European politics

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Vietnam duckzilla
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Re: European politics

Post by duckzilla »

Dolan wrote:
duckzilla wrote:
Dolan wrote:Sounds like you're implying that such murders are not preventable, so the law should only deal with their effects. In other words, we need to resign ourselves to the fact that Muslims will behead those who present cartoons with Mohammed in any context and let the law deal with the effects of murder afterwards.
Another assertion, another generalization.

Do we need to resign ourselves to the fact that Germans will try to shoot/gas Jews in any context and let the law deal with the effects of murder afterwards? The recent attack on a synagogue in Halle and the (actual) fact that nearly all synagogues in Germany are protected 24/7 by the police both seem to suggest that.
Is that part of a phenomenon in Germany? Do you have a parallel society of Germans living according to values and beliefs which are anti-Semitic? That's the case with certain Muslims (not all). And these terror attacks are the tip of an iceberg which reflects a deeper reality that many Muslims in their communities live as if they were in Syria of Iraq. And they put their religious beliefs before anything else, before cohabitation. And if the situation arises they would be willing to kill to avenge any act that depicts their beliefs in a light that they consider blasphemous.
Well... Yes. There are parallel societies in ethnic Germans that are anti-semitic. There is even a small bunch of Neonazi villages where they cluster and live their dream of a pure race.

Apart from these actual parallel societies, there is a large bunch of anti-semitic and racist people coming directly out of the middle of society, e.g. the police.
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Nauru Dolan
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Re: European politics

Post by Dolan »

And did any terror attacks originate in those parallel anti-Semitic societies?
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Re: European politics

Post by voigt1240 »

duckzilla wrote:
Dolan wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Is that part of a phenomenon in Germany? Do you have a parallel society of Germans living according to values and beliefs which are anti-Semitic? That's the case with certain Muslims (not all). And these terror attacks are the tip of an iceberg which reflects a deeper reality that many Muslims in their communities live as if they were in Syria of Iraq. And they put their religious beliefs before anything else, before cohabitation. And if the situation arises they would be willing to kill to avenge any act that depicts their beliefs in a light that they consider blasphemous.
Well... Yes. There are parallel societies in ethnic Germans that are anti-semitic. There is even a small bunch of Neonazi villages where they cluster and live their dream of a pure race.

Apart from these actual parallel societies, there is a large bunch of anti-semitic and racist people coming directly out of the middle of society, e.g. the police.
I remember reading about the Village of Jamel in Germany being a hotspot for neonazism. It is only inhabited by 35 people, but even still though. There are probably others similiar to some degree.
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Re: European politics

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Dolan wrote:And did any terror attacks originate in those parallel anti-Semitic societies?
This question is simply ridiculous. I can only hope that it is due to an honest interest into the matter and not an attempt of a last defense for a long lost argument.

Yes, of course: All of these perpetrators were (obviously among other things) anti-semitic, which is obvious given the frequency of nazi/neonazi backgrounds.

What is your next question going to be? Or are you finally willing to yield that I made a fair point?
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Vietnam duckzilla
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Re: European politics

Post by duckzilla »

voigt1240 wrote:I remember reading about the Village of Jamel in Germany being a hotspot for neonazism. It is only inhabited by 35 people, but even still though. There are probably others similiar to some degree.
Of course there are. But it does not even take as much as moving into an isolated area to become a parallel society. There is plenty of people who form right-wing parallel societies without anyone really noticing. They are simply more difficult to spot than people going to a mosque.

The Bundeskriminalamt (Federal Criminal Police Office) started to investigate and publish numbers of persons posing a threat to public safety due to right-wing extremism recently. Numbers started shooting up and the current approximation is 15.000 extremists who are potential threats. That is only the people the police knows about. No one knows about dark figures.
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Nauru Dolan
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Re: European politics

Post by Dolan »

duckzilla wrote:
Dolan wrote:And did any terror attacks originate in those parallel anti-Semitic societies?
This question is simply ridiculous. I can only hope that it is due to an honest interest into the matter and not an attempt of a last defense for a long lost argument.

Yes, of course: All of these perpetrators were (obviously among other things) anti-semitic, which is obvious given the frequency of nazi/neonazi backgrounds.

What is your next question going to be? Or are you finally willing to yield that I made a fair point?
Are we even talking about the same things?
You're posting examples of terror attacks committed by Nazis from organised underground groups. Those are like the IRA in Ireland, even smaller groups. Those aren't communities built around a religion, like Muslim ones.

I've asked you about any examples of such parallel societies in German society, that mirror the way of life of some Muslim communities, and you fairly posted that rural commune in Germany (Artaman League) which was built around some common goals. That would qualify, indeed, as a parallel community built around common beliefs. But they were not some underground, terror cell, or paramilitary kommando group, like the other examples you posted, and which committed acts of terror. They weren't some group specialised in violence or political sabotage.

I don't have a problem conceding a point, it's just that I don't think these two are comparable. Those terror groups are underground cells, they're like Hamas in Palestine. They're not a Christian or Sikh or Shintoist parallel society of normal people living according to a moral code that is separate and incompatible with the rules and values prevalent in the general society. Whereas these Muslim people who commit terror attacks sometimes come from such specialised terror cells (linked to ISIS or some others) and sometimes they are just ordinary citizens with no clear links to any specialised terror groups, but who just react very violently against someone else showing some cartoons of their prophet in a school.

I hope you can see this distinction, because obviously, if such attacks were only committed by specialised terror groups, preventing them would be just a question of applying the law. Whereas if they come from ordinary people living in parallel communities (but not underground, specialised ones), then it's a whole different kind of problem that you can't solve by simply applying the law. You need new kinds of laws to identify this sort of risk and tackle it.
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Re: European politics

Post by duckzilla »

Dolan wrote:Are we even talking about the same things?
Since you keep forgetting what you are discussing about, I guess not.
Dolan wrote:You're posting examples of terror attacks committed by Nazis from organised underground groups. Those are like the IRA in Ireland, even smaller groups. Those aren't communities built around a religion, like Muslim ones.
If you look closely, most of the attacks were not by organised underground groups. Just take a look at the two most recent ones, murder of LĂĽbcke and attack on synagogue. Both attacks were done individuals who stem from a certain milieu, but are not connected to organised underground groups as the ones you mention above.
Dolan wrote:I've asked you about any examples of such parallel societies in German society, that mirror the way of life of some Muslim communities, and you fairly posted that rural commune in Germany (Artaman League) which was built around some common goals. That would qualify, indeed, as a parallel community built around common beliefs. But they were not some underground, terror cell, or paramilitary kommando group, like the other examples you posted, and which committed acts of terror. They weren't some group specialised in violence or political sabotage.
See the point above. None of the attacks were done by a group "specialized in violence". Even the NSU was just a bunch of unorganized idiots who happened to be protected by bad (racist) police investigations.
Dolan wrote:I don't have a problem conceding a point, it's just that I don't think these two are comparable. Those terror groups are underground cells, they're like Hamas in Palestine. They're not a Christian or Sikh or Shintoist parallel society of normal people living according to a moral code that is separate and incompatible with the rules and values prevalent in the general society. Whereas these Muslim people who commit terror attacks sometimes come from such specialised terror cells (linked to ISIS or some others) and sometimes they are just ordinary citizens with no clear links to any specialised terror groups, but who just react very violently against someone else showing some cartoons of their prophet in a school.
As I said, not they are not.
Dolan wrote:I hope you can see this distinction, because obviously, if such attacks were only committed by specialised terror groups, preventing them would be just a question of applying the law. Whereas if they come from ordinary people living in parallel communities (but not underground, specialised ones), then it's a whole different kind of problem that you can't solve by simply applying the law. You need new kinds of laws to identify this sort of risk and tackle it.
Most attacks, like burning refugee homes, are not committed by specialized terror groups. This is done by seemingly normal citizens.
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Nauru Dolan
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Re: European politics

Post by Dolan »

And you don't see any difference between nazis committing violence for some ideological reason and Muslims committing violence for religious reasons? For starters, Muslims being those who moved in your country, while nazis being locals. So there's definitely a different dynamic going on.

You can't tell nazis: you guys have to start adapting to the laws of this land. Because they've been there for generations. They don't have a problem with integrating in the local culture. Their problem is of a different nature.
Whereas in the case of Muslims, they arrived in your country and many of them either refused to adopt your rules or failed to do so. That violence that comes from their communities is of a different nature, again. Nazis don't have a problem of adapting to the local culture, they have a problem accepting certain political decisions made by the local establishment. You can fix that by political dialogue.

With Muslims, it's a different kind of situation. Their culture dictates a certain social structure, in which the man is the head of the family and women need to be subservient. That runs counter to your Western equalitarian values. And when you try to forcefeed them on a diet of tolerating minorities and stuff like that, that's when they start nope-ing big time. They know very well where that slippery slope of accepting Western values goes. It goes in the direction of them adopting a family structure which is completely foreign to their religious beliefs.
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Re: European politics

Post by wardyb1 »

The no true scotsman is out in full force today.
“To love the journey is to accept no such end. I have found, through painful experience, that the most important step a person can take is always the next one.”
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Nauru Dolan
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Re: European politics

Post by Dolan »

I think comparing nazi violence to Muslim terror murders is misguided. Just because they're both extreme behaviours, it doesn't mean they have similar causes or that they should be tackled similarly.
This argument stemmed from a sort of whataboutism, anyway. Sort of "yeah but nazis also commit murders, and some of them also come from parallel communities". Yeah, so what. It doesn't mean that if radicals tend to live in their own communities, then the nature of their violence is the same.
With nazis the problem is not that they form cultural enclaves, like with Muslims. They're typically quite proud of being part of the local culture, they don't have a big problem with that, like some Muslims do.
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Re: European politics

Post by gibson »

Imaging a world where the west hadn't been constantly meddling in the middle east and thus radical Islam doesn't gain the same sort of foothold it has now.
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Re: European politics

Post by Dolan »

Agreed. The West should have never poked that den of snakes.
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Re: European politics

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

https://metro.co.uk/2020/10/21/two-musl ... -13455196/

The European race wars have officially begun! Place your bets on the winner before Sunday.
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Re: European politics

Post by voigt1240 »

Beheading of a teacher for showing the prophet. Newspaper publishing more mohammed cartoons and now a racist stabbing under the big tower. Sad news. I only think tensions will increase further from here.
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Re: European politics

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

https://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/ ... _3224.html

Not gonna lie, committing an Islamic act of terror and a beheading while your Islamofascism is already being heavily scrutinized and highlighted is .. not that smart.

Wonder what Macron will do now after his tough talk didn't work. Perhaps we should stop the Saudi funding of Salafism and Wahhabi ideas in European mosques? I don't think our 'founding fathers' had the destruction of democracy in mind when they institutionalized the freedom of religion in the constitutions.
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Re: European politics

Post by voigt1240 »

I have gained a fair amount of respect for Macron for having a backbone on this issue.

It's good there Are Leaders like him Who dare say things as they. even when he is being criticized by nations like Turkey and muslims in France itself.

We should not compromise our freedom of speech no matter how angry some people become over a silly cartoon.
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Nauru Dolan
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Re: European politics

Post by Dolan »

It's awkward that Europe needed to see a medieval beheading in France to realise tolerance and radical multiculturalism don't really go hand in hand.
Religious toleration is a concept that developed in Europe only among Christian denominations (Catholics vs Protestants).
If the cultural difference is too large, tolerance breaks down, as these events show. There's a limit to how much cultural difference a society can really handle peacefully. It usually works among local, neighbouring or related cultures, but it dissolves with cultures that are too distant, if they use their culture to shape their public affairs. Multiculturalism also worked in empires, because everyone was under the boot of a dominion that didn't give local cultures much say in how things were run. They were treated like a potential risk to imperial stability and left alone to manage their own communities according to their rules, as long as they obeyed imperial laws and paid their dues to the imperial power.

Unless you build a colonial society like the American one, where tolerance "works" because there's a higher degree of indifference and social alienation, so someone else's radically different culture is something like their quirky, colourful, "ethnic" trappings, or some weird rituals they perform in a closed environment, about which nobody gives a shit, as long as, in the public realm, they abide by the local laws and the Constitution (that were shaped by British common law and French revolutionary ideas). So tolerance works when those original native cultures get basically erased or dampened to the point that they're just some sort of costumed larping that you perform at ethnic fairs. If those cultures have bigger ambitions, like shaping the local laws or rules according to which a city or state works, eh, mah Constitution and founding fathers and all those references suddenly get summoned to tell you how much multiculturalism actually matters in the USA. It's multiculturalism as long as you don't try to introduce Muslim or Sikh rules of public behaviour in the US constitution or laws. Just keep it in the mosque, ok? And then you'll have a nice "multicultural society", a melting pot with segregated communities, like US cities are.
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Re: European politics

Post by duckzilla »

To be fair, the decapitation is a thing in France in general. Easy to get confused about it.
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Nauru Dolan
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Re: European politics

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Nauru Dolan
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Re: European politics

Post by Dolan »

The thing is that these migrants who go to richer Western countries want the perks of having higher living standards and better social services, but they don't want the local culture, because they already have a stronger culture.

They want both the perks of high living standards built by the local population and to keep their original culture, because it protects family life and values better than the local culture which destroys them.

You can't have your cake and eat it too, eh. :smile: At some point you either erase your original culture and integrate, or entrench yourself deeper in your original culture and get into violent conflict over values with the local culture.
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Nauru Dolan
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Re: European politics

Post by Dolan »

I love it, history is my bitch now.
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Netherlands Mr_Bramboy
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Re: European politics

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

I don't think migrants make the rational choice to weigh the costs and benefits of the countries they flee to. Nor do I think migrants make the rational trade-off between various different cultures and their pros and cons.

It is easy to judge migrants for all their mishaps, but we have to remember that they are human too, which means that we too can make the same mistakes. Look at what happened in March when there was the tiniest of chances of a great inconvenience due to the coronavirus: people started hoarding and fighting. In the end, we're just animals with social customs and rules.

The current 'generation' of terrorists is born in the targeted country. They are not migrants. We need to focus on education and on cutting off the financing of radical Salafist ideas. If the Macron administration takes any radical steps, I hope they work on weakening and/or abolishing the freedom of religion as written in the constitution. The 'actual' freedom of religion can still be secured via the freedom of expression. There are prominent constitutional jurists in The Netherlands who have brought this idea forward in recent times.

It would also prevent the unrelated problem of religious institutions largely ignoring laws surrounding covid-prevention due to their constitutional status. Here we have the problem that mass gatherings can only consist of up to 30 people - unless you're a church. One church in Staphorst housed 600 people, which is unexplainable in these times.
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Nauru Dolan
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Re: European politics

Post by Dolan »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:I don't think migrants make the rational choice to weigh the costs and benefits of the countries they flee to. Nor do I think migrants make the rational trade-off between various different cultures and their pros and cons.
They definitely do. If you're the head of a family, you definitely think about what's going to happen if you move to France from Afghanistan and your daughters will not be allowed to wear the veil at school.
It is easy to judge migrants for all their mishaps, but we have to remember that they are human too, which means that we too can make the same mistakes. Look at what happened in March when there was the tiniest of chances of a great inconvenience due to the coronavirus: people started hoarding and fighting. In the end, we're just animals with social customs and rules.
What kind of argument is this. By the same token, Hitler was a poor, fallible human who made mistakes too, right.
The current 'generation' of terrorists is born in the targeted country. They are not migrants. We need to focus on education and on cutting off the financing of radical Salafist ideas.
The voice of neoliberalism talking through you (or maybe you're half-trolling, as usual). They are good guys, they just need education and then they will see the light. As if education is a panacea that will bring any result you want. This only works with a small subset of people from each culture, those that are already intelligent and culturally flexible. It doesn't work with the general population. They have no drive to change their ways because you want them to.
They are actually still migrants, in the sense that they live in cultural enclaves, as if they're still in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, but with much better living standards. They effectively don't change anything in their lives, except access to better income and infrastructure, but at home they apply the same rules as back in Iraq.
[...] I hope they work on weakening and/or abolishing the freedom of religion as written in the constitution. The 'actual' freedom of religion can still be secured via the freedom of expression. There are prominent constitutional jurists in The Netherlands who have brought this idea forward in recent times.
It would also prevent the unrelated problem of religious institutions largely ignoring laws surrounding covid-prevention due to their constitutional status. Here we have the problem that mass gatherings can only consist of up to 30 people - unless you're a church. One church in Staphorst housed 600 people, which is unexplainable in these times.
As usual, if the crackdown on their communities is harsh, they will adapt and pretend they follow the rules. Strong cultures are very resilient and the Muslim culture is much stronger than the Western culture right now. So, the outcome is already known. The stronger culture will prevail, because the stronger culture doesn't ask nicely if you want to follow its rules or if it should change its rules to accommodate your beliefs, like the Western one.
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Denmark voigt1240
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Re: European politics

Post by voigt1240 »

I think the majority of people share the sentiment that if you are willing to work and contribute, you should be able to receive some welfare like child benefits etc.

However, some people fear welfare tourism, where foreigners come only to live of welfare and not fully intergrate. And they end up isolated in their own communities, which is one of the main problems.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: European politics

Post by Goodspeed »

It's so tiring how these things always take about 3 seconds to become discussions about immigration.

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