European politics

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Latvia harcha
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Re: European politics

Post by harcha »

princeofcarthage wrote: ↑
28 Jun 2022, 12:12
harcha wrote: ↑
28 Jun 2022, 11:11
Could you please expand on how Ukrainian nukes could be targeted at USA but not targeted at Russia?
Because they have a minimum range of 5000 kms, hence they could target only far east Russia which is kind of irrelevant. What is hard to understand in this?
I suppose the RSD-10 Pioneer were out of service by the 1990s, so this is correct for ICBMs, but they still had the capability to deliver nuclear bombs with Tu-95.
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: European politics

Post by princeofcarthage »

Dolan wrote: ↑
28 Jun 2022, 12:17
Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons for variety of reasons. They would have faced nonrecognition and sanctions from west. They did not have an active nuclear weapons program and would have made it very hard to 1) Get operational control of the weapons 2) Maintain the infrastructure and restock in future. The ICBMS placed in Ukraine were mainly targeted at US with minimum range of 5000 kms, even if they were operational they couldn't target the main industrial base of western Russia thus making them not much of a deterrent.
No, they gave them up to get recognition of their borders from Russia. They had just managed to free themselves from under the USSR's grip and they wanted security guarantees to make sure they can actually function as an independent state.

As usual https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_a ... %20States. you are talking out of your ass
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Re: European politics

Post by princeofcarthage »

harcha wrote: ↑
28 Jun 2022, 12:31
princeofcarthage wrote: ↑
28 Jun 2022, 12:12
harcha wrote: ↑
28 Jun 2022, 11:11
Could you please expand on how Ukrainian nukes could be targeted at USA but not targeted at Russia?
Because they have a minimum range of 5000 kms, hence they could target only far east Russia which is kind of irrelevant. What is hard to understand in this?
I suppose the RSD-10 Pioneer were out of service by the 1990s, so this is correct for ICBMs, but they still had the capability to deliver nuclear bombs with Tu-95.
They were apparently disabled by Russia before retreating. It would have been year if not year(s) before Ukraine could have got full operational control and such a scenario would have again be a potential threat to Russia thus initiating an immediate Russian retaliation. Not to mention maintaining nuclear weapons would have resulted in western isolation.
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Re: European politics

Post by Dolan »

princeofcarthage wrote: ↑
28 Jun 2022, 12:49
Dolan wrote: ↑
28 Jun 2022, 12:17
Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons for variety of reasons. They would have faced nonrecognition and sanctions from west. They did not have an active nuclear weapons program and would have made it very hard to 1) Get operational control of the weapons 2) Maintain the infrastructure and restock in future. The ICBMS placed in Ukraine were mainly targeted at US with minimum range of 5000 kms, even if they were operational they couldn't target the main industrial base of western Russia thus making them not much of a deterrent.
No, they gave them up to get recognition of their borders from Russia. They had just managed to free themselves from under the USSR's grip and they wanted security guarantees to make sure they can actually function as an independent state.

As usual https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_a ... %20States. you are talking out of your ass
So where are the facts which show that? Are you just quoting something written on Wiki as a fact, when it's actually what some goobers said in an article quoted there. That's all, nothing more.
The only reference that supports that statement is some article from World Affairs. Meaning somebody speculated that this would have happened. And that somebody has just been proven wrong by history, in the last few months.
I could equally speculate that Ukraine could have just kept the nukes. because there have been lots of countries that developed nukes without asking for any permission. Such as Israel, India, Pakistan, China.
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Latvia harcha
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Re: European politics

Post by harcha »

princeofcarthage wrote: ↑
28 Jun 2022, 12:51
harcha wrote: ↑
28 Jun 2022, 12:31
Show hidden quotes
I suppose the RSD-10 Pioneer were out of service by the 1990s, so this is correct for ICBMs, but they still had the capability to deliver nuclear bombs with Tu-95.
They were apparently disabled by Russia before retreating. It would have been year if not year(s) before Ukraine could have got full operational control and such a scenario would have again be a potential threat to Russia thus initiating an immediate Russian retaliation. Not to mention maintaining nuclear weapons would have resulted in western isolation.
Completely scrapping aircraft is a pretty involved process and it's likely that that is not what happened. More likely some opportunists in the military looted some aircraft and stole some high value/weight components like avionics as they were moving back to Russia. The amount of disorganization and opportunism at this time and part of the world was at an all-time high.

That being said it's very probable that Ukraine could have pieced together plenty of serviceable Bears to deliver those warheads if the necessity arose.
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: European politics

Post by princeofcarthage »

harcha wrote: ↑
28 Jun 2022, 13:34
princeofcarthage wrote: ↑
28 Jun 2022, 12:51
Show hidden quotes
They were apparently disabled by Russia before retreating. It would have been year if not year(s) before Ukraine could have got full operational control and such a scenario would have again be a potential threat to Russia thus initiating an immediate Russian retaliation. Not to mention maintaining nuclear weapons would have resulted in western isolation.
Completely scrapping aircraft is a pretty involved process and it's likely that that is not what happened. More likely some opportunists in the military looted some aircraft and stole some high value/weight components like avionics as they were moving back to Russia. The amount of disorganization and opportunism at this time and part of the world was at an all-time high.

That being said it's very probable that Ukraine could have pieced together plenty of serviceable Bears to deliver those warheads if the necessity arose.
I am not talking only about the bombers but about the missiles as well. But yeah could have been possible. Guess we will never know.
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European Union KoenigRother
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Re: European politics

Post by KoenigRother »

I cannot believe what I am reading here, princeofcarthage. It frightens me, if your opinion and the way your opinion is formed is that of the majority of the indian population.
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Re: European politics

Post by princeofcarthage »

If you would step out of your cocoon of western world you would realize it is popular opinion in majority of countries. World is done with western hypocrisy.

Let's talk about specifically India.
1947 : British left the land divided in some 4-5 divided nations. India, Pakistan, Kashmir, Hyderabad, Portugese poccessions.

Kashmir independently signed a treaty of merger with India. Pakistan attacks India. We get no western support, Russia supports us. US steps in and fear of another great brings the situation to a status quo thus India losing a large part of Kashmir. No western nation came in support of India.

Britain left without clearing boundary issues with British China which results in subsequent conflict with China.

1962 : China attacks India. No western support.

1971 : Pakistan is massacring civilians, mass rapes in Eastern Pakistan/Bangladesh. Bangladesh calls for help. No western country comes to help of Bangladesh. One of the largest humanitarian crisis is underway and the western world is silent. Bangladesh calls India for help. India prepares for war. Pakistan declares war on India. Read again: Pakistan declares war on India. US threatens India and sends warships to blockade Indian ports. Who supports us? Russia. War was declared on us, we were helping solve a humanitarian crisis, and US threatens us.

1962-ongoing. CIA was aware of India's nuclear ambitions since 1962. Over the years some 10 of India's top nuclear scientists and pro nuclear politicians died of unnatural causes. Although no direct link ever established and even if it was what India could do, though there is considerable circumstantial evidence that US/CIA was involved in assassinations.

1998 - Western world sanctions India after nuclear tests. Russia supports us. Ukraine also voted against us in UN.

2022 - India is accused of funding Russia's war by buying Russian oil. India hardly bought oil worth some millions while Europe continues to buy gas and oil worth billions of dollars. But somehow we are funding the war.
Not to mention that the said western world has sanctioned other sources of oil for India.

These are just highlights, list goes on and on. Tell me why the fuck would anyone in India even think of supporting western world. You should be happy we are neutral in the conflict.

These western hypocrisies, bullying and imperialism is now well known to the world.

Our EAM made few statements some weeks back which echoed around the world.

"Europe should get out of the mindset that European problems are world's problems and that world's problems are not European problems"

"If I were to take Europe collectively which has been singularly silent on many things which were happening, for example in Asia, you could ask why would anybody in Asia trust Europe on anything at all"

Even countries like Japan and South Korea are in alliance of convenience with western world. Ask an average Japanese citizen, they absolutely do not care about west.
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Re: European politics

Post by duckzilla »

> be me
> hate daddy and want him to leave
> daddy leaves hastily in 1947
> big fight ensues with evil twin, many dead
> evil commie neighbor invades Tibet afterwards and now I'm stuck with border issues
> hatedaddy.jpg
> evil commie attacks and daddy doesn't help
> evil twin slaps me, only step daddy Soviet Union Russia is on my side
> my nuclear scientists die
> must be daddy's child from earlier marriage
> hatedaddy'schildren.gif
> me and my evil twin Pakistan conduct nuclear tests
> everyone hates us and UN resolution is even signed by evil Ukraine
> only step daddy Russia still loves me
Whatever is written above: this is no financial advice.

Beati pauperes spiritu.
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China fei123456
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Re: European politics

Post by fei123456 »

princeofcarthage wrote: ↑
29 Jun 2022, 10:25
If you would step out of your cocoon of western world you would realize it is popular opinion in majority of countries. World is done with western hypocrisy.
Don't count us in your "majority".
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Re: European politics

Post by princeofcarthage »

fei123456 wrote: ↑
29 Jun 2022, 11:26
princeofcarthage wrote: ↑
29 Jun 2022, 10:25
If you would step out of your cocoon of western world you would realize it is popular opinion in majority of countries. World is done with western hypocrisy.
Don't count us in your "majority".
Chinese people may or may not hate CPC, but they are definitely not Pro-western and overwhelming Chinese people do support Russia. Also it is fairly easy to see why China would stand with Russia. It faces a similar threat from the western world. You are just an exception.
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Re: European politics

Post by princeofcarthage »

duckzilla wrote: ↑
29 Jun 2022, 11:25
> be me
> hate daddy and want him to leave
> daddy leaves hastily in 1947
> big fight ensues with evil twin, many dead
> evil commie neighbor invades Tibet afterwards and now I'm stuck with border issues
> hatedaddy.jpg
> evil commie attacks and daddy doesn't help
> evil twin slaps me, only step daddy Soviet Union Russia is on my side
> my nuclear scientists die
> must be daddy's child from earlier marriage
> hatedaddy'schildren.gif
> me and my evil twin Pakistan conduct nuclear tests
> everyone hates us and UN resolution is even signed by evil Ukraine
> only step daddy Russia still loves me
Yeah just like I said, you don't view problems in other part of the world as problems just some stuff we make up and you turn an blind eye as long as it benefits you. It suddenly becomes an issue when you are suffer from it. Your post is a classic example of how you have zero clue of outside world. Not implying that you have any clue of western world either.
Fine line to something great is a strange change.
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Nauru Dolan
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Re: European politics

Post by Dolan »

@princeofcarthage

You want to know what hypocrisy looks like? Let me show you what it looks like.

Image

What we see here ^ is the total amount of foreign direct investment made in India in the 2000-2007 period.
Mauritius is at the top of the ranking because that's where Western corporations incorporated themselves to pay fewer taxes, since India has a special bilateral agreement with that island.
So behind that header are hidden a lot more American and European companies that invested in India and created jobs there.
Without that capital invested in your country, what other capital could have created those jobs in your cities?

Since the 1980s, Western capital has created millions of jobs in India, lifting a huge number of Indians from poverty:

Image

The outsourcing industry in India was worth $150 billion in 2017, according to an Indian economic journal (https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/te ... 662038.cms).

And you're using English and tech devices designed in the West and manufactured by West-allied countries like South Korea and Taiwan. You're using a computer right now with a chip produced in Taiwan, a Western ally.
Doesn't that stink to you? You're relying on Western stuff every day just to function as a modern city dweller.

By comparison, how many jobs did Russia create in India? How many devices or tech made in Russia are you personally using?

I'm not saying all this as if the West did you a favour by investing in India, obviously they found an opportunity there and they also made money there.
But the direct impact of them investing in your country has been that you've started having more and more access to Western tech and services.
That the USA created the legal conditions for your citizens to migrate and work in Silicon Valley, which also created a cross-pollination effect between the USA and India: some of those who went to the USA also came back and invested back in India, looking to recruit more Indians, etc.

You might not realise how much of your current lifestyle is based on Western investment in your country, which changed how you work, how you make money, how you have fun. Like why are you even posting on a forum that was based around a game made in a Western country? I thought everything from the West stinks and should be avoided.
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Re: European politics

Post by fei123456 »

princeofcarthage wrote: ↑
29 Jun 2022, 11:46
fei123456 wrote: ↑
29 Jun 2022, 11:26
princeofcarthage wrote: ↑
29 Jun 2022, 10:25
If you would step out of your cocoon of western world you would realize it is popular opinion in majority of countries. World is done with western hypocrisy.
Don't count us in your "majority".
Chinese people may or may not hate CPC, but they are definitely not Pro-western and overwhelming Chinese people do support Russia. Also it is fairly easy to see why China would stand with Russia. It faces a similar threat from the western world. You are just an exception.
Russia is also a "WESTERN" invader to China. The worst one.
Russia grabbed lands that are as 3-4 Ukraines from China. Russia is the only country to threaten China with nuclear bombs (even USA didn't). Poland, Czech, Hungary ... were not part of "western world", but Russia invaded all of them, forcing them to join the western side. And you're teaching us to love such a Fascism nation?
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Re: European politics

Post by duckzilla »

You can say what you want, but even in imperialist matters the British had a legal system. The enforced treaties were bad but the leasing of Hong Kong was still much better than the simple Russian conquest of Vladivostok. Hong Kong was even given back according to the time frame of the original treaty. Russia would never even think about giving an inch of its territory back. The major part of the Russian society doesn't even seem to think that conquests and wars are a bad thing in general. And of course, Russia doesn't even have a proper legal system for its own citizens. There's no law and peace in Russia.
Whatever is written above: this is no financial advice.

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Re: European politics

Post by fei123456 »

British occupied India and HK, but the majority in India are still Indian, and HK is still Chinese. Well, can you find any native in the Far East now? Russia is even celebrating the conquer of Vladivostok every year. What a nice alliance!

Russian expansion is always together with massacre and forced immigration. They kill all the native people and replace with Russian, to make sure they'll never lose them. They even do the same thing to their "alliance", Ukraine, Georgia, Kazakhstan... every of them has some "Russian regions", ready to rebel as "people's republic of..." and join Russia at any time. Ghandi is lucky that he struggled against British instead of Russian.
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Re: European politics

Post by princeofcarthage »

duckzilla wrote: ↑
29 Jun 2022, 12:54
You can say what you want, but even in imperialist matters the British had a legal system. The enforced treaties were bad but the leasing of Hong Kong was still much better than the simple Russian conquest of Vladivostok. Hong Kong was even given back according to the time frame of the original treaty. Russia would never even think about giving an inch of its territory back. The major part of the Russian society doesn't even seem to think that conquests and wars are a bad thing in general. And of course, Russia doesn't even have a proper legal system for its own citizens. There's no law and peace in Russia.
Lol. British contemplated not giving HK back to China. Like the treaty was signed with Empire which doesn't exist now and stuff. They tried to garner as much American support they could. But this time they failed. America wasn't going to militarily support UK in war against China and UK wasn't strong enough to maintain control through military means. Thus, they had no option but to give HK back. They even tried to extract favorable treaties which would have maintained some British administrative control but ultimately failed I think.
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Re: European politics

Post by princeofcarthage »

fei123456 wrote: ↑
29 Jun 2022, 13:21
British occupied India and HK, but the majority in India are still Indian, and HK is still Chinese. Well, can you find any native in the Far East now? Russia is even celebrating the conquer of Vladivostok every year. What a nice alliance!

Russian expansion is always together with massacre and forced immigration. They kill all the native people and replace with Russian, to make sure they'll never lose them. They even do the same thing to their "alliance", Ukraine, Georgia, Kazakhstan... every of them has some "Russian regions", ready to rebel as "people's republic of..." and join Russia at any time. Ghandi is lucky that he struggled against British instead of Russian.
How do you think most countries today came into existence? Even China wasn't as homogeneous as it is today. China had multiple cultures, religions and languages. China is what it is today through expansion, massacres, and immigration. Do you know what happened in in China, 1989? Or lets not forget about North America, do you genuinely think most Americans are Native Americans?
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Re: European politics

Post by Dolan »

princeofcarthage wrote: ↑
29 Jun 2022, 16:38
fei123456 wrote: ↑
29 Jun 2022, 13:21
British occupied India and HK, but the majority in India are still Indian, and HK is still Chinese. Well, can you find any native in the Far East now? Russia is even celebrating the conquer of Vladivostok every year. What a nice alliance!

Russian expansion is always together with massacre and forced immigration. They kill all the native people and replace with Russian, to make sure they'll never lose them. They even do the same thing to their "alliance", Ukraine, Georgia, Kazakhstan... every of them has some "Russian regions", ready to rebel as "people's republic of..." and join Russia at any time. Ghandi is lucky that he struggled against British instead of Russian.
How do you think most countries today came into existence? Even China wasn't as homogeneous as it is today. China had multiple cultures, religions and languages. China is what it is today through expansion, massacres, and immigration. Do you know what happened in in China, 1989? Or lets not forget about North America, do you genuinely think most Americans are Native Americans?
And this kind of forced multiethnic empires eventually disintegrates, as it's unable to keep social cohesion between multiple cultures that sometimes are in open conflict.
The CCP correctly identified Uyghurs' Muslim faith as a danger to the Han Chinese society and started a process of forced integration by which they're trying to turn them into Han Chinese.
They know very well what radical multiculturalism leads to eventually. Conflicts between Sunnis and Shi'a (like in the Middle East), between Hindus and Muslims (like in India), between Muslims and secular institutions (like in the UK), between Buddhists and Muslims (like in Myanmar and Sri Lanka) and between Christians and Muslims (like in the Central African Republic).
The CCP would have none of that. Better just turn everyone into Han Chinese and call it a day.
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Re: European politics

Post by princeofcarthage »

Dolan wrote: ↑
29 Jun 2022, 17:05
princeofcarthage wrote: ↑
29 Jun 2022, 16:38
fei123456 wrote: ↑
29 Jun 2022, 13:21
British occupied India and HK, but the majority in India are still Indian, and HK is still Chinese. Well, can you find any native in the Far East now? Russia is even celebrating the conquer of Vladivostok every year. What a nice alliance!

Russian expansion is always together with massacre and forced immigration. They kill all the native people and replace with Russian, to make sure they'll never lose them. They even do the same thing to their "alliance", Ukraine, Georgia, Kazakhstan... every of them has some "Russian regions", ready to rebel as "people's republic of..." and join Russia at any time. Ghandi is lucky that he struggled against British instead of Russian.
How do you think most countries today came into existence? Even China wasn't as homogeneous as it is today. China had multiple cultures, religions and languages. China is what it is today through expansion, massacres, and immigration. Do you know what happened in in China, 1989? Or lets not forget about North America, do you genuinely think most Americans are Native Americans?
And this kind of forced multiethnic empires eventually disintegrates, as it's unable to keep social cohesion between multiple cultures that sometimes are in open conflict.
The CCP correctly identified Uyghurs' Muslim faith as a danger to the Han Chinese society and started a process of forced integration by which they're trying to turn them into Han Chinese.
They know very well what radical multiculturalism leads to eventually. Conflicts between Sunnis and Shi'a (like in the Middle East), between Hindus and Muslims (like in India), between Muslims and secular institutions (like in the UK), between Buddhists and Muslims (like in Myanmar and Sri Lanka) and between Christians and Muslims (like in the Central African Republic).
The CCP would have none of that. Better just turn everyone into Han Chinese and call it a day.
But the point is that distinct cultures develop every few hundred kilometers. China is fairly homogeneous due to policies of the state which act as a glue. Even most small nations are rarely homogeneous. Japan, and south Korea being exceptions. Even in a small island like UK and Ireland you have at least 4 distinct cultures. Scotland is on the verge of breaking up with UK for ex. The cycle of unification and disintegration is a continuous process which will continue until some X happens. Lets not discuss that X.
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Re: European politics

Post by harcha »

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... raine-war/
now we are getting to the bottom of this :hmm:


also this seemed reminiscent of a certain someone
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: European politics

Post by Dolan »

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Re: European politics

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Re: European politics

Post by princeofcarthage »

Like I said, China knows something which 1) Western world also knows but chose to hide 2) Ignore it 3) Incompetent enough to not about it.

No country would self wreck their economy, lockdown millions of citizens, stagnate growth over a virus with less than 1% effective mortality rate and which can be further reduced with medical care. Maybe long term effects, maybe side effects something seriously is wrong with the virus which world at large doesn't know. Quite likely they would tell their friendly nations and Putin reacts in similar way.
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Re: European politics

Post by fightinfrenchman »

princeofcarthage wrote: ↑
01 Jul 2022, 18:53
Like I said, China knows something which 1) Western world also knows but chose to hide 2) Ignore it 3) Incompetent enough to not about it.
Awful sentence
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