European politics

[voigt1240]

I remember there being a picture of Mohammed in our history book back in the days.

Also the guy Who made all the satirical Mohammed drawings in Denmark in 2005 had to get 24/7 protection from pet guards.

Plenty of assinations plans regarding that guy. They shot an intruder armed with a knife and an axe trying to assinate him in his home a few years back. Drawing Mohammed is no small thing.

[Dolan]

Yeah and we're being told and taught to be tolerant with whatever they bring here, but when it comes to them doing their part and tolerating other people's freedom of expression, they can't accept our rules.
So why do they migrate here if they can't accept we have more freedom of speech here?
Maybe they should have just stayed back in their original countries, if they can't stand this level of freedom of speech.

[duckzilla]

Do you know more about the guy? Was he born in France or french citizen?
In that case it should be quite difficult to give him a one-way ticket back to his "holy lands".

In my opinion, this does not show whether multiculturalism can work or not. Last year, we had a crackpot here in Germany who tried to shoot the entrance door to a synagogue open to massacre the 50+ people inside. He did not have any immigrant background. There is crazy people everywhere, maybe one should care for people in general.

Another example is that Australian dude that was successful with a similar plan, targeting mosques in New Zealand. Maybe he should have stayed in Australia, if he cannot accept NZ's rules. Should have killed people at home instead.

[Dolan]

Whatever his background, it is clear he was educated in one of those parallel environments, in which some Muslims educate their kids. They teach them rules which only abide by the Quran, their holy book.
This is not about a crackpot, dude, this is a phenomenon. Why do you think recently Macron came out with this strong message against the risk of Muslim communities in France forming parallel societies, that run based on separate rules?

Speaking outside Paris on Friday, Mr Macron said "Islamist separatism" was a danger to France because it held its own laws above all others and "often results in the creation of a counter-society".
He said this form of sectarianism often translated into children being kept out of school, and the use of sporting, cultural and other community activities as a "pretext to teach principles that do not conform to the laws of the republic".

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54383173

Do you think Macron is some kind of nazi or white supremacist, is that why he came out criticising this tendency he observed in France? No, he did that simply because it's a real problem, it's not just about some fringe lunatics. These perpetrators of religiously motivated killings are just the tip of an iceberg, they are the violent expression of a cultural fracture that has been growing in France and other Western countries where there are large Muslim communities.

[gibson]

Do you know more about the guy? Was he born in France or french citizen?
In that case it should be quite difficult to give him a one-way ticket back to his "holy lands".

In my opinion, this does not show whether multiculturalism can work or not. Last year, we had a crackpot here in Germany who tried to shoot the entrance door to a synagogue open to massacre the 50+ people inside. He did not have any immigrant background. There is crazy people everywhere, maybe one should care for people in general.

Another example is that Australian dude that was successful with a similar plan, targeting mosques in New Zealand. Maybe he should have stayed in Australia, if he cannot accept NZ's rules. Should have killed people at home instead.

According to some people, 1-2 examples out of literally hundreds of thousands "proves" that something doesn't work. Just conformation bias at work.

[Dolan]

Ahuh, and the French president Macron is a clueless idiot, that's why he came out criticising Islamic separatism in France. Because he doesn't have the first clue about what's happening in his own country.
Nobody told him it's just 1-2 examples out of literally hundreds of thousands.

[Dolan]

Btw @gibson here's your list of 1-2 cases of Muslim terror attacks in France:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... st_century

Someone from France is telling me they had 1 dead cop, 1 severely injured, 1 stabbed person and the beheaded teacher, all Muslim terror attacks committed within 3 weeks.
Yep, it's just some crackpots, not the expression of something deeper, as the French president pointed out.

[Mr_Bramboy]

It is a sad state of affairs.

[voigt1240]

There is nothing liberal or forward thinking about islam. I have no problem with muslim inviduals on a personal level, but the doctrine of islam finding its way in a different culture can be dangerous. These terror acts become more and more prevalent all over the EU.

[Dolan]

This happens because these Muslim communities never really got integrated where they migrated. They're foreigners even down to the second or third generation. When you live in a parallel society according to your original native culture's rules and just pretend to integrate in the host country, it doesn't matter you were born in the host country. You're still a cultural foreigner, you live your life by principles from another culture that is incompatible with the host country. So, for you, your value system is more important than cohabitation.

That's why we don't have this problem in Romania, despite having a community of Tatar Muslims here, of a few tens of thousands. Because they lived here for centuries, so for them cohabitation has become more important than whatever religious beliefs they have. They're also too small to feel empowered enough to live in a separate society, according to their own religious rules. They would never risk creating conflicts of cohabitation because they felt compelled to kill in order to avenge a religious slight. This kind of integration has never happened in France or other Western countries, because those Muslims are recent migrants. They just formed separate societies, where religious rules prevail and everything else comes secondary. For them cohabitation is not more important than their beliefs and they would kill for their beliefs, as these incidents show.

[wardyb1]

I'm confused about what you are actually proposing though. Do you think Islam should just be banned? Do you want to deport people for their religion? Deport them to where if they are only French citizens?

[Dolan]

No, obviously it is not practically possible to expel Muslim people from France anymore and it would be unfair to expel Muslims who made that effort and integrated in French society. They have accepted the rules of the land and live by them.

But those that refuse to integrate and continue to live in parallel societies, like the ones mentioned by Macron in his recent public messages, they need to make up their minds. If they refuse to accept that freedom of speech laws in France allow cartoonists to draw pictures of Mohammed (their prophet), then maybe they should be given a choice to peacefully relocate to a country that aligns better with their value system. It's unacceptable that a teacher would be decapitated by the parent of a schoolgirl, just because she told him their teacher showed them cartoons with Mohammed. It wasn't even some kind of fringe terrorist, it was a guy from a Muslim family who didn't accept this act done by the teacher. The teacher, apparently, even asked kids from Muslim families if they wanted to leave the classroom first, before he showed the cartoons, if they thought this would be contrary to their beliefs. They were given this choice. And yet, I suppose the schoolgirl stayed and reported back to her dad. Then her dad decapitated the teacher in broad daylight.

These people still live by Medieval rules. They avenge a religious slight by physically terminating that person. It's not even eye for an eye, it's your head for a cartoon.

[wardyb1]

Those damn people that don't follow the laws of the land. If only we had some form of system that judged people for breaking the law and gave them some form of punishment/rehabilitation. Oh well I'm sure they'll think of something along those lines in the next century or so.

[Dolan]

How do you even identify who's likely to commit such a thing? It wasn't even some radicalised weirdo, it was a family guy. There was no law broken before this event. The teacher just showed some cartoons in a class about freedom of expression, I think. Then he got decapitated for it. Try to use the law to repair such a situation.
It's just social conflict created by multiculturalism, which clearly does not work.

[wardyb1]

How do you even identify who's likely to commit such a thing? It wasn't even some radicalised weirdo, it was a family guy. There was no law broken before this event. The teacher just showed some cartoons in a class about freedom of expression, I think. Then he got decapitated for it. Try to use the law to repair such a situation.
It's just social conflict created by multiculturalism, which clearly does not work.

You don't identify that beforehand because we aren't in some dystopian hellhole. We punish people for crimes committed. Can't honestly believe you of all people believe in "thought crimes".

[Dolan]

Sounds like you're implying that such murders are not preventable, so the law should only deal with their effects. In other words, we need to resign ourselves to the fact that Muslims will behead those who present cartoons with Mohammed in any context and let the law deal with the effects of murder afterwards.

I'm not sure you understand these are not isolated cases, they're the end result of a deeper phenomenon that shows the failure of multiculturalism.

[wardyb1]

No it's that you don't blanket a huge population for the actions of a tiny minority. Some actions aren't preventable. You don't say we need to deal with Christians when someone goes and commits some heinous act in the name of God.

[fightinfrenchman]

Lol

[voigt1240]

What christian extremism have we seen in Europe in the last 10 years.

The rate of muslim extremism and terror attacks commited by muslims is undeniable and incomparable to any other religion in this Day and age.

The thing is christianity had a reformation.

[duckzilla]

There is nothing liberal or forward thinking about islam. I have no problem with muslim inviduals on a personal level, but the doctrine of islam finding its way in a differentculture can be dangerous. These terror acts become more and more prevalent all over the EU.

What a retarded generalization. Your very assertion that a single "doctrine of Islam" exists is the illiberal and backward thinking problem here. And these terror acts do not become more prevalent "all over Europe". Germany has nearly as many muslims as Denmark has in total population and there is still neither Sharia law nor a blatant issue with religiously motivated violence.

Germany has a far higher number of far-right motivated violent acts against synagogues, mosques, and the like than the other way around. That does not mean that there are no problems at all. But you guys are singling out crimes based purely on their religious background, then group all people of the same faith together and begin to judge. That's precisely how Nazi stuff begins.

What christian extremism have we seen in Europe in the last 10 years.

If I remember correctly, the terrorist act with the highest death toll in the past decades had a Christian background.
To cite a journal article on Anders Breivik:

The Bible functions as a legitimating device for terror, glossing violence as defense of a Christian God and a Christian Europe; as a motivational instrument, positing God as a fellow fighter; and, finally, as a point of origin for a Christian, mono-cultural Europe. Ultimately, the Bible is a split site in Breivik’s manifesto: on the one hand, it is situated sanctimoniously in a pre-modern state where its signifying powers are stabilized through the policing of interpretive activity; on the other hand, it is wrenched out of this solidified framework, cut up like a collage and pasted into the manifesto hypertext in order to serve as a contemporary ally to an anti-Muslim and anti-multicultural cause.

Also this:

The rate of muslim extremism and terror attacks commited by muslims is undeniable and incomparable to any other religion in this Day and age.

is utter nonsense, because it purely depends on when you call an act of extremism "muslim" or "christian". There are hundreds of attacks against synagogues and other signs of Jewish life in Germany each year. Although the vast majority of them is commited by "christian" Germans, they are not labelled as "christian" motivated crimes. The other way around, every time a muslim coughs in the wrong direction people will call it a violent islamist action.
Do we count burning homes of asylum seekers christian extremism? Maybe we should! Suddenly, we would see that Germany is full of christian extremisms.

[duckzilla]

Sounds like you're implying that such murders are not preventable, so the law should only deal with their effects. In other words, we need to resign ourselves to the fact that Muslims will behead those who present cartoons with Mohammed in any context and let the law deal with the effects of murder afterwards.

Another assertion, another generalization.

Do we need to resign ourselves to the fact that Germans will try to shoot/gas Jews in any context and let the law deal with the effects of murder afterwards? The recent attack on a synagogue in Halle and the (actual) fact that nearly all synagogues in Germany are protected 24/7 by the police both seem to suggest that.

I'm not sure you understand these are not isolated cases, they're the end result of a deeper phenomenon that shows the failure of multiculturalism is my tendency to generalizations.

ftfy

[voigt1240]

There is nothing liberal or forward thinking about islam. I have no problem with muslim inviduals on a personal level, but the doctrine of islam finding its way in a differentculture can be dangerous. These terror acts become more and more prevalent all over the EU.

What a retarded generalization. Your very assertion that a single "doctrine of Islam" exists is the illiberal and backward thinking problem here. And these terror acts do not become more prevalent "all over Europe". Germany has nearly as many muslims as Denmark has in total population and there is still neither Sharia law nor a blatant issue with religiously motivated violence.

Germany has a far higher number of far-right motivated violent acts against synagogues, mosques, and the like than the other way around. That does not mean that there are no problems at all. But you guys are singling out crimes based purely on their religious background, then group all people of the same faith together and begin to judge. That's precisely how Nazi stuff begins.

What christian extremism have we seen in Europe in the last 10 years.

If I remember correctly, the terrorist act with the highest death toll in the past decades had a Christian background.
To cite a journal article on Anders Breivik:

The Bible functions as a legitimating device for terror, glossing violence as defense of a Christian God and a Christian Europe; as a motivational instrument, positing God as a fellow fighter; and, finally, as a point of origin for a Christian, mono-cultural Europe. Ultimately, the Bible is a split site in Breivik’s manifesto: on the one hand, it is situated sanctimoniously in a pre-modern state where its signifying powers are stabilized through the policing of interpretive activity; on the other hand, it is wrenched out of this solidified framework, cut up like a collage and pasted into the manifesto hypertext in order to serve as a contemporary ally to an anti-Muslim and anti-multicultural cause.

Also this:

The rate of muslim extremism and terror attacks commited by muslims is undeniable and incomparable to any other religion in this Day and age.

is utter nonsense, because it purely depends on when you call an act of extremism "muslim" or "christian". There are hundreds of attacks against synagogues and other signs of Jewish life in Germany each year. Although the vast majority of them is commited by "christian" Germans, they are not labelled as "christian" motivated crimes. The other way around, every time a muslim coughs in the wrong direction people will call it a violent islamist action.

My ex gf is muslim so i have spent a lot of time with muslims both with her family, at school and abroad and the thing is many muslims are not the most liberal in their thinking from personal experience. Also if you look to countries like Saudi Arabia you will see the undermining of women, and the spree of executions.

I dont think you understand what i'm saying. separatist movements do commit terror attacks, but jihadist attacks account for a large portion of fatalities if you read up on europol terror index especially in regards to population.

That does not mean there are no far right/christian motivated acts of terror. Anders Breiviks reason for the massacre was antiislamic i don't think that is a good example.

Unlike Europe, Middle east never really went through an age of reason/enlightenment. So, while Judaism and Christianity had it's fair share of savageness, it's followers learnt to be selective, or reject dogmas. Which sadly hasn't yet happened with Islam and , causing religion to rank above reason still in public discourse. Combine this globalization, and you get the recipe for disaster.

Islam is often considered a violent religion because a lot of the people who build their own religion from the Quran and the Hadith include the parts that command violence. But plenty of people make their personal Islam by ignoring those parts.

My point being religous extremism of any kind is ofc bad. Religion as a driving force for terrorism has increased since 2000. The rate of muslim extremism and terror related attacks are just far too prevalent and it's only increasing. And frankly i think it's retarded downplaying it when it is happening in your backyard. Especially when we take back immigrants who have been supporting or fighting abroad for a terror organisation for a season and then returning back to here. We can agree religious extremism and far right extremism are both bad. We need to be better at intergrating people and cracking down on terror acts.

[duckzilla]

My ex gf is muslim so i have spent a lot of time with muslims both with her family, at school and abroad and the thing is many muslims are not the most liberal in their thinking from personal experience. Also if you look to countries like Saudi Arabia you will see the undermining of women, and the spree of executions.

Many Germans that resettled from Russia after the fall of the Iron Curtain are also not the most liberal in their thinking. They generally have a tendency to vote for the far-right party AfD and have rather conservative views on the role of women in society. They may also be more willing to use violence than the average German (quite anecdotal, but when I was in school, this was the case). Do we need to send them back?

I see your point on Saudi Arabia, but we are not talking about Saudi Arabians. We are talking about Europeans that happen to be muslims. That could, for example, be Germans with Turkish background, Swedes with Bosnian background, or French with Algerian background. What you are doing is taking the extreme example of Saudi Arabia and then putting all the people I just mentioned under this umbrella. That is a drastic and very unfair generalization.

I dont think you understand what i'm saying. separatist movements do commit terror attacks, but jihadist attacks account for a large portion of fatalities if you read up on europol terror index especially in regards to population.

I don't disagree with the point that jihadist attacks are bad and should obviously be prevented. This is an issue of course! To me, the underlying hate and intolerance is comparable to burning refugee homes. Both are the result of ideologies that instigate people against each other.

Unlike Europe, Middle east never really went through an age of reason/enlightenment. So, while Judaism and Christianity had it's fair share of savageness, it's followers learnt to be selective, or reject dogmas. Which sadly hasn't yet happened with Islam and , causing religion to rank above reason still in public discourse. Combine this globalization, and you get the recipe for disaster.

You are evaluating the history of Islam in European terms. What you say boils down to "Islam does not have the same history as Christianity". That's surely true. But China or Japan also never went through an age of reason/enlightenment according to European standards. The ideologies over there are even less heteroegeneous than Islam, which has dozens of schools and obviously a major schism between Sunni and Shiite.
The lack of an ecclesiastical structure (there is no hierarchic church system) allows for much more selection than christianity as you say yourself with:

Islam is often considered a violent religion because a lot of the people who build their own religion from the Quran and the Hadith include the parts that command violence. But plenty of people make their personal Islam by ignoring those parts.

My point being religous extremism of any kind is ofc bad. Religion as a driving force for terrorism has increased since 2000. The rate of muslim extremism and terror related attacks are just far too prevalent and it's only increasing. And frankly i think it's retarded downplaying it when it is happening in your backyard. Especially when we take back immigrants who have been supporting or fighting abroad for a terror organisation for a season and then returning back to here. We can agree religious extremism and far right extremism are both bad.

Of course terrorism and attacks are bad, that's a no-brainer. But the posts in this thread went into the direction of generalizing that multiculturalism fails because of muslims (in general!) not integrating properly etc.

I can only second this one:

We need to be better at intergrating people and cracking down on terror acts.

because it is a general problem of humanity.

[Dolan]

No it's that you don't blanket a huge population for the actions of a tiny minority. Some actions aren't preventable. You don't say we need to deal with Christians when someone goes and commits some heinous act in the name of God.

You're arguing versus a strawman. I specifically said that I don't propose treating all Muslims in the West in the same way. I singled out those who refuse to integrate and live in parallel societies.
How many terror attacks were committed by Christians in the last decades? Two? And what were they in response to? Did they just come out of the blue or were they a backlash to the West's smothering political correctness? I'm not saying they were justified, I'm saying those acts were not committed because their perpetrators didn't like some cartoons with Jesus displayed by someone in a school. You have to take into consideration the specific causation in each case.

[Dolan]

Sounds like you're implying that such murders are not preventable, so the law should only deal with their effects. In other words, we need to resign ourselves to the fact that Muslims will behead those who present cartoons with Mohammed in any context and let the law deal with the effects of murder afterwards.

Another assertion, another generalization.

Do we need to resign ourselves to the fact that Germans will try to shoot/gas Jews in any context and let the law deal with the effects of murder afterwards? The recent attack on a synagogue in Halle and the (actual) fact that nearly all synagogues in Germany are protected 24/7 by the police both seem to suggest that.

Is that part of a phenomenon in Germany? Do you have a parallel society of Germans living according to values and beliefs which are anti-Semitic? That's the case with certain Muslims (not all). And these terror attacks are the tip of an iceberg which reflects a deeper reality that many Muslims in their communities live as if they were in Syria of Iraq. And they put their religious beliefs before anything else, before cohabitation. And if the situation arises they would be willing to kill to avenge any act that depicts their beliefs in a light that they consider blasphemous.