of a person?

Also you were (and are) reading way too much into what I said about race and am now making a total strawman out of it, I suspect as a way to invalidate my other points. All I said was that there are some very rough, macro ways to group people, and that these constructs, whether valid genetically or not, still exist socially (which is 100% true statement). I never said that black people are a separate race or subspecies, that was your own incorrect reading of my comments.
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Re: ESOC and Racism

Post by Dolan »

comradecommissar wrote:I will make one last attempt to contribute something to this conversation. I genuinely want to talk to anyone who wishes to understand race and racism further. If anyone is interested, I will happily talk to you over discord. You don't have to agree with what I'm saying, but I ask that you please keep an open mind. I also ask that you understand how tiring and emotionally exhausting it is for people of color to have to constantly explain their experiences to those who do not suffer from, and subsequently understand racism. It's a lot of thankless emotional labor, and the reward is often conversations like this post.
Sure. I'd discuss "racism" with you on discord any day, if we find a common time slot.
I'd debate anyone actually, but again, if you or I find the time.
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Re: ESOC and Racism

Post by comradecommissar »

Dolan wrote:
comradecommissar wrote:I will make one last attempt to contribute something to this conversation. I genuinely want to talk to anyone who wishes to understand race and racism further. If anyone is interested, I will happily talk to you over discord. You don't have to agree with what I'm saying, but I ask that you please keep an open mind. I also ask that you understand how tiring and emotionally exhausting it is for people of color to have to constantly explain their experiences to those who do not suffer from, and subsequently understand racism. It's a lot of thankless emotional labor, and the reward is often conversations like this post.
Sure. I'd discuss "racism" with you on discord any day, if we find a common time slot.
I'd discuss anyone actually, but again, if you or I find the time.
I'm sorry, but I don't feel like you come from a place of genuinely trying to engage in open dialogue. Your message here and past messages in this thread indicate that you deny the existence of racism in the first place. I'd rather only talk to people who genuinely want to understand further.

But hey, if you're serious, here's a nice list of podcasts a friend of mine made a while ago. Maybe you could start with this?
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Re: ESOC and Racism

Post by Hawk_Girl »

forgrin wrote:
Hawk_Girl wrote:
Show hidden quotes

The first half of that sounds like the start of something interesting. Then in the second half you eliminate all options for discussion and idea exchange by assorting exactly how it is without room for other opinions. Sad, because I do think there is a discussion to be had about what constitutes racism and not, and for different people. I mean just a week ago you actually thought that there were races that you could divide humans into. That's as racist of an idea that you can get. But even then, I think we can talk and explain our points and try to reach common ground, as we sort of did in the other thread.
Where do I assert that I know exactly "how it is"? I'm simply saying that, in my experience, and with my knowledge, I viewed that statement as racist. I'm happy to discuss other opinions, as I did with diarouga, and we found that we have differing opinions on that. I also made the argument that because I have more personal experience living in NA my opinion might have a bit more legitimacy to it, which isn't exactly a controversial statement.

Now, I don't know what your opinions are, but if someone said to me that something I said was offensive to another person (and I didn't mean that), I might try to retract that statement and learn how it was offensive. Maybe that's just being too decent of a person?

Also you were (and are) reading way too much into what I said about race and am now making a total strawman out of it, I suspect as a way to invalidate my other points. All I said was that there are some very rough, macro ways to group people, and that these constructs, whether valid genetically or not, still exist socially (which is 100% true statement). I never said that black people are a separate race or subspecies, that was your own incorrect reading of my comments.

The only point I'm making with regards to what you said about race is that noone is perfect and we are all flawed. But you did call out someone being racist while holding the most fundamental racist idea (that humans can be divided to races). There is some value to looking in the mirror before judging others.
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Re: ESOC and Racism

Post by Hawk_Girl »

comradecommissar wrote:I will make one last attempt to contribute something to this conversation. I genuinely want to talk to anyone who wishes to understand race and racism further. If anyone is interested, I will happily talk to you over discord. You don't have to agree with what I'm saying, but I ask that you please keep an open mind. I also ask that you understand how tiring and emotionally exhausting it is for people of color to have to constantly explain their experiences to those who do not suffer from, and subsequently understand racism. It's a lot of thankless emotional labor, and the reward is often conversations like this post.

For those in this post like @princeofkabul who bring up valid concerns regarding whether they're evil if they're not doing anything about race, I think the distinction that's important to make is between someone who isn't a racist in and of themselves and an anti-racist. The two things are very different. Plenty of people would argue that in a society as plagued by racism as ours, there's no middle ground. To not be a racist yourself but to not speak up against racism means you are giving your tacit approval to the social structures that push people of color down everyday.
I get that it's emotionally exhausting for sure. If you want I'd love to have a chat, talk and hear from someone half across the globe would be cool. As long as you can keep an open mind just as I will.
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Re: ESOC and Racism

Post by comradecommissar »

Hawk_Girl wrote:
comradecommissar wrote:I will make one last attempt to contribute something to this conversation. I genuinely want to talk to anyone who wishes to understand race and racism further. If anyone is interested, I will happily talk to you over discord. You don't have to agree with what I'm saying, but I ask that you please keep an open mind. I also ask that you understand how tiring and emotionally exhausting it is for people of color to have to constantly explain their experiences to those who do not suffer from, and subsequently understand racism. It's a lot of thankless emotional labor, and the reward is often conversations like this post.

For those in this post like @princeofkabul who bring up valid concerns regarding whether they're evil if they're not doing anything about race, I think the distinction that's important to make is between someone who isn't a racist in and of themselves and an anti-racist. The two things are very different. Plenty of people would argue that in a society as plagued by racism as ours, there's no middle ground. To not be a racist yourself but to not speak up against racism means you are giving your tacit approval to the social structures that push people of color down everyday.
I get that it's emotionally exhausting for sure. If you want I'd love to have a chat, talk and hear from someone half across the globe would be cool. As long as you can keep an open mind just as I will.
Not as half across the globe as you'd think haha. Currently in the US (and quarantined so have time). But please PM me your discord and I'll add you. Would be happy to text, and yes I will keep an open mind.
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Re: ESOC and Racism

Post by forgrin »

Hawk_Girl wrote:
forgrin wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Where do I assert that I know exactly "how it is"? I'm simply saying that, in my experience, and with my knowledge, I viewed that statement as racist. I'm happy to discuss other opinions, as I did with diarouga, and we found that we have differing opinions on that. I also made the argument that because I have more personal experience living in NA my opinion might have a bit more legitimacy to it, which isn't exactly a controversial statement.

Now, I don't know what your opinions are, but if someone said to me that something I said was offensive to another person (and I didn't mean that), I might try to retract that statement and learn how it was offensive. Maybe that's just being too decent of a person?

Also you were (and are) reading way too much into what I said about race and am now making a total strawman out of it, I suspect as a way to invalidate my other points. All I said was that there are some very rough, macro ways to group people, and that these constructs, whether valid genetically or not, still exist socially (which is 100% true statement). I never said that black people are a separate race or subspecies, that was your own incorrect reading of my comments.

The only point I'm making with regards to what you said about race is that noone is perfect and we are all flawed. But you did call out someone being racist while holding the most fundamental racist idea (that humans can be divided to races). There is some value to looking in the mirror before judging others.
If you actually can't make the distinction between acknowledging race exists as a social construct and actual racially-motivated discrimination, then you really don't have a perspective worth sharing here. Conflating recognition that social boundaries between races exist, and have existed, in society with racially-motivated discrimination is the ultimate "both sides are equally bad" trash tier take.
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Re: ESOC and Racism

Post by Hawk_Girl »

forgrin wrote:
Hawk_Girl wrote:
Show hidden quotes

The only point I'm making with regards to what you said about race is that noone is perfect and we are all flawed. But you did call out someone being racist while holding the most fundamental racist idea (that humans can be divided to races). There is some value to looking in the mirror before judging others.
If you actually can't make the distinction between acknowledging race exists as a social construct and actual racially-motivated discrimination, then you really don't have a perspective worth sharing here. Conflating recognition that social boundaries between races exist, and have existed, in society with racially-motivated discrimination is the ultimate "both sides are equally bad" trash tier take.
Unfortunately you seem to attatch arguments and opinions to me that I don't hold. I've never once said or claimed that "race as a social construct" never existed. The term you should use though is racism, not "race as a social construct". And the unfortunate point is that you claim to have always talked about race as a social construct when you talked about obvious genetic differences and said things like "how do you explain sickle cell anemia" and other likeminded opinions. Later you even said that you read up on this subject and said you learned that you were wrong, which is a wonderful thing as you learned something. I am just pointing out here that maybe you can be a little more humble towards others flaws considering what you claimed to know earlier about races, not as a social construct but as biological differences.
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Re: ESOC and Racism

Post by comradecommissar »

forgrin wrote:
Hawk_Girl wrote:
Show hidden quotes

The only point I'm making with regards to what you said about race is that noone is perfect and we are all flawed. But you did call out someone being racist while holding the most fundamental racist idea (that humans can be divided to races). There is some value to looking in the mirror before judging others.
If you actually can't make the distinction between acknowledging race exists as a social construct and actual racially-motivated discrimination, then you really don't have a perspective worth sharing here. Conflating recognition that social boundaries between races exist, and have existed, in society with racially-motivated discrimination is the ultimate "both sides are equally bad" trash tier take.
To add to what @forgrin is saying, here's a good quote on why recognizing race is actually important if we are to challenge racism. I recommend the book its from too (even if it has its issues).

"I was co-leading a workshop with an African American man. A white participant said to him, "I don't see race; I don't see you as black." My co-trainer's response was, "Then how will you see racism?" He then explained to her that he was black, he was confident that she could see this, and that his race meant that he had a very different experience in life than she did. If she were ever going to understand or challenge racism, she would need to acknowledge this difference. Pretending that she did not notice that he was black was not helpful to him in any way, as it denied his reality - indeed, it refused his reality - and kept hers insular and unchallenged. This pretense that she did not notice his race assumed that he was "just like her," and in so doing, she projected her reality onto him. For example, I feel welcome at work so you must too; I have never felt that my race mattered, so you must feel that yours doesn't either. But of course, we do see the race of other people, and race holds deep social meaning for us."
Robin DiAngelo,
White Fragility: Why It’s So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism

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