European politics

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Kiribati princeofcarthage
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Re: European politics

Post by princeofcarthage »

fightinfrenchman wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote: Again what does my job has to do with anything? Its like being and saying to an American you are stupid cuz you are black. Pretty cheap shot.
Gonna go out on a limb here and say no, no it's not like that at all.
I have a very dark border line threaten ish joke. Not sure if the American in you can take the joke or not so just clarifying it is a dark dark joke and nothing else.

Ear... If you don't stop making posts like these... going out on a limb is what you will be doing for the rest of your life.
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Latvia harcha
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Re: European politics

Post by harcha »

princeofcarthage wrote:5 millions Russian troops died in preserving Europe's independence in WW1 and this is how you thank them?
Make no mistake, troops died preserving the Russian Empire. In both wars Germany and Russia mobilized the men of captured territories and used them more expendably than their own troops. The regions and the people that suffered most are the ones that came between the powers. That means all Eastern European countries and the western end of Russia.
Playing these "more suffering" olympics is just a Kremlin talking point.
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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European Union scarm
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Re: European politics

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Post by scarm »

Why exactly is today's Russia still to thank for fighting in WW1 anyways when they aren't responsible for the crimes of the USSR? Isn't zarist Russia a "totally different state"? And why does it even matter what territories Russia held at some point when Russia apparently started with a blank slate in 1990 and wasn't a legal successor to former Russian states?
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Latvia harcha
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Re: European politics

Post by harcha »

They aren't even responsible for the crimes of modern Russia, how could you ask them to be responsible for the crimes of USSR...
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Nauru Dolan
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Re: European politics

Post by Dolan »

Russia is not responsible for Stalin's crimes, but Germany is responsible for Hitler's for ever and ever.
The whole trick about responsibility is if you can find someone who is "the responsible type" so you can unload some blame on them.
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European Union scarm
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Re: European politics

Post by scarm »

Just want to clarify something because some of you seem to misunderstand something here (this has been coming up a few times, so this isn't directed to anyone in specific). There is no "cult of guilt" (this is a trope that german Neonazis also use). We aren't somehow beating up on ourselves. There isn't really any strong notion of guilt in everyday life. Most germans do not feel guilty or responsible at all on an individual level, we are too young. It is not like we are running around feeling guilty for the Shoa and WW2. It also does not have major implications for the decisions of the German state anymore.* The main aspect where the responsibility we are taking for the atrocities of the Nazis is shining through is aspects of our state and how we teach and remember the Third Reich. We don't accept people relativizing it. We don't accept people sympathizing with these ideas. We make sure to thoroughly teach people, both kids but also adults, how and why these atrocities happened. We make sure that people truly understand what happened and how fucking horrible it was. We have a decent amount of memorials, special exhibitions and such dealing with the issue, to remind us to not let it happen again. And if one visits such a site, then yes, it will weigh on your soul, and maybe one might feel some guilt, some direct responsibility, but mostly it at least for me is helplessness, anger and grief. In short, we do what every sensible country should do these days, starting with banning Nazi symbology** and a much better education, because as i see it most people around the world, esp. outside europe, honestly seem to not have a fucking clue beyond some very abstract concept, and then project whatever they like onto that.



*The structure of our state, our political culture and so on are heavily imprinted by the experience of the time. But it isn't something that is usually taken into consideration in everyday political decisions. It is not like you can look at a policy by the German government and be like "oh they did this / didn't do this because of the Nazis".

**It honestly boggles my mind that this isn't illegal in most countries already. Seemed to me like it was a given that one wouldn't want people running around waving the Hakenkreuz.
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Nauru Dolan
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Re: European politics

Post by Dolan »

Then why can't anyone get anything out of blaming Russia for Stalinism and its crimes? It just doesn't work, because if you tell them that, it's like you're talking to a wall.
Anyway, I don't think we can understand what went through people's minds during wartime.
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Re: European politics

Post by duckzilla »

To me, it's just much more complicated with Russia and Stalinism. The perpetrators as much as the victims had varying origins, histories and ethnic backgrounds. Stalin himself wasn't an actual Russian, but from Georgia. It is not a simple "the Germans tried to kill all Jews in Europe". Even things like the brutal dissolution of kulaks as a class in the dekulakization, where hundreds of thousands were starved and mass executed, are difficult to assess. Russia itself seems to have been much more of a victim of its own totalitarian government than Germany was.
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Nauru Dolan
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Re: European politics

Post by Dolan »

duckzilla wrote:To me, it's just much more complicated with Russia and Stalinism. The perpetrators as much as the victims had varying origins, histories and ethnic backgrounds. Stalin himself wasn't an actual Russian, but from Georgia. It is not a simple "the Germans tried to kill all Jews in Europe". Even things like the brutal dissolution of kulaks as a class in the dekulakization, where hundreds of thousands were starved and mass executed, are difficult to assess. Russia itself seems to have been much more of a victim of its own totalitarian government than Germany was.
Timeline:
- 26 June 1940 - The USSR gave Romania an ultimatum to cede Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina or face war.
- Traitorous king Carol II gives up without a fight and agrees to such conditions. He later fled the country.
- August 2, 1940 - The Moldavian Soviet Republic is constituted as part of the USSR, which included most of Bessarabia. Bukovina and Hertsa, the other territories taken by the USSR from Romania were glued to the Ukrainian soviet republic.
- Between late 1940 and 1951, Stalin starts a policy of deporting many locals (including Romanians) to forced labour camps. Stalin's regime labelled them kulaks and, by any subjective criteria they found convenient (such as owning too much land), declared them enemies of the soviet order. They were deported to forced labour camps or killed.

https://www.rri.ro/en_gb/the_genocide_o ... na-2547072
The Romanians in Bukovina who refused the Soviet occupation or to be deported to Siberia chose to seek refuge in Romania. The Soviet regime however was not one to respect the will of the people, particularly when it came to freedom of movement. So, as a first step, they closed down the border, to show their determination. At the beginning of 1941, the NKVD spread rumors according to which the regime would allow civilian population free and safe passage into Romania. On April 1, a group of approximately 3,000 Romanians from villages on the valley of Siret River made their way towards the border, planning to cross the border into Romania. 3 kilometers from the borders, the Soviet border police warned the convoy to halt. The people ignored the warning and the military opened fire, killing an unknown number of innocent civilians. The survivors were hunted down and killed with the bayonets. After the massacre, the wounded and the dead were buried in mass graves, men, women and children. The few who were arrested were questioned, tortured and shot. Soviet archives speak of 20 victims, while separate estimates claim that as many as 2,000 people were killed.
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Kiribati princeofcarthage
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Re: European politics

Post by princeofcarthage »

What is it with smaller nations throwing punches far above their weight. Lithuania challenging china, Ukraine Russia.
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Latvia harcha
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Re: European politics

Post by harcha »

that does look like an L for Lithuania
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Poland pecelot
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Re: European politics

Post by pecelot »

yeah, what is it, it practically never happened in history!!!
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Kiribati princeofcarthage
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Re: European politics

Post by princeofcarthage »

And it never turned out great for the smaller nations
Fine line to something great is a strange change.
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European Union scarm
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Re: European politics

Post by scarm »

Now there even are troop movements in the baltic sea with Sweden reinforcing Gotland and Russia moving three heavy troop transport ships there. Slowly but surely this is getting hotter.
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Re: European politics

Post by Sargsyan »

This thread is much more interesting than the USA one. EUEUEUEU
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Kiribati princeofcarthage
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Re: European politics

Post by princeofcarthage »

scarm wrote:Now there even are troop movements in the baltic sea with Sweden reinforcing Gotland and Russia moving three heavy troop transport ships there. Slowly but surely this is getting hotter.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes
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European Union scarm
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Re: European politics

Post by scarm »

German Social Democrats are kinda pissing me off right now. They act and speak like poc, as if Ukraine was to blame themselves and Putin was a big cuddly teddy bear. My favorite party so far in the new government, is, very unexpectedly, the Greens. Just generally somewaht solid on most issues i care about, and they seem to be the only party of the three that is actually ready to govern and make compromises while the other 2 seem to be mostly busy squabbling amongst themselves.
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Kiribati princeofcarthage
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Re: European politics

Post by princeofcarthage »

Ukraine is literally to blame. You just can't see that cuz you have this inherent western notion that anything not under western influence = bad. China bad, Russia bad, Korea bad. Your politicians and media has developed and shaped this notion over the years, decades. So any action by them instantly becomes bad.
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Re: European politics

Post by scarm »

China bad, Russia bad, Korea bad
Totalitarianism and Authoritarianism are bad yes. I have that notion not because i am western but because i believe in free, equal citizens and humans, having basic rights and protection against abuse, because totalitarian states murdered millions. Does that make me biased? Yeah sure. But honestly everyone who does not have that bias is a dipshit.
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Re: European politics

Post by harcha »

princeofcarthage wrote:
17 Jan 2022, 10:28
Ukraine is literally to blame. You just can't see that cuz you have this inherent western notion that anything not under western influence = bad. China bad, Russia bad, Korea bad. Your politicians and media has developed and shaped this notion over the years, decades. So any action by them instantly becomes bad.
If you genuinely think that that's how Europeans consider European politics, then you're missing a lot of context and can't meaningfully understand anything that happens within Europe.
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: European politics

Post by Dolan »

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European Union scarm
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Re: European politics

Post by scarm »

Russian "Aber die Autobahnen!"
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Kiribati princeofcarthage
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Re: European politics

Post by princeofcarthage »

scarm wrote:
17 Jan 2022, 10:45
because totalitarian states murdered millions.
And so did democracies, don't forget that.
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Re: European politics

Post by duckzilla »

princeofcarthage wrote:
17 Jan 2022, 11:37
scarm wrote:
17 Jan 2022, 10:45
because totalitarian states murdered millions.
And so did democracies, don't forget that.
Thanks, Mr. Whataboutism. Especially for bolstering your claims, as usual, with a staggering level of detail.
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Kiribati princeofcarthage
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Re: European politics

Post by princeofcarthage »

duckzilla wrote:
17 Jan 2022, 11:59
princeofcarthage wrote:
17 Jan 2022, 11:37
scarm wrote:
17 Jan 2022, 10:45
because totalitarian states murdered millions.
And so did democracies, don't forget that.
Thanks, Mr. Whataboutism. Especially for bolstering your claims, as usual, with a staggering level of detail.
I am not going to go into staggering level of detail cuz the list is simply too big. But to name a few

Remember the Indonesian mass killings?
Iraq? Countless Palestinians cuz US and Europe have pro-Israeli stance.
Fine line to something great is a strange change.

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