European politics

[Horsemen]

The support for one is higher than i thought.

What do they need an army for? To invade the UK?

[Mr_Bramboy]

Should just abolish all armies and invest everything into R&D. Make it clear to any potential invaders that they will be droned to death, that their infrastructure will be shut down, and that their electricity grid will cease to function. Standing armies are a thing of the past.

[voigt1240]

The support for one is higher than i thought.

What do they need an army for? To invade the UK?

I would not be opposed to that. But I think it would have something to do with having a bigger voice on the international stage. And stop the bear to the east from bullying smaller eastern European countries.

[harcha]

Should just abolish all armies and invest everything into R&D. Make it clear to any potential invaders that they will be droned to death, that their infrastructure will be shut down, and that their electricity grid will cease to function. Standing armies are a thing of the past.

thing is invaders could reasonably do the same first

The support for one is higher than i thought.

What do they need an army for? To invade the UK?

I would not be opposed to that. But I think it would have something to do with having a bigger voice on the international stage. And stop the bear to the east from bullying smaller eastern European countries.

yes papa

[duckzilla]

A "unified" army in the current framework would be quite similar to the mess of earlier times. Empress Ursula the Great would need to call an Unionstag where representatives of all tiny duchies countries would need to be convinced to send troops. Half of them would decline and the French Russians would once more take the Alsace Poland.

[Good ol Ivan]

[Jam]

The support for one is higher than i thought.

Geez what's up with the dutch.

[Dolan]

A EU army is inevitable because the USA have signalled they're less interested in protecting European states, unless they get something in return. When American diplomats or Trump say "you need to spend more on defence", what they mean is "you need to buy more weapons from us".

Recently, the USA have threatened to pull troops out of Germany and deploy them in Poland (https://www.dw.com/en/us-threatens-to-w ... a-49959555), to send a message to Germany that they're reassessing their military priorities in Europe. But what do you think is behind this decision? The USA will be moving more troops to Eastern Europe, because those states have been increasing their defence spending by buying more military gear from American companies. NATO has been working as a racket scheme for the American military industrial complex for years. And the reason why the USA has pushed for integrating new states in NATO, in the past, was because their corporations that manufacture military equipment had an interest in getting new clients. This is the key in which you should read the USA's message that European countries need to spend more on their defence.

But then, if you think about it, if we do have to spend more on our defence, why should we send that money to the USA, why not manufacture that equipment here and keep the money and the jobs here? It would be a much smarter approach. That's why France and Germany initiated this joint effort of building a new fighter jet that should be operational by 2040. More recently, Spain added their signature to this common project to develop a common European air force by 2040: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-france-an ... a-49236972

In terms of terrestrial forces, Germany, the Netherlands, Romania and Czechia have taken steps to integrate their land forces since 2017. German/Dutch joint military drills have already taken place as a pilot project towards establishing a common EU military force: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/20/worl ... -army.html (you might need to use a FB or Google account to read this article).



Germany and the Netherlands have been working on integrating their navy forces too: https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2016/ ... utch-navy/

Dutch/German joint military drills have already been a thing for years. In 2017, Romania and Czechia have pledged to work together with German military forces in the same direction of creating a European multinational military division: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_141113.htm

So, this project of pooling military forces in Europe to have a common defence is happening already, but it's a piecemeal construction, that is being built gradually by having two or three EU countries integrate each other's military capabilities and thus working towards that final objective of having a common military force in Europe that will not need American support anymore.

[Horsemen]

The support for one is higher than i thought.

Geez what's up with the dutch.

warmongers

[harcha]

The support for one is higher than i thought.

Geez what's up with the dutch.

It gets boring living in the middle of the 1st world.

[Dolan]

The support for one is higher than i thought.

Surely there is a 0% chance that a standing EU army would work with how the EU is currently structured.

Why would that be an impediment? NATO doesn't have any problem working with multinational forces, so the EU would have even fewer problems doing that, considering geographic proximity and integration in a common union. I'm not even sure the EU would need a new treaty for such a force, because there already are treaty provisions for a Common Security and Defence Policy, under which the so-called PESCO works right now. So, legally they're covered, but they need to actually do all the legwork and provide the funding to make all this happen.

[Mr_Bramboy]

Should just abolish all armies and invest everything into R&D. Make it clear to any potential invaders that they will be droned to death, that their infrastructure will be shut down, and that their electricity grid will cease to function. Standing armies are a thing of the past.

thing is invaders could reasonably do the same first

Not if our R&D is better.

[harcha]

Should just abolish all armies and invest everything into R&D. Make it clear to any potential invaders that they will be droned to death, that their infrastructure will be shut down, and that their electricity grid will cease to function. Standing armies are a thing of the past.

thing is invaders could reasonably do the same first

Not if our R&D is better.

This approach as you describe it is more offensive than defensive so it doesn't provide security, only mutually assured destruction. I don't know how far this gets you.

[oats13]

European man shouting about European empire-

Not good.

[Dolan]

Verhofstadt is way too optimistic about a federal Europe. I don't think turning the EU into a federal country would work, it's a pipe dream. Cultural differences between the extremes of Europe are too large, even though they are smaller than cultural differences in the US (and look at how those differences are undermining the cohesion of that American federation).

But boosting teamwork in the EU can improve things for everyone in some domains (like defence, infrastructure, economy, fighting crime etc).

[Dolan]

Some of the oddities of the EU: French and German citizens elected in public offices in Romania -- and some Romanians elected or appointed in public offices in Germany or France.
You'd think that this couldn't work because people are usually very sensitive about having a leader who is, at least, from their country, if not from the local community. And yet, at least occasionally, this can work.

Dominic Fritz - German citizen elected mayor of Timișoara, the largest city in western Romania


Clotilde Armand - French-born who got her Romanian citizenship a few years ago won the race for mayor in the capital's richest district


Conversely, there are some Romanians who were elected in public offices in some EU countries:
Octavian Ursu - migrated to Germany and became a mayor of Görlitz
Roxana Mărăcineanu - was the French minister of sports in one of Macron's governments

In other news, the results of local elections here are mixed. About half of county councils were won by retrograde leftwing forces and half by reformist center-right forces. The capital was won by an independent candidate, supported by centre-right parties. The new mayor of Bucharest will be a mathematician.

[Amsel_]

Some of the oddities of the EU: French and German citizens elected in public offices in Romania -- and some Romanians elected or appointed in public offices in Germany or France.
You'd think that this couldn't work because people are usually very sensitive about having a leader who is, at least, from their country, if not from the local community. And yet, at least occasionally, this can work.

Dominic Fritz - German citizen elected mayor of Timișoara, the largest city in western Romania


Clotilde Armand - French-born who got her Romanian citizenship a few years ago won the race for mayor in the capital's richest district


Conversely, there are some Romanians who were elected in public offices in some EU countries:
Octavian Ursu - migrated to Germany and became a mayor of Görlitz
Roxana Mărăcineanu - was the French minister of sports in one of Macron's governments

In other news, the results of local elections here are mixed. About half of county councils were won by retrograde leftwing forces and half by reformist center-right forces. The capital was won by an independent candidate, supported by centre-right parties. The new mayor of Bucharest will be a mathematician.

One step closer to the Jeb surge. Slow and steady, boys.

[XeeleeFlower]

I read about this the other day and found it super fascinating. @Dolan as someone who lives in Romania, how do you feel about citizens from other countries being elected there?

[Mr_Bramboy]

How voting works in the EU is pretty interesting. EU nationals are allowed to vote in the municipality that they live in. This is part of the freedom of movement of citizens. However, EU nationals cannot vote in all national elections without becoming a citizen of that country. Most countries do protect their more valuable jobs and install a requirement for citizenship. I know you cannot be mayor in The Netherlands if you are not Dutch, though this is also due to how our mayors are elected.

@XeeleeFlower Fun fact, if you (as a non-EU resident) live in The Netherlands for 5 consequent years you are eligible to vote in the municipal elections.

[duckzilla]

Not Romanian, but in Germany there are cases like this as well. Dolan already mentioned Octavian Ursu in Görlitz (which is in the Nazi-infested eastern part of Saxony!) and recently there were news about a Danish guy becoming mayor of Rostock. So this happens and I think its nice.

I like seeing nationality becoming a less important issue in an election than actual policy.


Fun fact: all of you can become chancellor of Germany. So, if you don't know what to do with life, just come to Germany, get citizenship and follow Angela Merkel on the throne!

[voigt1240]

Even an austrian came to power in germany. It's wonderful how those things happen. There is also a Syrian Who used to be 2nd in charge of one of the big political parties here too.

[duckzilla]

Even an austrian came to power in germany. It's wonderful how those things happen. There is also a Syrian Who used to be 2nd in charge of one of the big political parties here too.

To be fair, the thing about Austrians being Germans or not was not really decided when the Bohemian private became chancellor. He even fought for the Bavarian army (which was obviously part of the Imperial German Army) during the first world war, if I remember correctly.

[Dolan]

I read about this the other day and found it super fascinating. @Dolan as someone who lives in Romania, how do you feel about citizens from other countries being elected there?

I've no particular feeling if that's their right and if they can actually manage to work with people with a much different mentality and be able to talk to them in their language, sure why not. I feel like some of them have been sent here on a mission, maybe, to boost the administrative capacity of these big cities, which might be super-important to business interests from Germany and other big economic powers in the EU. It wouldn't really bother me to know that some of them might be spies, as long as they do their job as mayors too.

After all, we've traditionally had good relations with Transylvanian Saxons (who are Germanic) here for centuries. They used to have communities living here since the 13th century, when a Teutonic Order of knights was settled here for a while. So Germans generally have a good image here. Even our current president hails from a Germanic ethnic minority group.

We don't have as much experience working with the French, but the French have always been considered a "sister nation" here, due to sharing a Romance linguistic background and because France has always been perceived as a strategic ally here.

There might be some Romanians who might think that the country is getting colonised by Franco-German interests, which wouldn't be entirely inaccurate, given that about 50% of the country's GDP is owned and generated by foreign companies now (most of them from the EU). Long term, who knows which direction people's attitudes will take.

[fightinfrenchman]

I don't know if y'all still count it as Europe but the UK is a literal cartoon

[chris1089]

Lol. "Is the UK still counted as Europe?"