The Sex Industry

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The Sex Industry

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Post by XeeleeFlower »

@Dolan and I had the start of an (to me) interesting conversation going, which I felt warranted its own thread. I'm curious. Do you have a problem with consensual sex occurring between 2 people? What if one of them pays for it? I'm going to assume that you don't have a problem with either of those things for the purposes of this thread. Everyone is feel to share their own thoughts, of course. This will be a long read so grab something to drink, maybe some food, get cozy, and settle in.

From here: viewtopic.php?f=315&t=16266&p=480342#p480342
entertainment industry as a whole
my response to the entertainment industry as a whole
Let's talk sex.
Dolan wrote:When it comes to trading sex, ok, this has been going on for millennia, but we managed to turn this into a whole industry that degrades any illusion of sex. If something is widely accessible, even for free, then there's not much left for imagination to discover. And not much motivation to go out and seek it. There's also the thing that we're commercialising things that used to be part of relationships between people. The idea that you could rent someone to pretend they care about you and put on an act of affection for you is degrading for both, imo. It's lame and it also conveys the impression that there's nothing really special about relationships between people, at least nothing that couldn't be turned into a paid service.
I do agree that there is an issue with people’s lack of imagination due to the prevalence of sex. As a romantic, this does bother me. An imagination is so beautiful and one who can titillate my own in a sexual way can just take my money (it’s so hard for me to find, what I consider to be, good porn). However, as a realist, does an imagination really matter? As we move ever closer to merging ourselves with AI, is imagination really all that important? Transhumanism is our future and perhaps having a lack of imagination is important to that being the reality. Sure, some imagination is required to achieve those steps, but how much of imagination is really needed? Is it that important to have a “sexual” imagination? Is it tied into “general” imagination? If so, how much? If not, why make sexual imagination so mystical?

The specialness in relationships between people is the feeling of wanting to share your life with said person. With regards to a romantic partnership, of course sex can also be part of the equation, but I don’t feel that that’s the part that makes it special. Relationships are transactions. I will be there for you and you will be there for me. You give trust and you get trust. You give love and you receive love. Sometimes the relationship is one sided, other times it ebbs and flows. Everything in life is a transaction. I am spending time writing this because I enjoy conversing with people on this site. You get to read my thoughts, I get to share them.

I can’t really tell if you’re okay with the buying/selling of sex or not. You concede that it’s been going on since pretty much the entirety of our human existence, yet you also claim that it’s degrading for both. I fail to see how it’s degrading for both. I know people who have sold sex and I know people who have purchased sex. Neither party has said that they felt degraded. The buyers (one of which is a friend of mine) told me that they enjoyed it and would recommend it while the sellers have all told me that they enjoy their job. Of course, just like any job, there are complaints about different things. In the case of sex work, these things tend to be that the buyers weren’t respectful of boundaries, had poor hygiene, things like that. Never has any sex worker that I have met felt degraded by what they do. Rather, there’s a sense of empowerment that comes with making someone feel amazing. On the buyers side, I’ve read and heard countless stories about how great it is to have good sex, how they enjoyed not needing to have small talk, no pressure to perform, etc. The only complaint that I’ve heard from buyers is that they wish they could’ve lasted longer. No one has said they felt degraded.

There is a very small niche of people who do pay for the illusion that someone cares about them. The buyer and seller of said niche both know and understand what is happening. The seller (if they are ethical, some sadly aren’t) make things very clear up front of what to expect from them and what they expect in return. The thing is though, when you spend a lot of time with someone, there are often some sort of feelings that evolve regardless if the initial understanding was one of buy/sell; thus, people do often actually end up caring for one another in buy/sell sexual relationships, even if it’s non-romantic. There are some sex workers who end the “relationship” enitrely if it reaches that point while others end their buy/sell relationship with their clients and become just friends with them. Sellers often help buyers in areas such as self confidence, which helps the buyers in their “real world” life to perform better at work, build and retain relationships with others, and even feel confident to pursue and retain a romantic relationship with someone.
We've gone so far deep with this process of degradation of human relations, that there are people looking for affection by subbing to some streamers just to get their names mentioned.
So this thing with OnlyFans is just making it official: "ok, guys, I know you're hopeless, so just subscribe to my stream for your daily dose of dopamine that you're going to get by seeing my meat spread out on screen". Instead of solving the problem and creating the conditions that could make people less lonely and more likely to get into relationships, where they wouldn't need to use porn much (if at all), we're just incentivising them to subscribe and compensate their lack of relationships with having sex with images in their heads.
I do agree that there is a problem in our society that has caused so many people to feel disconnected from everyone else. It’s the whole “so connected that it creates disconnect” thing that I think I’ve talked about on here in years past. We will continue to be emotionally disconnected from people as we become ever more connected. Your issue lies with the internet. The sex industry, and those who are part of it, are simply filling a void. People crave connection so much that they are willing to pay for it. Look at the dating websites of old and now dating apps. People pay (with either their money, personal data, watching ads) to meet someone. Hell, people used to pay for advertisements in the paper (anyone know of newspapers) to meet another like minded single in their area. There is absolutely nothing wrong with paying for affection.

Some people on OnlyFans actually engage with their subscribers. Others make it clear what to expect from them and don’t have meaningful conversations with buyers. Ethical sex workers (who are the majority) do these things. Unethical ones, such as the recent Bella Thorne scandal, do not. Not all sex workers who are on OF are “spreading their meat”. There is a huge variety of individuals on there who range from basic toe pics to full on vid porn. Even if everyone was “spreading their meat”, why does that matter? If there’s a demand for something, then there’s going to be people willing to supply that demand for the right price. It has nothing to do with taking advantage of hopelessness. It’s all about supplying people with something they want, and are willing to pay for, in their life.

Once again, many sex workers, whether they work offline or online, help their buyers become more confident in their daily lives, which sometimes leads them to cultivating a relationship with someone special. Other individuals have zero desire to “settle down” with just one person, and/or they don’t care about dating or forming any sort of romantic relationship with someone else, but they do enjoy sex and/or the idea of sex. Sex workers provide these people with something that they want and are willing to pay for.

Solving the problem with people's loneliness isn't something that can just happen overnight. There are so many...so fucking many things that cause one to feel lonely. I often feel lonely even if I'm surrounded by people. Feelings of loneliness can be improved in a myriad of different ways depending on the person. We, as a society, should indeed help others not feel so lonely, but we don't. Sex workers very often do help lonely people.
Also, this idea that "why shouldn't we support women exploiting their bodies to make money, since it happens anyway so this gives them a chance to do it in their own terms" sounds a lot like "why shouldn't we support arms dealers to make money selling weapons, because it happens anyway so better give them a chance to do it in their own terms". You're only looking at things transactionally, without considering the nature of the content itself and the effects of commercialising it.
Trying to make those two things sound similar is beneath you. You know that they are nothing alike.

As I said previously, everything in life is a transaction. Considering the effects of the sex industry, I do agree that there are issues in it. Nothing that you really mentioned, however, other than perhaps the loss of imagination but that has other factors besides the sex industry. I could make another lengthy post talking about my issues with the sex industry if you want though considering that this one is already long enough. I'm also a bit too tipsy, so please forgive this post if it's incoherent (it all makes sense to me right now, but who knows what it's like sober.)
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Re: The Sex Industry

Post by Riotcoke »

I don't have a problem with people selling only themselves, i.e being self employed, and selling sex. If it's a business that's where it becomes too iffy.
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harm reduction is good
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Riotcoke wrote: If it's a business that's where it becomes too iffy.
Why's that?
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deleted_user wrote:
Riotcoke wrote: If it's a business that's where it becomes too iffy.
Why's that?
It's too personal to be big business, people might end being forced to fill quotas etc whilst if the person is self employed they're a free agent only subservant to themselves.
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wow you hate capitalism
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Re: The Sex Industry

Post by Riotcoke »

deleted_user wrote:wow you hate capitalism
Sex shouldn't be the matter of business though, it's far too personal, working in a shop or some shit is not personal.
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Re: The Sex Industry

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Riotcoke wrote:
deleted_user wrote:
Riotcoke wrote: If it's a business that's where it becomes too iffy.
Why's that?
It's too personal to be big business, people might end being forced to fill quotas etc whilst if the person is self employed they're a free agent only subservant to themselves.
Funny, I think the way forward for the sex industry is to be more "big business". At the moment the thought of paying for sex, brings the idea of women on the corner, or some dark dingy brothel. If the industry could get to a point of less taboo-ness (and be legal) then the idea of a more "open", professional, clean and transparent business environment would be best. It would be much easier to regulate and ensure the safety for all involved, and people going to buy would feel less shame and would feel better about knowing that the people selling are doing it for the right reasons.
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Re: The Sex Industry

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Your post focuses a lot on the 'relationship' part of the sex industry, which is fine and on which I don't have any particularly strong views about. But let's not forget the other side: sex workers in the notorious Red Light District are often human trafficked from Eastern Europe and work under terrible circumstances. Here's a statement from a victim in which she describes being trafficked, beaten, and overworked. To become a bit more philosophical, some psychologists even claim that sex work is never a free choice, but a form of violence. Farley's research claims 71% of prostitutes suffer from disassociation due to their work while two-thirds suffer from PTSD. It is hard to get concrete numbers on this issue, but a rapport from the national watchdog (Corrine Dettmeijer) found that the level of human trafficking is estimated to be 5 times higher than what is currently thought.

Both from a legal and economic point of view, this is why we should criminalize sex workers and the buyers of sex work.
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Re: The Sex Industry

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Nothing graphic but themes and ideas that may be disturbing. 18+
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chris1089 wrote:
Nothing graphic but themes and ideas that may be disturbing. 18+
1. Why is it immoral? If sex isn't immoral why is buying/selling it immoral? Surely it is more immoral to deny people their freedoms to do and act as they want in a consensual situation. Unless you believe sex is immoral?

2. Nonetheless something being immoral doesn't make it alone a good enough reason to be illegal. Lying is immoral. Have we criminalised it? (Also no need to get into semantics here of lying under oath etc. The act of lying in general isn't.)

3. It is hard to enforce. Hence the drive to make it legal, and regulate it properly. The same argument for drugs. De-criminalisation allows for regulation to intervene to ensure the safety of all involved. Imagine your friendly WHS officer walking into the brothel and being able to check everyone's records, make sure no one is cooking the books, everyone is getting paid properly. You could do 3-month check-ins with all workers to ensure they are fine, not being harmed at work and doing what they want to do.

Your second point is a bit silly imo. Why would we let 2 14yr olds do it? Neither of them can consent. Yes, most countries pretty much turn a blind-eye to these situations when ages are similar but that becomes very different when money becomes involved. You have to be 18 to be able to make pornography, it would be the same here. Again this is the advantage of regulation. You can ensure the people participating are of the right age, and aren't being trafficked. A 10yr old and a 20yr old would be rape so I'm not remotely sure why you even included it in these examples. If 1 person wants to pay to sleep with 3 others at the same time, or 3 people pay to sleep with 1 at the same time I don't see the issue?

4.Yes there is the serious issue of the slave trade, however I don't see how keeping it illegal helps the situation? Then they just end up in jail? Or are in dingy dens where pimps control their lives anyway? That seems like a much worse road to go down. I guess the counter argument is that legalisation would drive demand up but I'm not sure if there would be a strong enough correlation. I imagine stats would be very hard to find in regards to demand for sex work in criminalised/non-criminalised countries and comparing them.

5. Yes, but I think that is a bit of a different issue. Porn is probably much more like to have a poor effect on relationships and intimacy, than with wanting to go see a prostitute or not. I think as what Xeelee was alluding to or said, was that prostitutes may even help this situation as it may be more of a pressure free environment to explore issues that are a by-product of porn addiction or watching or whatever. Nonetheless the solution to porn, is changing the porn industry (which has plenty of problems as well which are also avoided due to the taboo nature), it is having open and honest conversations about addictions, getting therapy etc. Saying all that though, porn in itself isn't a problem, it just has a some issues surrounding it. It is the same as alcohol or gambling in that regard.
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Re: The Sex Industry

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Mr_Bramboy wrote:Your post focuses a lot on the 'relationship' part of the sex industry, which is fine and on which I don't have any particularly strong views about. But let's not forget the other side: sex workers in the notorious Red Light District are often human trafficked from Eastern Europe and work under terrible circumstances. Here's a statement from a victim in which she describes being trafficked, beaten, and overworked. To become a bit more philosophical, some psychologists even claim that sex work is never a free choice, but a form of violence. Farley's research claims 71% of prostitutes suffer from disassociation due to their work while two-thirds suffer from PTSD. It is hard to get concrete numbers on this issue, but a rapport from the national watchdog (Corrine Dettmeijer) found that the level of human trafficking is estimated to be 5 times higher than what is currently thought.

Both from a legal and economic point of view, this is why we should criminalize sex workers and the buyers of sex work.
I didn't talk about this side of the sex industry because it wasn't part of the current discussion I had with Dolan. I'll write out my thoughts responding to this and to @chris1089 post at some point. I do feel your post as well as his do bring up very valid concerns. Be prepared for another lengthy post where I discuss my qualms with the sex industry.
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Re: The Sex Industry

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Recommend watching "The Deuce" for people interested in the subject.
Mr_Bramboy wrote:Your post focuses a lot on the 'relationship' part of the sex industry, which is fine and on which I don't have any particularly strong views about. But let's not forget the other side: sex workers in the notorious Red Light District are often human trafficked from Eastern Europe and work under terrible circumstances. Here's a statement from a victim in which she describes being trafficked, beaten, and overworked. To become a bit more philosophical, some psychologists even claim that sex work is never a free choice, but a form of violence. Farley's research claims 71% of prostitutes suffer from disassociation due to their work while two-thirds suffer from PTSD. It is hard to get concrete numbers on this issue, but a rapport from the national watchdog (Corrine Dettmeijer) found that the level of human trafficking is estimated to be 5 times higher than what is currently thought.

Both from a legal and economic point of view, this is why we should criminalize sex workers and the buyers of sex work.
Then it becomes even more shady? It should be legalized and regulated.
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I think Dolan is a smart person with unique perspective, i like to read his posts.
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HUMMAN wrote:I think Dolan is a smart person with unique perspective, i like to read his posts.
Top quality poster
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Re: The Sex Industry

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wardby1 wrote:1. Why is it immoral? If sex isn't immoral why is buying/selling it immoral? Surely it is more immoral to deny people their freedoms to do and act as they want in a consensual situation. Unless you believe sex is immoral?
No. None of these reasons. It's because I believe the creator of the universe has designed sex as a good gift to be enjoyed within the lifelong covenant of marriage between a man and a woman. Prostitution is outside of these parameters.
2. Nonetheless something being immoral doesn't make it alone a good enough reason to be illegal. Lying is immoral. Have we criminalised it? (Also no need to get into semantics here of lying under oath etc. The act of lying in general isn't.)
Spot on. it was a rhetorical question.

3. It is hard to enforce. Hence the drive to make it legal, and regulate it properly. The same argument for drugs. De-criminalisation allows for regulation to intervene to ensure the safety of all involved. Imagine your friendly WHS officer walking into the brothel and being able to check everyone's records, make sure no one is cooking the books, everyone is getting paid properly. You could do 3-month check-ins with all workers to ensure they are fine, not being harmed at work and doing what they want to do.
I think this is a reasonable argument, but I think the other reasons outweigh it. I think we have a situation also in the UK at least where it's technically illegal but it's not in practise, which I think is probably worse than either regulated legalisation or cracking down on it and deterring it in the first place.
Your second point is a bit silly imo. Why would we let 2 14yr olds do it? Neither of them can consent. Yes, most countries pretty much turn a blind-eye to these situations when ages are similar but that becomes very different when money becomes involved. You have to be 18 to be able to make pornography, it would be the same here. Again this is the advantage of regulation. You can ensure the people participating are of the right age, and aren't being trafficked. A 10yr old and a 20yr old would be rape so I'm not remotely sure why you even included it in these examples. If 1 person wants to pay to sleep with 3 others at the same time, or 3 people pay to sleep with 1 at the same time I don't see the issue?
I actually think this is the strongest argument, but you've struggled to understand slippery slope arguments when I've used them in the past so I'll try and spell it out for you. What is the right age? 18, 17.999999, 16, 15.99999, 15.99998,...14.00001,14? Why not 1 second younger? or a second younger than that? What changes in that second that makes the individual capable of consenting or not able to consent? In the Roman empire 14 year olds could get married? Were they not able to consent then? Why are they not able to consent now?

What if the 2 people are engaging in a contract they see as mutually beneficial between free agents? Why can and 18 year old and a 20 year old make such a contract, but not a 17.999 year old and a 20 year old, or a 17.998 year old etc?

Do you get what I'm saying?
4.Yes there is the serious issue of the slave trade, however I don't see how keeping it illegal helps the situation? Then they just end up in jail? Or are in dingy dens where pimps control their lives anyway? That seems like a much worse road to go down. I guess the counter argument is that legalisation would drive demand up but I'm not sure if there would be a strong enough correlation. I imagine stats would be very hard to find in regards to demand for sex work in criminalised/non-criminalised countries and comparing them.
Well in the case of the slave trade they already are in dingy dens where pimps control their lives. And if you are a slave you would be liberated, not put on trial - it's the slave traders who would be locked up in jail.

I hope that's clarified my positions a bit more. Might help @XeeleeFlower interact with them.
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chris1089 wrote:I actually think this is the strongest argument, but you've struggled to understand slippery slope arguments when I've used them in the past so I'll try and spell it out for you. What is the right age? 18, 17.999999, 16, 15.99999, 15.99998,...14.00001,14? Why not 1 second younger? or a second younger than that? What changes in that second that makes the individual capable of consenting or not able to consent? In the Roman empire 14 year olds could get married? Were they not able to consent then? Why are they not able to consent now?

What if the 2 people are engaging in a contract they see as mutually beneficial between free agents? Why can and 18 year old and a 20 year old make such a contract, but not a 17.999 year old and a 20 year old, or a 17.998 year old etc?

Do you get what I'm saying?
18 is an arbitrary number, but what about that makes it a "slippery slope"?
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Because there is no objective standard by which to judge it. If it's good and right for and 18.0000001 year old to do something, it would be cruel and wrong to deny a 17.99999 year old from doing that same thing. What's the difference? Mathematically if you consider the limit as they tend to 18 there is no age difference yet they are different sides of the number. It would be legal for one and illegal for the other.
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I just agreed with you that it's arbitrary. My question was how does that lead to a slippery slope? Do you think 18 will change to 16 over time, or what?
I ask because that seems really unlikely to me. More likely (and appropriate, imo) would be that it goes to 20+.
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Goodspeed wrote:I just agreed with you that it's arbitrary. My question was how does that lead to a slippery slope? Do you think 18 will change to 16 over time, or what?
I ask because that seems really unlikely to me. More likely (and appropriate, imo) would be that it goes to 20+.
I'm arguing that it's morally a problem, not that it necessarily must go there legally. (Though I do think child-adult relationships are coming in one of the next phases of the sexual revolution)
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chris1089 wrote:
wardby1 wrote:1. Why is it immoral? If sex isn't immoral why is buying/selling it immoral? Surely it is more immoral to deny people their freedoms to do and act as they want in a consensual situation. Unless you believe sex is immoral?
No. None of these reasons. It's because I believe the creator of the universe has designed sex as a good gift to be enjoyed within the lifelong covenant of marriage between a man and a woman. Prostitution is outside of these parameters.
Yeah ok, so we will just agree to disagree here.
2. Nonetheless something being immoral doesn't make it alone a good enough reason to be illegal. Lying is immoral. Have we criminalised it? (Also no need to get into semantics here of lying under oath etc. The act of lying in general isn't.)
Spot on. it was a rhetorical question.
Ok sure. It sounded like you were using it to support your argument so I wasn't sure.
3. It is hard to enforce. Hence the drive to make it legal, and regulate it properly. The same argument for drugs. De-criminalisation allows for regulation to intervene to ensure the safety of all involved. Imagine your friendly WHS officer walking into the brothel and being able to check everyone's records, make sure no one is cooking the books, everyone is getting paid properly. You could do 3-month check-ins with all workers to ensure they are fine, not being harmed at work and doing what they want to do.
I think this is a reasonable argument, but I think the other reasons outweigh it. I think we have a situation also in the UK at least where it's technically illegal but it's not in practise, which I think is probably worse than either regulated legalisation or cracking down on it and deterring it in the first place.
Ok again we will agree to disagree as I think your other reasons don't hold any weight, but I still see your POV.
Your second point is a bit silly imo. Why would we let 2 14yr olds do it? Neither of them can consent. Yes, most countries pretty much turn a blind-eye to these situations when ages are similar but that becomes very different when money becomes involved. You have to be 18 to be able to make pornography, it would be the same here. Again this is the advantage of regulation. You can ensure the people participating are of the right age, and aren't being trafficked. A 10yr old and a 20yr old would be rape so I'm not remotely sure why you even included it in these examples. If 1 person wants to pay to sleep with 3 others at the same time, or 3 people pay to sleep with 1 at the same time I don't see the issue?
I actually think this is the strongest argument, but you've struggled to understand slippery slope arguments when I've used them in the past so I'll try and spell it out for you. What is the right age? 18, 17.999999, 16, 15.99999, 15.99998,...14.00001,14? Why not 1 second younger? or a second younger than that? What changes in that second that makes the individual capable of consenting or not able to consent? In the Roman empire 14 year olds could get married? Were they not able to consent then? Why are they not able to consent now?

What if the 2 people are engaging in a contract they see as mutually beneficial between free agents? Why can and 18 year old and a 20 year old make such a contract, but not a 17.999 year old and a 20 year old, or a 17.998 year old etc?

Do you get what I'm saying?
I get what you're saying. I just think it is a terrible argument. Most of the western world agrees that ages 16-18-21 are all times when people make jumps into adulthood. That is where society has landed based on science and real-world experience. We let people start drinking at 18 legally, despite knowing that alcohol inhibits brain development with the brain still developing till age 25. Why? Because it is a compromise. The world has birthdays as an idea. Therefore it makes sense we use those days as recognition for when people are ready to make certain decisions. The idea that it could instead be 17.8 or 19.4 as the age it happens isn't an argument against legalisation. It is pretty irrelevant. Most of the time we say you are an adult at 18, therefore it would be logical that you can do this at 18.
4.Yes there is the serious issue of the slave trade, however I don't see how keeping it illegal helps the situation? Then they just end up in jail? Or are in dingy dens where pimps control their lives anyway? That seems like a much worse road to go down. I guess the counter argument is that legalisation would drive demand up but I'm not sure if there would be a strong enough correlation. I imagine stats would be very hard to find in regards to demand for sex work in criminalised/non-criminalised countries and comparing them.
Well in the case of the slave trade they already are in dingy dens where pimps control their lives. And if you are a slave you would be liberated, not put on trial - it's the slave traders who would be locked up in jail.
My problem with this is that the real world generally isn't as pretty as the "slaves" being liberated. What happens is if someone is caught working the corner, they get thrown in the cop car, sat in a cell, they get some shitty legal aid lawyer and they get prosecuted. Even if someone manages to flip and get their pimp (is there a better word than pimp? I feel like it is a shit word to describe this) in trouble and they themselves manage to remove themselves from the situation, the actual traffickers will continue to operate freely.
“To love the journey is to accept no such end. I have found, through painful experience, that the most important step a person can take is always the next one.”
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Re: The Sex Industry

Post by wardyb1 »

chris1089 wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:I just agreed with you that it's arbitrary. My question was how does that lead to a slippery slope? Do you think 18 will change to 16 over time, or what?
I ask because that seems really unlikely to me. More likely (and appropriate, imo) would be that it goes to 20+.
I'm arguing that it's morally a problem, not that it necessarily must go there legally. (Though I do think child-adult relationships are coming in one of the next phases of the sexual revolution)
If you haven't noticed, pedo's are pretty universally hated. The idea that people are going to start supporting them for some "sexual revolution" is pretty delusional.
“To love the journey is to accept no such end. I have found, through painful experience, that the most important step a person can take is always the next one.”
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Re: The Sex Industry

Post by iNcog »

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Reason: on request (off-topic bulk delete)
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Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.

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