International Day of the World’s Indigenous Peoples

[harcha]

Why doesn't Aoe2 DE bother with these cultural righteousness acknowledgement posts and game changes? Why don't they have to kneecap the gameplay? Surely many horrible things were done during the middle ages as well.

[princeofcarthage]

Normans are arguably more evil though, they are directly responsible for 2 world wars.

[princeofcarthage]

Why doesn't Aoe2 DE bother with these cultural righteousness acknowledgement posts and game changes? Why don't they have to kneecap the gameplay? Surely many horrible things were done during the middle ages as well.

Maybe because of something called dark ages, insufficient material.

[RefluxSemantic]

The Dutch civ design reinforces the harmful stereotype that Dutch people are greedy by making the entire civilization focused on coin and making our villagers cost coin. As a member of the Dutch minority I am deeply offended by this racist game design.

[iNcog]

This thread is the dumpster fire I knew it was going to be. Sorry @aaryngend , you had genuine good faith in posting this thread, but that's now wasted.

[Mr_Bramboy]

Why doesn't Aoe2 DE bother with these cultural righteousness acknowledgement posts and game changes? Why don't they have to kneecap the gameplay? Surely many horrible things were done during the middle ages as well.

What about the Mongols, responsible for the biggest collective rape in history, responsible for inventing new war crimes (such as catapulting plague-ridden cows into cities to infect its inhabitants - the first biological weapon in history), who are now being represented in aoe4?

[InsectPoison]

Every country has its own indigenous people. Some countries are just more indigenous than others. Australia, for example, the colonists far outnumber the indigenous people. Japan on the other hand is predominantly indigenous.

[comradecommissar]

You all are, for lack of better word, fucking stupid.

[fightinfrenchman]

This thread is the dumpster fire I knew it was going to be. Sorry @aaryngend , you had genuine good faith in posting this thread, but that's now wasted.

Easiest prediction ever

[Thrar]

Thank you for the post @aaryngend .

There is probably no point trying to reason with trolls or diehard colonial apologists, but for those willing to engage in meaningful debate, I'd like to raise a few points:

• Purpose and scope: The first sentence describes it as "shine a light on the thousands of Indigenous cultures around the world sharing a common problem: their unique ways of life, traditions, and languages are under threat; and sometimes extinction" (emphasis mine). Further down it says "depicting Indigenous or marginalized civilizations who have had their voices diminished by dominant cultures, or their stories systematically erased from history" (again, my emphasis).
  Given this definition, I don't see how one could in good faith consider the Dutch or any other European colonial power as relevant to this discussion. If you disagree and want to engage in a productive discussion, I'd appreciate your opinion regarding these aspects.
• "Nobody is saying many indigenous peoples weren't cruel and barbaric, but that doesn't justify the way imperialism treated them in most cases": I find the term "barbaric" somewhat hard to define since it depends on perspective, but I agree with the main point. Cultures change over time due to inside and outside factors, but forceful suppression and eradication should be acknowledged as wrong and made right where possible. Giving peoples back their own names rather than using derogatory terms coined by their enemies seems to me like an easy and meaningful way to move in this direction.
• Death tolls and the Mongols: I think the Mongol invasions are seen as special compared to other large genocides because they happened relatively quickly, and because the major Eurasian cultures of the time (roughly speaking, Europeans, Middle Easterners/Indians, and Chinese) considered them outsiders in their writings of history. Other large military campaigns such as Alexander, the many Roman conquests, Chinese expansion, crusades, Spain in South America, the British Empire, and so forth, were largely written and preserved by the attackers, not by those being attacked. It's not hard to see how this perspective changes which actions will be glorified and which will be condemned.
• "Why doesn't Aoe2 DE bother with these cultural righteousness acknowledgement posts and game changes?" I'd argue they do acknowledge these things. For example, since way back in the original release, AoE2 has a campaign looking at the crusades from the Arabs' point of view. In the first official expansion, they got a campaign from the Aztec point of view. Adding the Indians 15 years after the initial release seems to me like a similarly overdue addition as adding African civs in AoE3.
  I think to an extent it was easier for AoE2, which mostly deals with events 500+ years ago that with a few exceptions are largely seen as history without direct bearing on people's lives. By contrast, some of the events AoE3 is dealing with happened less than 150 years ago and their effects are still felt today. You can look at the mass graves of indigenous children found in Canada just a few weeks ago and the resulting debate as an example. It touches people's lives in a different way from unearthing the bones of people killed by Mongols.
• Funny cat facts: "Do you think cats are different in Asia than in NA?" Yes, actually, and I'm not talking about breeds created by humans. You can even see this looking at strays in different regions. For example, where I live (SE Asia), most cats have a very short knobbly tail or even no tail at all. Foreign visitors sometimes wonder if that's because the cat had an accident, but it's actually genetic.

[Squamiger]

[helln00]

can we close this, no offense to @aaryngend but its only going to get worse from here.

[princeofcarthage]

[*]Funny cat facts: "Do you think cats are different in Asia than in NA?" Yes, actually, and I'm not talking about breeds created by humans. You can even see this looking at strays in different regions. For example, where I live (SE Asia), most cats have a very short knobbly tail or even no tail at all. Foreign visitors sometimes wonder if that's because the cat had an accident, but it's actually genetic.[/list]

I am not talking about the physical or the minor genetic difference. Humans experience them too. Do cat in canada meows differently than one in Vietnam? Is their nature different across world? Most minor differences that occur in animals also occur in humans. In fact the voices that we make are similar. It's not like that someone from Japan or who speaks Japaneese knows a sound someone else is unable to make. Language and culture are barriers and should be torn down.

[helln00]

Thank you for the post @aaryngend .

There is probably no point trying to reason with trolls or diehard colonial apologists, but for those willing to engage in meaningful debate, I'd like to raise a few points:

• "Nobody is saying many indigenous peoples weren't cruel and barbaric, but that doesn't justify the way imperialism treated them in most cases": I find the term "barbaric" somewhat hard to define since it depends on perspective, but I agree with the main point. Cultures change over time due to inside and outside factors, but forceful suppression and eradication should be acknowledged as wrong and made right where possible. Giving peoples back their own names rather than using derogatory terms coined by their enemies seems to me like an easy and meaningful way to move in this direction.

I dont think anyone is giving people back their own names. People will call themselves what they call themselves, its just a matter of acknowledgement of their name and if they prefer that name then its respectful to call them that. If you have met a person and have a nickname for them(personally), its up to them whether to accept the nickname or whether they would prefer a different name. If you keep calling a person by a name they don't want to be known by, then thats rude.

[JKProwler]

I have no issue with recognising some of the atrocities committed in the past. Actually I think it's important to never forget, so as a human race we can ALL improve going forward.

However just have to be careful that some of these political correctness to go overboard.

As being part of the "minority" and having grew up in harsh conditions, I feel it's kind of patronising that some of the "white guilt" and "virtue signalling" that's conveyed makes it seem like there is something inherently different between humans based on your heritage and colour of your skin.

For me this is racist and disempowering and brainwashing minorities as if to lay the blame of all our problems at the feet of being "non white".

How bout we don't judge ppl character based on race or heritage i.e. non white can also be racist or just because you are white doesn't mean you can't be oppressed.

[helln00]

It sort of depends for me what "inherent" means tbh, There are differences but to me thats due to the environment and context that people live in and how they adapt to it, these differences are in a sense "inherent" cause people will pass it on if they continue to live in those conditions and it also makes it part of their "heritage".

It became associated with skin colour, especially in the west because thats the easiest way to differentiate between people in that context. Elsewhere in the world the differences and heritage is based on something else, heck gingers are discriminated.

The poor and the rich live nearly alien lives to each other and heck in some cases and that alone might be enough to make the difference inherent, heck it has been argued that the origin of the difference between the Tutsi and the Tutu was just that one was rich and the other was poor.

[Thrar]

As being part of the "minority" and having grew up in harsh conditions, I feel it's kind of patronising that some of the "white guilt" and "virtue signalling" that's conveyed makes it seem like there is something inherently different between humans based on your heritage and colour of your skin.

I would largely agree with that, with the caveat that it's important to identify inequalities that are still going on today and counteract them with some form of positive affirmation. If a group was marginalized and living in poverty for more than a hundred years, then simply saying "whoops, sorry, we're good now, let's move on" may make them equals on paper but still leaves them severely disadvantaged in society.

I actually like the changes made in DE and the things aaryngend posted from the AoE team because they focus on empowering and emancipating the marginalized cultures. Reading that post, I see nothing in there that's placing blame, it's entirely focused on positive change.

If I may ask, what is your minority background? What differences from the majority did you encounter in your life and what are your expectations from the majority in dealing with them?

[JKProwler]

As being part of the "minority" and having grew up in harsh conditions, I feel it's kind of patronising that some of the "white guilt" and "virtue signalling" that's conveyed makes it seem like there is something inherently different between humans based on your heritage and colour of your skin.

I would largely agree with that, with the caveat that it's important to identify inequalities that are still going on today and counteract them with some form of positive affirmation. If a group was marginalized and living in poverty for more than a hundred years, then simply saying "whoops, sorry, we're good now, let's move on" may make them equals on paper but still leaves them severely disadvantaged in society.

I actually like the changes made in DE and the things aaryngend posted from the AoE team because they focus on empowering and emancipating the marginalized cultures. Reading that post, I see nothing in there that's placing blame, it's entirely focused on positive change.

If I may ask, what is your minority background? What differences from the majority did you encounter in your life and what are your expectations from the majority in dealing with them?

I'm from the south east Asia where I grew up poor (lucky to have 2 meals in a day) in the early 80s and basically lived in a much tougher conditions than most of the "oppressed" ppl in the western first world countries today.

When my family were lucky enough to move to Australia back in the late 80s, there were not many immigrants in the country and we moved in a all white neighbourhood and the culture was vastly different so you can imagine how tough it was to fit in my highschool years. Was called monkey, the N word, fresh off the boat etc..

What ppl have to understand is that these type of discrimination is not exclusive to Western first world countries. I saw a lot worse where I came from especially with some of the history of the country.

A lot of this also because a by product of human nature, especially in a community where it might not be as diverse in culture or race. But you can say this about anyone that may be different or stand out within a group.

My family worked hard, put emphasis on education for the kids and now we are living comfortably. This is pretty much a template of a lot of immigrants that came from hardship and that's why a lot of immigrants are one of the most successful group in the 1st world countries.

You guys have no idea the freedom, opportunities these countries provide...and if ppl just stop categorising there problems due to being "oppressed" and open there eyes to how lucky they are to be living in a country that provides opportunities they will have a better chance.

Not once did my family think "we are so oppressed". If we had that mentality, it wouldn't have gotten us far.

[dansil92]

is a dumpsterfire thread like this just an annual event now?

@Thrar @JKProwler thank you for your level headed informative posts.

[PatrickLFC]

is a dumpsterfire thread like this just an annual event now?

@Thrar @JKProwler thank you for your level headed informative posts.

Try weekly

[harcha]

There is probably no point trying to reason with trolls or diehard colonial apologists, but for those willing to engage in meaningful debate, I'd like to raise a few points:

I'm genuinely not trolling. I just don't care about being righteous in regard to bringing these things up. All I care about is the game, and the changes made have already detracted from gameplay.

Purpose and scope: The first sentence describes it as "shine a light on the thousands of Indigenous cultures around the world sharing a common problem: their unique ways of life, traditions, and languages are under threat; and sometimes extinction" (emphasis mine). Further down it says "depicting Indigenous or marginalized civilizations who have had their voices diminished by dominant cultures, or their stories systematically erased from history" (again, my emphasis).

I think this is good intentions, but I personally don't care about it.

"Why doesn't Aoe2 DE bother with these cultural righteousness acknowledgement posts and game changes?" I'd argue they do acknowledge these things. For example, since way back in the original release, AoE2 has a campaign looking at the crusades from the Arabs' point of view. In the first official expansion, they got a campaign from the Aztec point of view. Adding the Indians 15 years after the initial release seems to me like a similarly overdue addition as adding African civs in AoE3.
I think to an extent it was easier for AoE2, which mostly deals with events 500+ years ago that with a few exceptions are largely seen as history without direct bearing on people's lives. By contrast, some of the events AoE3 is dealing with happened less than 150 years ago and their effects are still felt today. You can look at the mass graves of indigenous children found in Canada just a few weeks ago and the resulting debate as an example. It touches people's lives in a different way from unearthing the bones of people killed by Mongols.

I think it's not correct to say that it touches peoples lives in a different way. It's just that there is noone alive anymore who could say how mongols touched their peoples lives exactly.

Either way my post was strictly about the game, I don't care about anything else and I don't have to care about your american history.

It seems to me that caring about AOE3 first is unpopular in an AOE3 forum.

[Squamiger]

because they focus on empowering and emancipating the marginalized cultures.

cmon son

[helln00]

As being part of the "minority" and having grew up in harsh conditions, I feel it's kind of patronising that some of the "white guilt" and "virtue signalling" that's conveyed makes it seem like there is something inherently different between humans based on your heritage and colour of your skin.

I would largely agree with that, with the caveat that it's important to identify inequalities that are still going on today and counteract them with some form of positive affirmation. If a group was marginalized and living in poverty for more than a hundred years, then simply saying "whoops, sorry, we're good now, let's move on" may make them equals on paper but still leaves them severely disadvantaged in society.

I actually like the changes made in DE and the things aaryngend posted from the AoE team because they focus on empowering and emancipating the marginalized cultures. Reading that post, I see nothing in there that's placing blame, it's entirely focused on positive change.

If I may ask, what is your minority background? What differences from the majority did you encounter in your life and what are your expectations from the majority in dealing with them?

I'm from the south east Asia where I grew up poor (lucky to have 2 meals in a day) in the early 80s and basically lived in a much tougher conditions than most of the "oppressed" ppl in the western first world countries today.

When my family were lucky enough to move to Australia back in the late 80s, there were not many immigrants in the country and we moved in a all white neighbourhood and the culture was vastly different so you can imagine how tough it was to fit in my highschool years. Was called monkey, the N word, fresh off the boat etc..

What ppl have to understand is that these type of discrimination is not exclusive to Western first world countries. I saw a lot worse where I came from especially with some of the history of the country.

A lot of this also because a by product of human nature, especially in a community where it might not be as diverse in culture or race. But you can say this about anyone that may be different or stand out within a group.

My family worked hard, put emphasis on education for the kids and now we are living comfortably. This is pretty much a template of a lot of immigrants that came from hardship and that's why a lot of immigrants are one of the most successful group in the 1st world countries.

You guys have no idea the freedom, opportunities these countries provide...and if ppl just stop categorising there problems due to being "oppressed" and open there eyes to how lucky they are to be living in a country that provides opportunities they will have a better chance.

Not once did my family think "we are so oppressed". If we had that mentality, it wouldn't have gotten us far.

I definitely agree that discrimination is almost human nature and South East Asia is a very xenophobic and discriminatory place.

I do want to sort of clarify out that the "oppression" as it were applies to the people that are "stuck" for lack of a better word. They are stuck in their conditions as was their forebares and their inability to advance their conditions or even live their lives as they themselves would desire for them and their children is as a result of or stems from a kind of "oppression". There is an oppressive nature to how society treats the poor at the larger scale and the vulnerable whatever their skin colour and while individuals and household can without a doubt escape it, as groups it isn't good and when you can have poverty and poor conditions transmit throughout generations, then I think it is a form of "oppression" or "restrictions".

[JKProwler]

@helln00 I have no doubt some ppl are dealt weaker hands.

The country where your born, raised by 2 parents vs single parent, your health and fitness, your IQ, your looks, your height, your people skills, the culture that you grew up in, your gender, your race, drug and alcohol usage around your home, education opportunities, the suburb you live in, the type of interests and hobbies you have...we can just go on.

All of these will have an impact on how successful someone is financially, in there relationships and self esteem....but for some reason everyone focuses on race as if it's the only factor.

Not everyone will be able to tick every single box...everyone have unique lived lives but we love to just put everyone in a group.

It baffles me that it gets to a point that someone like LeBron James and his kids is labelled as more oppressed than a high school drop out white kid whose parents are hooked on meth.

Instead of focusing on race, ppl need to get to the root of the issue and not get simple solutions to a complex issue

[Thrar]

I'm from the south east Asia where I grew up poor (lucky to have 2 meals in a day) in the early 80s and basically lived in a much tougher conditions than most of the "oppressed" ppl in the western first world countries today.

When my family were lucky enough to move to Australia back in the late 80s, there were not many immigrants in the country and we moved in a all white neighbourhood and the culture was vastly different so you can imagine how tough it was to fit in my highschool years. Was called monkey, the N word, fresh off the boat etc..

What ppl have to understand is that these type of discrimination is not exclusive to Western first world countries. I saw a lot worse where I came from especially with some of the history of the country.

A lot of this also because a by product of human nature, especially in a community where it might not be as diverse in culture or race. But you can say this about anyone that may be different or stand out within a group.

My family worked hard, put emphasis on education for the kids and now we are living comfortably. This is pretty much a template of a lot of immigrants that came from hardship and that's why a lot of immigrants are one of the most successful group in the 1st world countries.

You guys have no idea the freedom, opportunities these countries provide...and if ppl just stop categorising there problems due to being "oppressed" and open there eyes to how lucky they are to be living in a country that provides opportunities they will have a better chance.

Not once did my family think "we are so oppressed". If we had that mentality, it wouldn't have gotten us far.

Thank you. I think you bring up a very interesting viewpoint that I'd guess not many people here have experienced.

I have the impression that the experiences you describe are somewhat similar to those of my friends or colleagues of Indian or Malay heritage here in Singapore.
For those not from this region, let me provide a bit of context: Historically, this part of the world was inhabited by peoples nowadays collectively referred to as "Malays" (although there are many distinct ethnic groups within that term). However, since Singapore was established as a colonial hub by the British 200 years ago, a large number of Indians and Chinese moved to the region, to the point where the population of modern Singapore is by country of ancestry 75% Chinese, 15% Malay, 10% Indian and others. This means the majority culture here is (westernized) Chinese. On paper everybody is equal, but ethnically Malay and Indian families face challenges such as discriminatory landlords, employers, and even teachers, not to speak of "casual" discrimination like name-calling. These things don't happen all the time, but still often enough that every Malay or Indian has stories to tell of first-hand experiences.

Where I think your experience and stance differs from theirs is the reference point for comparison. You're taking it in stride, focusing on the opportunities you have been given, because your reference point is how much better off you are compared to your country of origin. In fact I think this is a great attitude to have in order to make a change in one's own life.
For minorities here, they are frustrated, because they are living in their own country, grew up side by side with the majority, share the same experiences, and are still treated as second-class citizens by some. They did not come here in order to improve their lives, their ancestors lived here for a long time and they expect to be given the same opportunities, the same respect as the majority. What they see is a constant uphill struggle, not by choice, but because they're treated unequally in their own country.
Of course your point stands, an individual may overcome this hardship through struggle and constant self-improvement, but statistically, the same amount of effort will get someone from a privileged position that much farther.

Back to the original post, my take on the North American indigenous people is that their stance is probably similar to those of minorities here, since they, too, are a disadvantaged minority in their own country. They don't compare themselves to a country of origin that they're glad to have left behind, they're comparing themselves to the people in their own country and want to be given the same respect, the same opportunities, on paper as well as in everyday life.