World Cup 2022

[Goodspeed]

FIFA being a mafia is nothing new, dunno why people are so shocked only now.

Can you think of any reason people might be paying more attention to FIFA right now than usual?

No.
Other than the fact that the world cup event takes place now...

So yes..

[Dolan]

I haven't kept up with all the details, like what's so scandalous about this event.

Basically, for the first time ever the world's biggest soccer tournament is being held in a non-European country that's richer and more powerful than most European countries, and it's driving European racists crazy. So now they're 'boycotting' the event and hoping it fails somehow

You mean these guys who took the knee for LGBT are racists? Whoa, fire fr

team lineups

[lejend]

I haven't kept up with all the details, like what's so scandalous about this event.

Basically, for the first time ever the world's biggest soccer tournament is being held in a non-European country that's richer and more powerful than most European countries, and it's driving European racists crazy. So now they're 'boycotting' the event and hoping it fails somehow

You mean these guys who took the knee for LGBT are racists? Whoa, fire fr

team lineups

Nah, those guys agreed to participate in the competition and not promote sexual immorality while they're there. Racists would be the people boycotting the competition and demonizing a whole country

Some good points here:

[harcha]

Nah, those guys agreed to participate in the competition and not promote sexual immorality[citation needed] while they're there. Racists would be the people boycotting the competition and demonizing a whole country - that's quite the logical leap there

[harcha]

Quite the snoozers tbh. I expected far edgier takes regarding the Qatar world cup in here. Gobbling up Qatary lip service like that is quite cringe, ngl. But for "oh no, they turn the frogs gay"-folks, I suppose even an oil monarchies' awkward propaganda will do to support some sort of ambiguous social statement.

At the same time, I think we can all agree that those desperate last minute attempts of saving face by football associations and players is also quite unbearable. Pull out of the qualifiers and you actually make a statement. A symbolic fight over a damn captain's armband is embarrassing and way too easy prey. Trying to capitalize on morals is almost a bigger front than the corrupt world cup itself.

Spoiler

In the end it always boils down to 'Capitalism bad'

there's really no point in genuinely arguing with people who are known
to argue in bad faith. much like there is no point being shocked at
the organization sucking off elites for some money cum, that's their
job.

also why is every IP i make 1 post from banned @EAGLEMUT @musketeer925

[Dolan]

Show hidden quotes

I haven't kept up with all the details, like what's so scandalous about this event.

Basically, for the first time ever the world's biggest soccer tournament is being held in a non-European country that's richer and more powerful than most European countries, and it's driving European racists crazy. So now they're 'boycotting' the event and hoping it fails somehow

You mean these guys who took the knee for LGBT are racists? Whoa, fire fr

team lineups

Nah, those guys agreed to participate in the competition and not promote sexual immorality while they're there. Racists would be the people boycotting the competition and demonizing a whole country

Some good points here:

Code: Select all

https://twitter.com/emmappiah478/status/1592231692793974787

Yeah, today racists are those that reject a category of people on whatever grounds and fascists are those that don't agree with my superior moral higher ground.
It's about "I'ma make you look bad by calling you bad label" even tho the meaning of the label is derivative to the 10th hand

[Dolan]

also why is every IP i make 1 post from banned @EAGLEMUT @musketeer925

I thought this only happened to me because ESOC hates me, but it turns out they don't discriminate, they hate us all

[iNcog]

What is sexual immorality?

[lejend]

Show hidden quotes

I haven't kept up with all the details, like what's so scandalous about this event.

Basically, for the first time ever the world's biggest soccer tournament is being held in a non-European country that's richer and more powerful than most European countries, and it's driving European racists crazy. So now they're 'boycotting' the event and hoping it fails somehow

You mean these guys who took the knee for LGBT are racists? Whoa, fire fr

team lineups

Nah, those guys agreed to participate in the competition and not promote sexual immorality while they're there. Racists would be the people boycotting the competition and demonizing a whole country

Some good points here:

Code: Select all

https://twitter.com/emmappiah478/status/1592231692793974787

Yeah, today racists are those that reject a category of people on whatever grounds and fascists are those that don't agree with my superior moral higher ground.
It's about "I'ma make you look bad by calling you bad label" even tho the meaning of the label is derivative to the 10th hand

Jokes aside, while there's plenty to criticize about an Islamic dictatorship like Qatar, some of the criticism does seem to cross the line into racism. It's one thing to criticize a country, it's another thing to demonize it and subject it to double standards. If the people boycotting the tournament really care so much about corruption and human rights violations, why didn't they boycott the World Cup when it was held in Russia just a few years ago? It was the exact same situation, down to Russia banning pro-gay displays.

The only logical explanation is that they're against Qatar hosting the tournament for other reasons, reasons that they're embarrased to admit in public, and their focus on human rights etc. is just a cover. That explains why most of the things they claim to be so upset about aren't even true, like "10,000 slaves died building Qatar's stadiums" and other made-up nonsense.

That's the impression I get, at least. But if they don't want to watch the competition, it's their loss. They're not really hurting anyone besides themselves. Everyone else seems to be enjoying it just fine. I mean, we've just seen two huge upsets in two days. Argentina and Germany might not even make it past the group stage. This is honestly shaping up to be the most exciting World Cup in living memory. Anyone not watching is seriously missing out.

[iNcog]

But what is sexual immorality?

[harcha]

Jokes aside, while there's plenty to criticize about an Islamic
dictatorship like Qatar, some of the criticism does seem to cross the
line into racism. It's one thing to criticize a country, it's another
thing to demonize it and subject it to double standards. If the people
boycotting the tournament really care so much about corruption and
human rights violations, why didn't they boycott the World Cup when it
was held in Russia just a few years ago? It was the exact same
situation, down to Russia banning pro-gay displays.

The only logical explanation is that they're against Qatar hosting the
tournament for other reasons, reasons that they're embarrased to admit
in public, and their focus on human rights etc. is just a
cover.

Instead of thinking up conspiracies I'd like to imagine that these
issues have become more actualized in the span of last few years, at
least among politically active people. As for politicians and global
leaders, I don't discount their abilities to conspire.

That explains why most of the things they claim to be so upset about
aren't even true, like "10,000 slaves died building Qatar's stadiums"
and other made-up nonsense.

That's the impression I get, at least. But if they don't want to watch
the competition, it's their loss. They're not really hurting anyone
besides themselves. Everyone else seems to be enjoying it just fine.

slavery is a myth, you heard it here first folks

[Dolan]

brutal/lethal working conditions for imported workforce has been a thing for decades in Gulf states
how do ppl think Dubai was built



it's only "now" that Westoids get scandalised about it, in the age of offense-taking escalation and Twitter purity spirals

[Goodspeed]

brutal/lethal working conditions for imported workforce has been a thing for decades in Gulf states
how do ppl think Dubai was built



it's only "now" that Westoids get scandalised about it, in the age of offense-taking escalation and Twitter purity spirals

So should we go back to not caring or is caring good?

[Dolan]

I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of discovering the ugly side of something only now, despite this being a known thing for decades.
It's the same for how iPhones are made. Now there's police cracking down on workers at Foxconn, because they dared to protest against working conditions in those iPhone plants.
For Apple and their Westoid consoomers, this is just a question of PR, how much they manage to get Foxconn to stifle it in a way that will salvage their moralistic higher ground. Once it gets 'solved' from a PR point of view, phew, back to comfy consumption. Safe in the knowledge that those workers got a 'fair deal' because that's what Apple and the media say.

It's the same for this football event. For years these people who get scandalised now didn't care much about what was already known, that workers in Gulf states get worked to death. They comfily traded with Gulf states, sold them weapons, let them buy castles in France or UK, let them fund football teams (PSG, Man City), sold them Western tech and integrated them in the global financial markets, made them rich by buying oil and gas from them, did vacations in Dubai and bragged about it posting selfies on their IG. And now they're: OMG, Qatar is such a medieval state, abusing poor workers, el-gee-bee-tee and wymen, hurrrr, FIFA is corrupt. It's anyone's fault but their own, when they funded these states out of greed and desire to make profits, while keeping their eyes closed to the underlying realities.

Maybe what's really at stake here is the realisation that if you have it good, wherever you are on this planet, it's very likely at the cost of someone being worked to death in some other corner of the planet. How far are you really willing to lose your living standards to align them with the level of moralistic outrage that you display when faced with these realities? Would you be willing to work the land on a farm or pull levers in a metalworking plant to align better with what you don't want others to be put through? Would you be willing to work until the night every day to build those Wordpress themes for 2 bucks per day, like some Indonesians in a webdev sweatshop in Jakarta? Because making it right for them means they should sell their work at higher prices, meaning everything would become more expensive for you: clothes, website themes, hard disk drives, garbage disposal bags, everything that you buy in a supermarket or online. It's all cheaper thanks to someone being paid close to nothing in some corner of the planet.

Are Instagram thots willing to never post Dubai selfies to fix the injustice done to Dubai workers?
Are iPhone owners willing to never buy a unit because it's built with slave work in Foxconn factories? Doubt.
Etc.

It feels better to virtue signal and say you won't accept what Qatar does, but would you be willing to live on a third or less of your current income to make it right?
'Caring' and signalling is cheap, being willing to take the hit on living standards to align with the values you preach is something that most are not willing to put themselves through. Otherwise they would have done it until now.

[harcha]

I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of discovering the ugly side of something only now, despite this being a known thing for decades.
It's the same for how iPhones are made. Now there's police cracking down on workers at Foxconn, because they dared to protest against working conditions in those iPhone plants.
For Apple and their Westoid consoomers, this is just a question of PR, how much they manage to get Foxconn to stifle it in a way that will salvage their moralistic higher ground. Once it gets 'solved' from a PR point of view, phew, back to comfy consumption. Safe in the knowledge that those workers got a 'fair deal' because that's what Apple and the media say.

It's the same for this football event. For years these people who get scandalised now didn't care much about what was already known, that workers in Gulf states get worked to death. They comfily traded with Gulf states, sold them weapons, let them buy castles in France or UK, let them fund football teams (PSG, Man City), sold them Western tech and integrated them in the global financial markets, made them rich by buying oil and gas from them, did vacations in Dubai and bragged about it posting selfies on their IG. And now they're: OMG, Qatar is such a medieval state, abusing poor workers, el-gee-bee-tee and wymen, hurrrr, FIFA is corrupt. It's anyone's fault but their own, when they funded these states out of greed and desire to make profits, while keeping their eyes closed to the underlying realities.

Maybe what's really at stake here is the realisation that if you have it good, wherever you are on this planet, it's very likely at the cost of someone being worked to death in some other corner of the planet. How far are you really willing to lose your living standards to align them with the level of moralistic outrage that you display when faced with these realities? Would you be willing to work the land on a farm or pull levers in a metalworking plant to align better with what you don't want others to be put through? Would you be willing to work until the night every day to build those Wordpress themes for 2 bucks per day, like some Indonesians in a webdev sweatshop in Jakarta? Because making it right for them means they should sell their work at higher prices, meaning everything would become more expensive for you: clothes, website themes, hard disk drives, garbage disposal bags, everything that you buy in a supermarket or online. It's all cheaper thanks to someone being paid close to nothing in some corner of the planet.

Are Instagram thots willing to never post Dubai selfies to fix the injustice done to Dubai workers?
Are iPhone owners willing to never buy a unit because it's built with slave work in Foxconn factories? Doubt.
Etc.

It feels better to virtue signal and say you won't accept what Qatar does, but would you be willing to live on a third or less of your current income to make it right?
'Caring' and signalling is cheap, being willing to take the hit on living standards to align with the values you preach is something that most are not willing to put themselves through. Otherwise they would have done it until now.

k

[iNcog]

whataboutism

[Dolan]

Who made Qatar rich? The industrial countries that bought oil and gas from them.
It all started with the Iraq Petroleum Company (IPC), an Anglo-American consortium that kicked off oil exploitation in Qatar since the late 1940s.
Who gave them all the know-how and technology to be able to even get the gas and oil out and make bank on selling it? The West.
Why, because it was profitable for those Western corporations. Once they reached a level at which they enjoyed some leverage, they nationalised it (in the 70s) and they could start managing it themselves.
If you want to understand why something happens you need to look at the root and see what enabled them and put them in this position.
Because this situation is a combination between them having insane money and the specific cultural values they have. If you enabled the first, then the second started playing an oversized role that you dislike now.

[Dolan]

The same is starting to happen for India, China, every manufacturing powerhouse that the West has put on a path to development and now are starting to flip the bird on you (the West), telling you that you're not in the position to play the global referee anymore.
In the name of diversity quotas in the USA, you made them run your companies, they're funding and helping back their own ethnic group back home with capital you gave them by making them rich, transferring technology and know-how, so that later their countries will tell you that you're no longer needed and you don't have any moral authority. What is more, if you dare criticise them, they're gonna serve you back your own arguments about racism, colonialism etc etc. You have enabled them.

The West deserves this, especially its leftwing camp. This is actually glorious.
They deserve to be put in that state of minority in which they will work long hours in a factory, only to be able to afford the life of the people on whose shoulders they were crying decades ago.
Then we'll see if they have any time or disposition to cry on the shoulders of any oppressed minority in another corner of the world when their life will be just as miserable.
If you're not put in a situation in which you need to struggle to survive, you can afford to have this virtue-signalling lifestyle.

[harcha]

I don't really understand why you are talking to others in this forum as "the West" and exclude yourself from this. Also I don't understand why you are saying these things as if the forum members in particular are responsible of these outcomes and are the ones doing the most virtue-signaling. Aren't you generalizing a bit too excessively?

[Dolan]

Yeah, I thought about that, that's why I made it clear that "you" means the West. Because that's where most of the grandstanding and Twitter outrage comes from. Frankly, I don't see (m)any people outraged by this subject in Romania.
And, well, we're not really considered part of the West, more like a piece of chewing gum stuck on the West's sole.
For the nth time the Dutch government has rejected Romania joining Schengen on the same old invented motives, just because Rutte needs to appease his rightwing coalition partners.
They've been treating us with this kind of arrogance for years. But you know what, tables do turn in history and those that are riding on high horses now will be forced to eat humble pie.

[harcha]

you might benefit from opening twitter less. "twitter is a rat-hole"

[duckzilla]

Yeah, I thought about that, that's why I made it clear that "you" means the West. Because that's where most of the grandstanding and Twitter outrage comes from. Frankly, I don't see (m)any people outraged by this subject in Romania.
And, well, we're not really considered part of the West, more like a piece of chewing gum stuck on the West's sole.
For the nth time the Dutch government has rejected Romania joining Schengen on the same old invented motives, just because Rutte needs to appease his rightwing coalition partners.
They've been treating us with this kind of arrogance for years. But you know what, tables do turn in history and those that are riding on high horses now will be forced to eat humble pie.

Who cares, you are West now. If that bothers you, just join another union with Serbia or Russia.

[iNcog]

The same is starting to happen for India, China, every manufacturing powerhouse that the West has put on a path to development and now are starting to flip the bird on you (the West), telling you that you're not in the position to play the global referee anymore.
In the name of diversity quotas in the USA, you made them run your companies, they're funding and helping back their own ethnic group back home with capital you gave them by making them rich, transferring technology and know-how, so that later their countries will tell you that you're no longer needed and you don't have any moral authority. What is more, if you dare criticise them, they're gonna serve you back your own arguments about racism, colonialism etc etc. You have enabled them.

The West deserves this, especially its leftwing camp. This is actually glorious.
They deserve to be put in that state of minority in which they will work long hours in a factory, only to be able to afford the life of the people on whose shoulders they were crying decades ago.
Then we'll see if they have any time or disposition to cry on the shoulders of any oppressed minority in another corner of the world when their life will be just as miserable.
If you're not put in a situation in which you need to struggle to survive, you can afford to have this virtue-signalling lifestyle.

You're acting like most middle class westerners had a say in how unethically run these big corporations were run. We didn't.

I didn't condone the CIA actions in South America. I didn't condone how Total or Texaco were run. I didn't condone Foxconn's actions. Did I profit from it? Probably a bit. If you gave me a reasonable choice between living my life ethically and having less, I would take the ethical choice. I don't see anything wrong with trying to elevate my understanding on the ethics behind these big businesses in order to have a more informed stance on all of these social issues. If we're being real, these big oil companies could have very easily run the same way as they did in the past 50 years, done everything ethically, and it would have just cut into their profits (not revenue, their profits). They didn't. There is no accountability for lack of ethics and this is what westerners are realizing and now they want change.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being critical today in 2022 and trying to push towards a better standard for all of humanity. Your whataboutism just doesn't really add anything to the conversation. You're free to be a cynical edgelord in your corner, enjoy. The rest of us will try to push towards humanity improving as a whole.

[Dolan]

you might benefit from opening twitter less. "twitter is a rat-hole"

Well, I mean wherever the professional offense takers express their discomfort at 'thing happening on TV'

Who cares, you are West now. If that bothers you, just join another union with Serbia or Russia.

Romania can be geopolitically nonbinary, just like Turkey, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan.
And besides, the West does not see us as the West, case in point being how they keep us outside Schengen in perpetuity for invented reasons, or how they see Poland's political culture as foreign to Western standards

The same is starting to happen for India, China, every manufacturing powerhouse that the West has put on a path to development and now are starting to flip the bird on you (the West), telling you that you're not in the position to play the global referee anymore.
In the name of diversity quotas in the USA, you made them run your companies, they're funding and helping back their own ethnic group back home with capital you gave them by making them rich, transferring technology and know-how, so that later their countries will tell you that you're no longer needed and you don't have any moral authority. What is more, if you dare criticise them, they're gonna serve you back your own arguments about racism, colonialism etc etc. You have enabled them.

The West deserves this, especially its leftwing camp. This is actually glorious.
They deserve to be put in that state of minority in which they will work long hours in a factory, only to be able to afford the life of the people on whose shoulders they were crying decades ago.
Then we'll see if they have any time or disposition to cry on the shoulders of any oppressed minority in another corner of the world when their life will be just as miserable.
If you're not put in a situation in which you need to struggle to survive, you can afford to have this virtue-signalling lifestyle.

You're acting like most middle class westerners had a say in how unethically run these big corporations were run. We didn't.

Idk, there've been so many Westerners coming here and lecturing us how your system is so great at representing people's political will, so open to changing power, so good at holding officials accountable. And now you're telling me it's not. We've been sold some big lies, if so. Why go around the world preaching the gospel of democracy when you know it's far from delivering on its promises. And I don't mean only political leaders who are guilty of this kind of deception, but your academics and think tanks too, who came here to teach us how to become more like you, unable to represent people's will properly.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being critical today in 2022 and trying to push towards a better standard for all of humanity. Your whataboutism just doesn't really add anything to the conversation. You're free to be a cynical edgelord in your corner, enjoy. The rest of us will try to push towards humanity improving as a whole.

That's the hubris and delusion that "you" (the West) are some kind of flag bearer for whatever humanity should be. As if Qatar is not part of humanity, so if they want to become a member of the species, they need to apply for humanity membership at the Western headquarters. Because that's where "the better standard for all of humanity" gets defined. They don't have any say in it, as it's defined elsewhere.

[Dolan]

the bants