European politics

[harcha]

and genuinely think US and Ukraine are not at fault here and Russia should be blamed/bad guy?

Ukranian in Ukraine:

[princeofcarthage]

That despite the overwhelming evidence of another storytelling by western world, how the world, at least the common people in western world are fooled by it, again, and genuinely think US and Ukraine are not at fault here and Russia should be blamed/bad guy? One of the most manipulative and propaganda spewing nation and a very good comedian actor. Match made in heaven.

Russia tried to be that imperialist superpower that the USA managed to be for a while, but they failed, so they threw this tantrum with Ukraine, trying to flex their "superpower" military against a smaller country.
This failed miserably so now they're in total cope mode, trying to secure that strip of land on the southeast side of Ukraine at least, to save face. They might be able to pull that off, if they throw enough cannon fodder and resources at it, but they'll come out paying such a high price for it, USSR 2.0 awaits them.
Now they're going into cold war era military spending, while their population is likely to get poorer due to sanctions.
What is going to happen is that the last territorial empire in Europe, Russia, will USSR again, as some of its fringe republics won't be able to get their funding by having special relationships in Moscow, once Putin gets swept on a dustpan.
So Putin will get his USSR moment again, but it's gonna be the other one.

Yeah, this is the brainwashing and western storytelling I am speaking about. Here is a dose of reality for you. US continued to strangle Russia after USSR collapsed. A slow noose tightening around the neck. Russia finally had enough and retaliated. Since Ukraine was the immediate American Puppet, it faced the burnt.

None of the powers you mention are imperialistic in nature. China has existed as a single homogeneous society for centuries. Sure there were different dynasties and empires within but largely people followed a similar way of life. India is also pretty much same until Mughals and Europeans came who sowed the seeds of division. Know the imperial powers? US, built on lands stolen and colonized from natives and the continued *slavery* of indigenous and minorities (at this point they even maybe majority who knows). Israel, Ukraine, Latvia all the nations built on stolen and colonized lands. Where is imperialism still going on? In western world. Which countries are engaged in imperialism? Western world. US stealing billions of dollars from Iraq and Afghanistan, Letting millions of civilians starve. I don't see India or China doing that. I don't see Japan doing that. Even Russia doesn't do that for all its cruelty. There is well defined proof and history of US (and other western nations) doing this.

[princeofcarthage]

and genuinely think US and Ukraine are not at fault here and Russia should be blamed/bad guy?

Ukranian in Ukraine:

Yeah, if you live your whole life in one country you usually die in the same country. What is the story behind the picture, could be a heart attack, could be an accident. And why are people taking photos instead of helping him. Who has verified the story. How do you know its Ukraine. Could be propaganda for all you know.

[harcha]

Valid points. Let me side with the guy who shot him now.

[Dolan]

That despite the overwhelming evidence of another storytelling by western world, how the world, at least the common people in western world are fooled by it, again, and genuinely think US and Ukraine are not at fault here and Russia should be blamed/bad guy? One of the most manipulative and propaganda spewing nation and a very good comedian actor. Match made in heaven.

Russia tried to be that imperialist superpower that the USA managed to be for a while, but they failed, so they threw this tantrum with Ukraine, trying to flex their "superpower" military against a smaller country.
This failed miserably so now they're in total cope mode, trying to secure that strip of land on the southeast side of Ukraine at least, to save face. They might be able to pull that off, if they throw enough cannon fodder and resources at it, but they'll come out paying such a high price for it, USSR 2.0 awaits them.
Now they're going into cold war era military spending, while their population is likely to get poorer due to sanctions.
What is going to happen is that the last territorial empire in Europe, Russia, will USSR again, as some of its fringe republics won't be able to get their funding by having special relationships in Moscow, once Putin gets swept on a dustpan.
So Putin will get his USSR moment again, but it's gonna be the other one.

Yeah, this is the brainwashing and western storytelling I am speaking about. Here is a dose of reality for you. US continued to strangle Russia after USSR collapsed. A slow noose tightening around the neck. Russia finally had enough and retaliated. Since Ukraine was the immediate American Puppet, it faced the burnt.

None of the powers you mention are imperialistic in nature. China has existed as a single homogeneous society for centuries. Sure there were different dynasties and empires within but largely people followed a similar way of life. India is also pretty much same until Mughals and Europeans came who sowed the seeds of division. Know the imperial powers? US, built on lands stolen and colonized from natives and the continued *slavery* of indigenous and minorities (at this point they even maybe majority who knows). Israel, Ukraine, Latvia all the nations built on stolen and colonized lands. Where is imperialism still going on? In western world. Which countries are engaged in imperialism? Western world. US stealing billions of dollars from Iraq and Afghanistan, Letting millions of civilians starve. I don't see India or China doing that. I don't see Japan doing that. Even Russia doesn't do that for all its cruelty. There is well defined proof and history of US (and other western nations) doing this.

Dude, you continue to weave these stories around a moralistic thread of "USA bad, Russia good" as if that's how the world evolves, according to some predefined moralistic determinism. As if what will happen will be in accordance to some moralistic logic. USA will get wrecked because it's evil and goody two shoes Russia will flourish and get bigga because they were so wronged and victimised by the evil American empire. Everyone who upset you will get their comeuppance.

I was describing how things will evolve according to a shifting power relations dynamic. I wasn't really focused much on the moral of it, though you could occasionally see that in history too. But most of the time is just evolutions that are indifferent to our wishful thinking. You keep trying to dream this "Russia-China-India axis stronk" narrative into reality, as if things will just fall into place like that just because you're upset at the USA.

Yeah, the USA decimated natives to establish that colonial union and so did Russia when they so kindly and ethically did the following:

- cleansed Siberia of Turkic-Mongolian natives by annexing their territory in medieval times,

- when they cleansed the Far East of Koreans deporting them to Central Asia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_Koreans_in_the_Soviet_Union),

- when they ethnically cleansed the Caucasus of Karachays by deporting them to Kazakh regions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Karachays),

- when they ethnically cleansed the North Caucasus of Balkars by deporting them to Central Asia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Balkars),

- when the Vainakh were completely removed from their lands and moved to Central Asia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Chechens_and_Ingush),

- when Russia/USSR removed the entire population of Turks from Georgia and moved it to Central Asia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Meskhetian_Turks),

- when Russia deported almost 100 thousand Kalmyks to forced labour camps in Siberia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Kalmyks),

- when they ethnically cleansed Crimea of Tatar natives and replaced them with the Russians that today are the "majority native population of Crimea" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars),

- when they deported Romanian natives from Bessarabia to Siberian gulags and so on.

One of the main reasons why those Far East territories today are controlled by Russia today is because they ethnically cleansed the natives and replaced them with Russians.
Demographic engineering works and has often wiped out almost entire populations that previously were a majority in those lands. But why am I explaining this because your allegiance to Russia doesn't have a rational basis so you won't be convinced by arguments or facts, you will still try to find some mental gymnastics to make all these facts look like acts of magnanimous benevolence on the part of the good and misunderstood Russia and the brave and hearty Russian people who killed and deported those Asian natives because they had their best interests in mind.

I still wrote this because it needs to be written, to be made explicit so people can get reminded how that Euroasian landmass called Russia today was built on theft and demographic engineering.

[princeofcarthage]

Valid points. Let me side with the guy who shot him now.

How do you know he was shot.

[princeofcarthage]

@Dolan lmao. I never said Russia good USA bad in black and white terms. Only said that USA is to blame for the current situation and not Russia. Also once again even though Russia maybe successor to USSR, russia != ussr. Dont blame russia for something done by a larger entity of which russia was just a subset. In that case equally blame ukraine, romania, latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, poland, half of germany for all those events you described. Secondly, it is possible that some of the eastern lands were taken in ways as bad as usa but 95% of chunk of land was just plain empty unclaimed. Sure some people lived there. But they had no organizational, societal structure or identity. And even if they had, they had never established it.

[Dolan]

@Dolan lmao. I never said Russia good USA bad in black and white terms. Only said that USA is to blame for the current situation and not Russia.

But who cares who's to blame. If the situation will evolve according to a logic of power relations, which is something you claimed you subscribe to too, then it's pointless to keep banging on about evil this good that.
It's also a waste of time because the situation has already evolved to a point that is not reversible, so discussing 'what coulda been' or 'mighta been' is late now.

Also once again even though Russia maybe successor to USSR, russia != ussr. Dont blame russia for something done by a larger entity of which russia was just a subset.

We've been thru this tens of times. Once again, even Russia admits they are the direct successor of the USSR.

In that case equally blame ukraine, romania, latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, poland, half of germany for all those events you described. Secondly, it is possible that some of the eastern lands were taken in ways as bad as usa but 95% of chunk of land was just plain empty unclaimed. Sure some people lived there. But they had no organizational, societal structure or identity. And even if they had, they had never established it.

Those people who were ethnically cleansed were to blame for being sent to gulags? Well then Indians were to blame for being conquered by the Brits, then. Also they were to blame for going through a famine under the Brits' administration. The victim is always to blame because they couldn't play a power move in that situation.

It's just not true that they had no statal structures. The Khanate of Sibir existed in Siberia before the Russians annexed it.
Outer Manchuria was ruled by Qing Chinese dynasties before getting gobbled up by Russian annexation.
The Khanate of Khiva existed before they got annexed by the Russian empire.
The Astrakhan Khanate existed at the mouths of the Volga before it got conquered and annexed by imperialist Russia.

We're talking about territories that were once populated by majority Tatars, Mongols, Turkics and other Caucasus people that were eventually driven out by relocation during the USSR, by being sent to regions where Russians were already a majority, so they would lose their political weight. Once they were turned into a minority in another region, they lost their native culture and were assimilated and many of them today are declared Russians.
Annexation, deportation, assimilation. The Russian method of building empire through population control then claiming some other neighbouring state doesn't respect the local Russophone minority rights so they need to be annexed too and have more Russians sent there to fix the problem. Like it happened in Crimea and many other regions.

[Dolan]

Here's how Russians from Yakutsk, Far East Russia, look like

[harcha]

@Dolan lmao. I never said Russia good USA bad in black and white terms. Only said that USA is to blame for the current situation and not Russia. Also once again even though Russia maybe successor to USSR, russia != ussr. Dont blame russia for something done by a larger entity of which russia was just a subset. In that case equally blame ukraine, romania, latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, poland, half of germany for all those events you described. Secondly, it is possible that some of the eastern lands were taken in ways as bad as usa but 95% of chunk of land was just plain empty unclaimed. Sure some people lived there. But they had no organizational, societal structure or identity. And even if they had, they had never established it.

??? You should click Dolans links and check in which year those things happened. Soviet history confuses you so much...
It's not about the empty lands. It's about lives and history erased and entire cultures disseminated into nomads.

[princeofcarthage]

@Dolan yeah, you should check meaning of the term successor. You are the successor of your family, should you be blamed or put in jail for crimes committed by your predecessors (hypothetically speaking).

[Dolan]

@Dolan yeah, you should check meaning of the term successor. You are the successor of your family, should you be blamed or put in jail for crimes committed by your predecessors (hypothetically speaking).

Not fully comparable, but some things are legally inheritable, like debt or taxes on handed down property.
In the case of USSR, it's convenient for Russia to claim successsion because if they didn't they'd lose their seat in the Security Council at the UN, for example, and a lot of clout around the world where they had some networks of influence from the former USSR sphere (South America, Middle East, Africa).

But anyway, it's just a reality that within that USSR system, Russia was the main powerbroker, not Azerbaijan or Ukraine. Sure, occasionally some leaders came from some of those republics, but where was the seat of power of the USSR leadership? Moscow. Not Frunze, not Baku, not Kiev. Moscow. That's where you validated yourself as a leader of the USSR.

[princeofcarthage]

Yeah, and 500+ states voted to join hands together and still keep Delhi as the capital. Or that Washington remained the capital of US despite extending till the extreme opposite end of the continent. Moscow was most developed and stable at the time being far away from wars(except internals) and a general era of peace(in terms of wars on Moscow soil). It was also sufficiently far away from other major powers so that Blitzkrieg style invasions would fail. We saw what happened to Paris when Germans invaded. Also at the time many cities like Kiev were under rebel occupations. And many other countries joined USSR after or during world war 2. Besides USSR emerged from Russia which at the time controlled many of these regions. So they were technically part of USSR/Russia at the time. So its natural that Moscow would be the capital. Capital of predecessor state, most developed city in the country, safest country in the city. All administrative offices were already setup there. Makes sense to keep it as capital.

[princeofcarthage]

@Dolan lmao. I never said Russia good USA bad in black and white terms. Only said that USA is to blame for the current situation and not Russia.

But who cares who's to blame. If the situation will evolve according to a logic of power relations, which is something you claimed you subscribe to too, then it's pointless to keep banging on about evil this good that.
It's also a waste of time because the situation has already evolved to a point that is not reversible, so discussing 'what coulda been' or 'mighta been' is late now.

It is obviously reversible. Europe could still reject US. Reverse the sanctions. Reject EU membership to rebellious state of Ukraine. Compensate Russia for the damages and get the hell out of Russian territory. US could also still do the same to be fair. Or both Europe and US could do it together as well.

[princeofcarthage]

@Dolan lmao. I never said Russia good USA bad in black and white terms. Only said that USA is to blame for the current situation and not Russia. Also once again even though Russia maybe successor to USSR, russia != ussr. Dont blame russia for something done by a larger entity of which russia was just a subset. In that case equally blame ukraine, romania, latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, poland, half of germany for all those events you described. Secondly, it is possible that some of the eastern lands were taken in ways as bad as usa but 95% of chunk of land was just plain empty unclaimed. Sure some people lived there. But they had no organizational, societal structure or identity. And even if they had, they had never established it.

??? You should click Dolans links and check in which year those things happened. Soviet history confuses you so much...
It's not about the empty lands. It's about lives and history erased and entire cultures disseminated into nomads.

I checked all those links, love. They are between 1937-1945. Many of them are even disputable to be fair.

[Dolan]

Yeah, and 500+ states voted to join hands together and still keep Delhi as the capital. Or that Washington remained the capital of US despite extending till the extreme opposite end of the continent. Moscow was most developed and stable at the time being far away from wars(except internals) and a general era of peace(in terms of wars on Moscow soil). It was also sufficiently far away from other major powers so that Blitzkrieg style invasions would fail. We saw what happened to Paris when Germans invaded. Also at the time many cities like Kiev were under rebel occupations. And many other countries joined USSR after or during world war 2. Besides USSR emerged from Russia which at the time controlled many of these regions. So they were technically part of USSR/Russia at the time. So its natural that Moscow would be the capital. Capital of predecessor state, most developed city in the country, safest country in the city. All administrative offices were already setup there. Makes sense to keep it as capital.

The way the USSR was constituted is not similar to how India and the USA came to be. The USSR was an ideological creation, built around the former imperial Russia after it was taken over by a communist revolutionary elite. WIthout Russia, the USSR could have never existed. It was like a big planet exerting gravitational force on nearby asteroids and meteors and pulling them within its orbit. And after they managed to do that, Stalin realised that if you want to make such a union invulnerable to local rebelions, you have to destroy local ethnic identities by displacing them, mixing them around, creating a salad of ethnicities thrown around at a great distance from their original territory. They wanted to prevent any nationalist movement appearing in those soviet republics and ethnic cleansing and demographic engineering and replacement were the tools to get this done. Because that's the only major political force Moscow would expect to challenge its legitimacy as a power centre: some people in a region claiming the union was a Russian vampire extending its imperialist tentacles under the guise of building the communist, internationalist utopia.

I don't see many points of intersection with either India or the USA. Both were more or less colonial creations. If I'm not mistaken modern India was created after the Brits left and the previous small states that were governed under the same British rule decided to go back to being part of the same structure that the Brits created. So they found utility in keeping that colonial big entity created by the Brits, rather than each state going it alone.

As for the USA, it's more complicated than either India or the USSR. First there were the 13 British colonies that split from the Brit crown and created basically another British state outside Britain, a colonial one. Then the other states joined one by one, but each state has its own history of how they ended up joining the USA. Texas for example at some point was a Mexican state until some Americans started spreading there to take advantage of local opportunities for plantations, until they created enough political force to lead a revolution against the Mexican rule. Other states were just bought with the Louisiana Purchase from the French crown. It's a wholly unique history that lacks the ideological thrust that was behind the creation of the USSR.

While I heard people call the way the Russian empire was created colonialism, I have some doubts you can call it that way, when most of their annexations were through direct conquest, rather than gradual settlement.

[Dolan]

@Dolan lmao. I never said Russia good USA bad in black and white terms. Only said that USA is to blame for the current situation and not Russia.

But who cares who's to blame. If the situation will evolve according to a logic of power relations, which is something you claimed you subscribe to too, then it's pointless to keep banging on about evil this good that.
It's also a waste of time because the situation has already evolved to a point that is not reversible, so discussing 'what coulda been' or 'mighta been' is late now.

It is obviously reversible. Europe could still reject US. Reverse the sanctions. Reject EU membership to rebellious state of Ukraine. Compensate Russia for the damages and get the hell out of Russian territory. US could also still do the same to be fair. Or both Europe and US could do it together as well.

Who is in Russian territory? I don't follow the news much, just look at the main headlines, so I might have missed this. Did anyone invade Russia lately?
Nobody goes back on those kinds of measures if they ever had enough political sense to adopt them. You don't just go heavy on sanctions and then reverse them and say whoops, I didn't mean that. Russia doesn't have much leverage in this situation, because Western states have already decided they cannot continue to fund Russia no matter what consequences this will have.
I think some countries didn't want to be faced with the consequences of cutting off Russia from Western funds so fast, they wanted more time for an orderly transition.
But at this point it's all a question of path dependence, once they engaged on this path, there's no going back.

[princeofcarthage]

Show hidden quotes

@Dolan lmao. I never said Russia good USA bad in black and white terms. Only said that USA is to blame for the current situation and not Russia.

But who cares who's to blame. If the situation will evolve according to a logic of power relations, which is something you claimed you subscribe to too, then it's pointless to keep banging on about evil this good that.
It's also a waste of time because the situation has already evolved to a point that is not reversible, so discussing 'what coulda been' or 'mighta been' is late now.

It is obviously reversible. Europe could still reject US. Reverse the sanctions. Reject EU membership to rebellious state of Ukraine. Compensate Russia for the damages and get the hell out of Russian territory. US could also still do the same to be fair. Or both Europe and US could do it together as well.

Who is in Russian territory? I don't follow the news much, just look at the main headlines, so I might have missed this. Did anyone invade Russia lately?
Nobody goes back on those kinds of measures if they ever had enough political sense to adopt them. You don't just go heavy on sanctions and then reverse them and say whoops, I didn't mean that. Russia doesn't have much leverage in this situation, because Western states have already decided they cannot continue to fund Russia no matter what consequences this will have.
I think some countries didn't want to be faced with the consequences of cutting off Russia from Western funds so fast, they wanted more time for an orderly transition.
But at this point it's all a question of path dependence, once they engaged on this path, there's no going back.

There are about 40+ million rebels currently occupying the Russian lands and calling themselves Ukrainians. Millions more are also occupying some other parts of Russian territories also. One of them happen to be an ESOC member also unfortunately. If you can take one step forward, you can also take one stop backward. Just because you made a mistake doesn't mean you have to continue doing so. Did you not see how fast US changes alliances. In 1980,90 they funded Iraq to gas Iran and then just 20 years later accused them of weapons of mass destruction. Or how arbitrarily they were like, okay we are done with Afghanistan and just packed up and left. Sure they can do a 180 now also. Germany and Romania and others can definitely say :
"We made a mistake by blindly trusting US but now we see through the lies, deception, hypocrisy and manipulation. We hastily made some decisions which has damaged relations with our long standing partners, but those decisions make no sense now. Although it will take many years to regain the trust and repair the damage, we can start by taking a step towards the normal relations. As of now we are suspending all sanctions and restrictions against the Russian Federation. We are prepared to offer compensatory damage. Any further support in any form including but not limited to, arms, funds, intelligence to Ukrainian rebels will be stopped immediately. We would like to apologize to Russian President Vladimir Putin and the people of Russia for all the trouble caused. We hope to blah blah blah blah...:

See? Easy. Even made a preliminary speech. Now go shoo, give it your ministers.

[fightinfrenchman]

Did you not see how fast US changes alliances. In 1980,90 they funded Iraq to gas Iran and then just 20 years later accused them of weapons of mass destruction.

Changing over the course of 2 decades isn't fast

[princeofcarthage]

Did you not see how fast US changes alliances. In 1980,90 they funded Iraq to gas Iran and then just 20 years later accused them of weapons of mass destruction.

Changing over the course of 2 decades isn't fast

It was more like 13 years and yeah that's pretty fast. Specially considering US had no reason. The decision was made soon after Iraq invaded Kuwait. They only waited for right cover.

[princeofcarthage]

Storytelling is powerful, that much is not new. I think all of the geopolitical players do this nowadays. Your point?

Also as far as storytelling goes that's ok, whatever, every country has it's own pov. But direct interferences in power structure of a country? Regime changes if you don't like the leader? That is an act of war. People think about Iraqi war and Afghani war and are like, it's so costly. The thing is if you calculate the gains for US, in all likelihood at least Iraqi war has paid for itself or if any amount US has had to pay other than lives, it is so trivial that x tends to 0. Of course money went to elites not to common people.

[Dolan]

Show hidden quotes

@Dolan lmao. I never said Russia good USA bad in black and white terms. Only said that USA is to blame for the current situation and not Russia.

But who cares who's to blame. If the situation will evolve according to a logic of power relations, which is something you claimed you subscribe to too, then it's pointless to keep banging on about evil this good that.
It's also a waste of time because the situation has already evolved to a point that is not reversible, so discussing 'what coulda been' or 'mighta been' is late now.

It is obviously reversible. Europe could still reject US. Reverse the sanctions. Reject EU membership to rebellious state of Ukraine. Compensate Russia for the damages and get the hell out of Russian territory. US could also still do the same to be fair. Or both Europe and US could do it together as well.

Who is in Russian territory? I don't follow the news much, just look at the main headlines, so I might have missed this. Did anyone invade Russia lately?
Nobody goes back on those kinds of measures if they ever had enough political sense to adopt them. You don't just go heavy on sanctions and then reverse them and say whoops, I didn't mean that. Russia doesn't have much leverage in this situation, because Western states have already decided they cannot continue to fund Russia no matter what consequences this will have.
I think some countries didn't want to be faced with the consequences of cutting off Russia from Western funds so fast, they wanted more time for an orderly transition.
But at this point it's all a question of path dependence, once they engaged on this path, there's no going back.

There are about 40+ million rebels currently occupying the Russian lands and calling themselves Ukrainians. Millions more are also occupying some other parts of Russian territories also. One of them happen to be an ESOC member also unfortunately. If you can take one step forward, you can also take one stop backward. Just because you made a mistake doesn't mean you have to continue doing so. Did you not see how fast US changes alliances. In 1980,90 they funded Iraq to gas Iran and then just 20 years later accused them of weapons of mass destruction. Or how arbitrarily they were like, okay we are done with Afghanistan and just packed up and left. Sure they can do a 180 now also. Germany and Romania and others can definitely say :
"We made a mistake by blindly trusting US but now we see through the lies, deception, hypocrisy and manipulation. We hastily made some decisions which has damaged relations with our long standing partners, but those decisions make no sense now. Although it will take many years to regain the trust and repair the damage, we can start by taking a step towards the normal relations. As of now we are suspending all sanctions and restrictions against the Russian Federation. We are prepared to offer compensatory damage. Any further support in any form including but not limited to, arms, funds, intelligence to Ukrainian rebels will be stopped immediately. We would like to apologize to Russian President Vladimir Putin and the people of Russia for all the trouble caused. We hope to blah blah blah blah...:

See? Easy. Even made a preliminary speech. Now go shoo, give it your ministers.

You have an obsession with the USA. Our position here in Eastern Europe towards Russia has nothing to do with the USA. You don't understand why we have this attitude here. Better not give us any advice because you don't live here so you're clueless. If tomorrow the USA disappeared we'd still have the same position and attitude. That's probably incomprehensible to you and that's ok.

I don't care about the rest of the post with the usual "what about the USA" stuff that doesn't concern me because I'm not paid to do PR for NATO or anything here. You can send them an email with your opinions or something.

[duckzilla]

You don't understand

tldr

[princeofcarthage]

Show hidden quotes

@Dolan lmao. I never said Russia good USA bad in black and white terms. Only said that USA is to blame for the current situation and not Russia.

But who cares who's to blame. If the situation will evolve according to a logic of power relations, which is something you claimed you subscribe to too, then it's pointless to keep banging on about evil this good that.
It's also a waste of time because the situation has already evolved to a point that is not reversible, so discussing 'what coulda been' or 'mighta been' is late now.

It is obviously reversible. Europe could still reject US. Reverse the sanctions. Reject EU membership to rebellious state of Ukraine. Compensate Russia for the damages and get the hell out of Russian territory. US could also still do the same to be fair. Or both Europe and US could do it together as well.

Who is in Russian territory? I don't follow the news much, just look at the main headlines, so I might have missed this. Did anyone invade Russia lately?
Nobody goes back on those kinds of measures if they ever had enough political sense to adopt them. You don't just go heavy on sanctions and then reverse them and say whoops, I didn't mean that. Russia doesn't have much leverage in this situation, because Western states have already decided they cannot continue to fund Russia no matter what consequences this will have.
I think some countries didn't want to be faced with the consequences of cutting off Russia from Western funds so fast, they wanted more time for an orderly transition.
But at this point it's all a question of path dependence, once they engaged on this path, there's no going back.

There are about 40+ million rebels currently occupying the Russian lands and calling themselves Ukrainians. Millions more are also occupying some other parts of Russian territories also. One of them happen to be an ESOC member also unfortunately. If you can take one step forward, you can also take one stop backward. Just because you made a mistake doesn't mean you have to continue doing so. Did you not see how fast US changes alliances. In 1980,90 they funded Iraq to gas Iran and then just 20 years later accused them of weapons of mass destruction. Or how arbitrarily they were like, okay we are done with Afghanistan and just packed up and left. Sure they can do a 180 now also. Germany and Romania and others can definitely say :
"We made a mistake by blindly trusting US but now we see through the lies, deception, hypocrisy and manipulation. We hastily made some decisions which has damaged relations with our long standing partners, but those decisions make no sense now. Although it will take many years to regain the trust and repair the damage, we can start by taking a step towards the normal relations. As of now we are suspending all sanctions and restrictions against the Russian Federation. We are prepared to offer compensatory damage. Any further support in any form including but not limited to, arms, funds, intelligence to Ukrainian rebels will be stopped immediately. We would like to apologize to Russian President Vladimir Putin and the people of Russia for all the trouble caused. We hope to blah blah blah blah...:

See? Easy. Even made a preliminary speech. Now go shoo, give it your ministers.

You have an obsession with the USA. Our position here in Eastern Europe towards Russia has nothing to do with the USA. You don't understand why we have this attitude here. Better not give us any advice because you don't live here so you're clueless. If tomorrow the USA disappeared we'd still have the same position and attitude. That's probably incomprehensible to you and that's ok.

I don't care about the rest of the post with the usual "what about the USA" stuff that doesn't concern me because I'm not paid to do PR for NATO or anything here. You can send them an email with your opinions or something.

I don't have obsession with US. And by US I mostly refer to western world. US just comes because it is US led order and rest of the countries are just puppet states. Your position in Eastern Europe has everything to do with USA. US continuously interferes in the politics of those nations by attempting coups for ex. You are brainwashed by the revisionist US history and lured by the greed of money which US throws. At the end you are nothing but a US puppet and when US is done with you they will throw you away like Saddam. You are just a pawn against Russia. If Russia ever fails and there is no enemy, then you are just as useless. Without US most of Eastern Europe wouldn't even think of aligning with western Europe instead of Russia. And guess what... US will never allow Russia to fail. Russian threat is there entry into Europe. As long the threat remains, American leverage and influence in European politics remain.

[Dolan]

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@Dolan lmao. I never said Russia good USA bad in black and white terms. Only said that USA is to blame for the current situation and not Russia.

But who cares who's to blame. If the situation will evolve according to a logic of power relations, which is something you claimed you subscribe to too, then it's pointless to keep banging on about evil this good that.
It's also a waste of time because the situation has already evolved to a point that is not reversible, so discussing 'what coulda been' or 'mighta been' is late now.

It is obviously reversible. Europe could still reject US. Reverse the sanctions. Reject EU membership to rebellious state of Ukraine. Compensate Russia for the damages and get the hell out of Russian territory. US could also still do the same to be fair. Or both Europe and US could do it together as well.

Who is in Russian territory? I don't follow the news much, just look at the main headlines, so I might have missed this. Did anyone invade Russia lately?
Nobody goes back on those kinds of measures if they ever had enough political sense to adopt them. You don't just go heavy on sanctions and then reverse them and say whoops, I didn't mean that. Russia doesn't have much leverage in this situation, because Western states have already decided they cannot continue to fund Russia no matter what consequences this will have.
I think some countries didn't want to be faced with the consequences of cutting off Russia from Western funds so fast, they wanted more time for an orderly transition.
But at this point it's all a question of path dependence, once they engaged on this path, there's no going back.

There are about 40+ million rebels currently occupying the Russian lands and calling themselves Ukrainians. Millions more are also occupying some other parts of Russian territories also. One of them happen to be an ESOC member also unfortunately. If you can take one step forward, you can also take one stop backward. Just because you made a mistake doesn't mean you have to continue doing so. Did you not see how fast US changes alliances. In 1980,90 they funded Iraq to gas Iran and then just 20 years later accused them of weapons of mass destruction. Or how arbitrarily they were like, okay we are done with Afghanistan and just packed up and left. Sure they can do a 180 now also. Germany and Romania and others can definitely say :
"We made a mistake by blindly trusting US but now we see through the lies, deception, hypocrisy and manipulation. We hastily made some decisions which has damaged relations with our long standing partners, but those decisions make no sense now. Although it will take many years to regain the trust and repair the damage, we can start by taking a step towards the normal relations. As of now we are suspending all sanctions and restrictions against the Russian Federation. We are prepared to offer compensatory damage. Any further support in any form including but not limited to, arms, funds, intelligence to Ukrainian rebels will be stopped immediately. We would like to apologize to Russian President Vladimir Putin and the people of Russia for all the trouble caused. We hope to blah blah blah blah...:

See? Easy. Even made a preliminary speech. Now go shoo, give it your ministers.

You have an obsession with the USA. Our position here in Eastern Europe towards Russia has nothing to do with the USA. You don't understand why we have this attitude here. Better not give us any advice because you don't live here so you're clueless. If tomorrow the USA disappeared we'd still have the same position and attitude. That's probably incomprehensible to you and that's ok.

I don't care about the rest of the post with the usual "what about the USA" stuff that doesn't concern me because I'm not paid to do PR for NATO or anything here. You can send them an email with your opinions or something.

I don't have obsession with US. And by US I mostly refer to western world. US just comes because it is US led order and rest of the countries are just puppet states. Your position in Eastern Europe has everything to do with USA. US continuously interferes in the politics of those nations by attempting coups for ex. You are brainwashed by the revisionist US history and lured by the greed of money which US throws. At the end you are nothing but a US puppet and when US is done with you they will throw you away like Saddam. You are just a pawn against Russia. If Russia ever fails and there is no enemy, then you are just as useless. Without US most of Eastern Europe wouldn't even think of aligning with western Europe instead of Russia. And guess what... US will never allow Russia to fail. Russian threat is there entry into Europe. As long the threat remains, American leverage and influence in European politics remain.

Feelsgoodman to be funded by the USA. I just sit around doing jackshit all day and the US checks keep coming.
That's why Russia sucks because they can't do that
I guess they're not a real superpower haha