Chess: Is Hans Niemann a cheater?

[Goodspeed]

So there's some drama rn in the sinquefield cup where Carlsen, for the first time in his career, forfeited mid-event, with the clear insinuation that it's because his opponent Hans Niemann cheated.



Then Hikaru, being him, jumped on it immediately and made it explode


Then the next day they have an interview with the guy and ask him about it, starting around 8:20


So the guy has a little bit of a history of online engine cheating but nothing too crazy. The games look normal. There's no theories presented as to how he would have even done this, it's all just "there's no way he improved so much in so little time" and "he doesn't even seem to understand his own position in postgame analysis" (funny about this is that it's in particular about a game against Alireza where they also interviewed Alireza and he seemed to understand it even less), "he cheated before once a cheater always a cheater" blahblah no hard evidence at all.

My take: This is highly embarrassing for Magnus, it's kinda looking like he just couldn't deal with losing to someone who's not even 2700, and also very embarrassing for Hikaru but less so because this kind of shit is expected from him anyways. Carlsen, if he does have something in the way of hard evidence, needs to come out with it asap. His radio silence post-tweet so far is very telling.

[Mitoe]

Hard not to side with Hans with all of the information currently available. Glad to see some players like MVL and Aronian are still able to keep a level head when it comes to the accusations.

It feels like Carlsen has been burnt out on chess for a couple of years now and is trying to find some kind of motivation to continue playing. Setting lofty goals like 2900 elo while discarding others like winning the most world championship matches.

As much as I like Carlsen, sometimes it seems that he doesn't want to play chess anymore, but still wants all the benefits of being the best.

[iNcog]

Carlsen should switch to Go.

[callentournies]

There’s a little sirmusket in all of us, some more than others.

[callentournies]

I’ve sided with Hans, and I thought this was a good article: https://forum.killerchesstraining.com/t ... agaard/856

As far as excuses for cheating go, artificially inflating your rank to get more games with pros is a pretty good one. Here’s to living and learning.

[callentournies]

I’m disappointed in the witch hunt instigated by The Top but understand personally the vindication experienced when a cheating accusation is later confirmed.

As Danya said, Magnus needs to shit or get off the pot. Me? I’ve always unabashedly shat.

[Goodspeed]

As far as excuses for cheating go, artificially inflating your rank to get more games with pros is a pretty good one. Here’s to living and learning.

Agree, it doesn't get much better than that (other than being 12), though still no excuse ofc.

People really seem to underestimate the massive difference between OTB cheating and online engine cheating. The difference in the kind of person it would take to develop a sophisticated system to cheat in such an event versus just booting up an engine on your PC.

[callentournies]

The narrative I thought made the most sense was Carlsen believed his opening prep/choice was compromised by his Circle, and withdrew in the face of what that meant for his ridiculous quest for 2900. Unethical? It’s cut throat at the top. Cheating? Not quite.

He laid the groundwork for the hunt to begin, and became something more than he aspired. But then Hans was physically searched and the stream restarted with 15 min delay and Han’s chesscom account was nuked (magnus affiliated site now) and FIDE ethics made a magnus-aligned comment, so maybe that was the insulation all along.

[callentournies]

To make the psychoanalytic Mistake I agree with Mitoe. I think Carlsen could be suffering massive cognitive dissonance with his relationship to chess and status. We’re all people, Little.

[callentournies]

Aside, Han's quickly assuming accent is awesome and means nothing -- we're all communicative creatures of imitation and once I was getting shittered at a bar in Omaha with some British folk and assumed their accent somewhat thru the night and I made a self conscious comment about it but they liked it and it's all indicative of melding with People. Melding is good!

[Goodspeed]

The narrative I thought made the most sense was Carlsen believed his opening prep/choice was compromised by his Circle, and withdrew in the face of what that meant for his ridiculous quest for 2900. Unethical? It’s cut throat at the top. Cheating? Not quite.

I find this highly unlikely, especially considering Carlsen's inner circle is supposedly very tight, and especially considering that if there was someone they would leak prep to why would it be this guy of all people?

To make the psychoanalytic Mistake I agree with Mitoe. I think Carlsen could be suffering massive cognitive dissonance with his relationship to chess and status. We’re all people, Little.

This seems much more likely

[Mitoe]

As far as excuses for cheating go, artificially inflating your rank to get more games with pros is a pretty good one. Here’s to living and learning.

Agree, it doesn't get much better than that (other than being 12), though still no excuse ofc.

People really seem to underestimate the massive difference between OTB cheating and online engine cheating though. The difference in the kind of person it would take to develop a sophisticated system to cheat in such an event versus just booting up an engine on your PC.

He cheated when he was 16 as well - only a couple of years ago.

Even though he says he cheated so he could play against better players, I think that could just be a convenient excuse. He may even believe it himself, but likely he just wanted to be perceived as a strong player. At least, that's the impression I get from his interviews: he comes off as having a bit of an ego when he talks about how he's always felt like he has something to prove and isn't stopping at 2700, etc.

I'm willing to overlook his past cheating in light of his age, but I don't buy that the core reason for cheating was to better himself.

[callentournies]

The narrative I thought made the most sense was Carlsen believed his opening prep/choice was compromised by his Circle, and withdrew in the face of what that meant for his ridiculous quest for 2900. Unethical? It’s cut throat at the top. Cheating? Not quite.

I find this highly unlikely, especially considering Carlsen's inner circle is supposedly very tight, and especially considering that if there was someone they would leak prep to why would it be this guy of all people?

It's a good point. But in hindsight they couldn't have given it to a better person, if you want to arm a passionate up n coming Shark and you're disaffected with The Guy who's lost his spark. Followers can do weird things and when relationships are in part predicated on being the best in the world, there may be factors at play that aren't just a deep personal affection/loyalty divorced of Accolade.

[Goodspeed]

As far as excuses for cheating go, artificially inflating your rank to get more games with pros is a pretty good one. Here’s to living and learning.

Agree, it doesn't get much better than that (other than being 12), though still no excuse ofc.

People really seem to underestimate the massive difference between OTB cheating and online engine cheating though. The difference in the kind of person it would take to develop a sophisticated system to cheat in such an event versus just booting up an engine on your PC.

He cheated when he was 16 as well - only a couple of years ago.

I'm saying his excuse was good in that instance, and even better in the other instance where he was 12.

Even though he says he cheated so he could play against better players, I think that could just be a convenient excuse. He may even believe it himself, but likely he just wanted to be perceived as a strong player. At least, that's the impression I get from his interviews: he comes off as having a bit of an ego when he talks about how he's always felt like he has something to prove and isn't stopping at 2700, etc.

I'm willing to overlook his past cheating in light of his age, but I don't buy that the core reason for cheating was to better himself.

Yeah the real reason may be different, and it's also somewhat likely that there were other instances where he didn't get caught. For me though, regardless of any of that, there's so much difference between OTB cheating and online cheating that I wouldn't even consider online cheating to be predictive of OTB cheating. I'd wager there's barely a correlation between the two.

[Goodspeed]

The narrative I thought made the most sense was Carlsen believed his opening prep/choice was compromised by his Circle, and withdrew in the face of what that meant for his ridiculous quest for 2900. Unethical? It’s cut throat at the top. Cheating? Not quite.

I find this highly unlikely, especially considering Carlsen's inner circle is supposedly very tight, and especially considering that if there was someone they would leak prep to why would it be this guy of all people?

It's a good point. But in hindsight they couldn't have given it to a better person, if you want to arm a passionate up n coming Shark and you're disaffected with The Guy who's lost his spark.

I think when it comes to stuff like this it's less about who you want to arm, and more about who you happen to be friends with. A lot of trust is needed. You wouldn't put your relationship with MC on the line for someone you barely know and has nothing to offer you.

[Goodspeed]

Another thing that makes it unlikely Magnus' opening choice was leaked is that Hans put so much emphasis on how he happened to have looked at it. If he were trying to hide that this was leaked to him, it would've made much more sense to brush off any discussion about the opening with "I didn't know this line in detail but just happened to make the right moves". He used a plausible amount of time, right?

[Mitoe]

Show hidden quotes

As far as excuses for cheating go, artificially inflating your rank to get more games with pros is a pretty good one. Here’s to living and learning.

Agree, it doesn't get much better than that (other than being 12), though still no excuse ofc.

People really seem to underestimate the massive difference between OTB cheating and online engine cheating though. The difference in the kind of person it would take to develop a sophisticated system to cheat in such an event versus just booting up an engine on your PC.

He cheated when he was 16 as well - only a couple of years ago.

I'm saying his excuse was good in that instance, and even better in the other instance where he was 12.

Even though he says he cheated so he could play against better players, I think that could just be a convenient excuse. He may even believe it himself, but likely he just wanted to be perceived as a strong player. At least, that's the impression I get from his interviews: he comes off as having a bit of an ego when he talks about how he's always felt like he has something to prove and isn't stopping at 2700, etc.

I'm willing to overlook his past cheating in light of his age, but I don't buy that the core reason for cheating was to better himself.

Yeah the real reason may be different, and it's also somewhat likely that there were other instances where he didn't get caught. For me though, regardless of any of that, there's so much difference between OTB cheating and online cheating that I wouldn't even consider online cheating to be predictive of OTB cheating. I'd wager there's barely a correlation between the two.

I'm not sure if I agree that cheating online is more forgivable. If it was really only in "random" games like he claims then maybe, but he very well could've cheated in some online tournaments with prize money as well.

Another thing that makes it unlikely Magnus' opening choice was leaked is that Hans put so much emphasis on how he happened to have looked at it. If he were trying to hide that this was leaked to him, it would've made much more sense to brush off any discussion about the opening with "I didn't know this line in detail but just happened to make the right moves". He used a plausible amount of time, right?

Yeah I doubt it was leaked.

[callentournies]

True. His transposition argument is good and makes sense. I hadn't listened to that yet when I was believing the leak narrative. Hard to believe Magnus would stoop so low so fast.

[Goodspeed]

I'm not sure if I agree that cheating online is more forgivable. If it was really only in "random" games like he claims then maybe, but he very well could've cheated in some online tournaments with prize money as well.

I don't mean more forgivable. I just think it takes a different kind of person to do it so one doesn't necessarily predict the other

[Mitoe]

Wouldn't that be because one is easier than the other? The biggest inhibitors for cheating OTB is that it's harder to do, easier to get caught, and less anonymous compared to cheating online.

[Goodspeed]

Mainly that yeah. And it changes everything. Cheating at an event like this is some mission impossible shit. It's a big undertaking, unlike booting up an engine on your PC. My point is that someone who is capable of cheating in random games online wouldn't necessarily be capable of said mission impossible shit. It takes a different personality, different skills, etc. So different that I would argue one doesn't predict the other.

[iNcog]

[callentournies]

the ben finegold video dropped so this thread is pointless now

[Goodspeed]

Not pointless at all, since it's how I found out about the BF vid dropping

[callentournies]