AI output indistinguishable from drake and the weeknd music

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Nauru Dolan
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Re: AI output indistinguishable from drake and the weeknd music

Post by Dolan »

Goodspeed wrote: ↑
21 Apr 2023, 07:57
I took a look at this video. What cracked me up was seeing how superficially he declared that ChatGPT has a theory of mind because it could interpret based on textual statements what each protagonist thought. But that's just simply parsing what each interlocutor said at some point, what they witnessed and how this could be assigned to their mind-variable.
You have this tendency to simplify these processes when an AI does it, but to consider it special when a human does it. What you've just described is exactly how we ourselves parse this information and come up with an answer.
Yeah, because theory of mind is more than just keeping records on what's been said.
Two mates walking on the sidewalk, they see a guy with a big mass of frizzy hair and a confused look, they look at each other and start laughing hard. That's theory of mind too and something that an AI couldn't understand unless it was specifically and artificially programmed to read video data, detect facial expressions and behaviour and have some software that adds emotional scores and weights to each facial expression and sequence of gestures and behaviours. Then based on how the situation unfolds, it would be able to construct some kind of emotional logic to this sitution from which it would artificially "read" the emotional context. But it would have no chance if those guys started laughing based on an in-joke, something only they knew and used to make fun of, some joke about that kind of hair or something.
Theory of mind also entails reading someone else's state of mind, realising that they also find funny or sus what you find funny or sus. An AI, again, could never live this, only read it autistically based on a program made to parse gestures and facial expressions as digital DATA. We do this without even thinking, it's done automatically for us by the brain's amygdala, superfast, in just a few tens of milliseconds.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: AI output indistinguishable from drake and the weeknd music

Post by Goodspeed »

Theory of mind is the ability to deduct the mental state of another being. GPT-4 is demonstrably able to do this. About as well as a 9 year old child, apparently. It's not on the level of you or I, but why wouldn't it be in a year or two?
An AI, again, could never live this
Who cares if it's "living" it. What even is that? Who is to say that our ability to "live" things is not just yet another emergent property of a very complex neural network? A lot of the other things we thought made us special have now been proven to be emergent, so why not this?

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2303.12712.pdf
More digestible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqg3aTGNxZ0]
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Nauru Dolan
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Re: AI output indistinguishable from drake and the weeknd music

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No I would still contend that AI does not have theory of mind because it simply does not have a mind.
What it does is a simulation of a theory of mind ability through textual-semantic analysis. And this has been shaped in a way that makes sense to US, to someone that has a theory of mind.
We're programming this software in a way to see it output things that already make sense to us from a theory of mind perspective.
We're basically making theories on how our minds work (on theory of mind for example) and applying them to make this software work in a way that analyses text (and other content) to make deductions that allow it to output something that confirms our theories.
We're effectively reifying our theories by shaping this software to output what we think theory of mind is. Its output is effectively a reification of our theories on "theory of mind". Because, as I said, the software itself is not a mind so there's no theory to make about how its mind could be working, when it's the product of our theories.
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Re: AI output indistinguishable from drake and the weeknd music

Post by harcha »

facts don't care about your feelings, dolan
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: AI output indistinguishable from drake and the weeknd music

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So the AI will always be playing catch-up to our latest theories on "theory of mind", always close to implementing the latest insight in terms of what theory of mind entails in humans. It can't have properties from the human theory of mind that we currently do not fully understand. How could it have developed those?
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Nauru Dolan
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Re: AI output indistinguishable from drake and the weeknd music

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Also there's a lot of hand-waiving when it comes to using this term "emerging properties". People expect that some things they don't fully understand will just magically spring into existence because they're "emergent properties" of some more basic factors.
But if you want to discuss in terms of buzzwords, here's another: embodied cognition. That's the main reason why an AI will never have an actual mind or theory of mind that comes with it. Because it never lived, there's no actual implicit experience that makes it able to make automatic deductions about other people's mental state without being told anything.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: AI output indistinguishable from drake and the weeknd music

Post by Goodspeed »

Also there's a lot of hand-waiving when it comes to using this term "emerging properties". People expect that some things they don't fully understand will just magically spring into existence because they're "emergent properties" of some more basic factors.
Not magically, but because at a certain number of parameters, a neural network becomes complex enough that it's able to form the connections necessary for this property to "emerge".

In fact, every single thing these models are able to do has "emerged magically", in your words, because the programmers did not program them to do anything other than predict language. And yes, that is still what they are doing. It's also what I'm doing right now, as I'm typing this.
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Re: AI output indistinguishable from drake and the weeknd music

Post by Dolan »

Well then why are they training them on datasets, if properties just emerge magically. Why does the content of their 'thinking' look so much like pasted stuff from wiki
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Re: AI output indistinguishable from drake and the weeknd music

Post by Goodspeed »

Dolan wrote: ↑
21 Apr 2023, 14:57
Well then why are they training them on datasets, if properties just emerge magically. Why does the content of their 'thinking' look so much like pasted stuff from wiki
Children develop theory of mind slowly, too. They are trained on datasets. These models train on datasets for the same reason.

It's already better than you at math btw.

I guess you're just going to have to see it. Won't be long before even you won't deny there's something there. And sure, you'll find a definition of intelligence that allows you to still say it's dumb, maybe right up until the moment it replaces you in the economy and beats you at every game you play against it. But deep down you'll know.
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Re: AI output indistinguishable from drake and the weeknd music

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The funniest thing is that when I asked ChatGPT some philosophical questions, it shat out exactly what you'd expect it: a wikipedia-level summary of the "current state of knowledge". A lot of generic bullshit that stands for the current paradigmatic consensus on a topic.
There was zero attempt at actually thinking about the subject, none whatsoever. Nothing new or interesting, no attempt at going beyond "what is currently the consensus".
And it's funny because I remember one reason why Wittgenstein refused to read much from past philosophers is because he didn't want his own insight to be clouded by past thinkers. If you read too much and become like an encyclopaedia of past ideas, you might end up atrophying your own reasoning abilities, killing any chance of you ever developing your own views on things. You become an embodied AI.

Many groundbreaking new perspectives were developed in sheer ignorance of "past developments", without "building on past knowledge". What made them possible was exactly ignoring how people used to think on the subject in the past. Because every historical epoch has its own communication styles, that encompass evertything that you see, from jokes to style of reacting to something, it's the whole zeitgeist. That's not just "knowledge". It's part of living in that particular psycho-cultural bubble.
That's why when you read ideas from a certain historical epoch you notice that there's a clear resonance between disparate cultural acts. Expressionism in the early 20th century Europe resonated with what was happening in politics, the general moral decadence that eventually led to nazism. There's a clear connection between the whole range of things that people experienced in that temporal bubble and the kind of ideas they produced. Ideas are not just "data acquired built on past data", they are traces of a lived existence that produced certain ideas as a product of a struggle between opposing schools of thought, ideological camps, moral positions, political affiliations. You can't separate ideas from the whole ecosystem from which they sprang. Same for language whose meaning is very historically situated, dependent on what happens in society and how that drives the semantic drift of meaning.
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Re: AI output indistinguishable from drake and the weeknd music

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Dolan wrote: ↑
21 Apr 2023, 15:52
The funniest thing is that when I asked ChatGPT some philosophical questions, it shat out exactly what you'd expect it
What's funny about something you expect to happen happening
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Re: AI output indistinguishable from drake and the weeknd music

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Goodspeed wrote: ↑
21 Apr 2023, 15:12
I guess you're just going to have to see it. Won't be long before even you won't deny there's something there. And sure, you'll find a definition of intelligence that allows you to still say it's dumb, maybe right up until the moment it replaces you in the economy and beats you at every game you play against it. But deep down you'll know.
I don't think an AI could feasibly replace my place in the economy
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Re: AI output indistinguishable from drake and the weeknd music

Post by Dolan »

fightinfrenchman wrote: ↑
21 Apr 2023, 16:45
Dolan wrote: ↑
21 Apr 2023, 15:52
The funniest thing is that when I asked ChatGPT some philosophical questions, it shat out exactly what you'd expect it
What's funny about something you expect to happen happening
It's a way of ridiculing something that's supposed to be the final boss of cognitive abilities that will totally replace us blablabla, but it actually just shits out the Chicken McNuggets of reasoning abilities
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Re: AI output indistinguishable from drake and the weeknd music

Post by fightinfrenchman »

I think people go too far in both directions on this, these LLM are really impressive and are improving quickly. That doesn't mean they are literally artificial intelligence that can feel or think
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Re: AI output indistinguishable from drake and the weeknd music

Post by Goodspeed »

Not yet. Also what's the value of that, really?
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Re: AI output indistinguishable from drake and the weeknd music

Post by fightinfrenchman »

I don't think it would be particularly valuable to me but a lot of people feel differently
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Re: AI output indistinguishable from drake and the weeknd music

Post by Goodspeed »

Dolan wrote: ↑
21 Apr 2023, 16:50
fightinfrenchman wrote: ↑
21 Apr 2023, 16:45
Dolan wrote: ↑
21 Apr 2023, 15:52
The funniest thing is that when I asked ChatGPT some philosophical questions, it shat out exactly what you'd expect it
What's funny about something you expect to happen happening
It's a way of ridiculing something that's supposed to be the final boss of cognitive abilities that will totally replace us blablabla, but it actually just shits out the Chicken McNuggets of reasoning abilities
Imagine thinking chatgpt is the final boss
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Re: AI output indistinguishable from drake and the weeknd music

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Food delivery apps have already created the ability for me to have Chicken mcnuggets appear at my house in under 10 minutes. I don't really need it to get more advanced than that
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Re: AI output indistinguishable from drake and the weeknd music

Post by Goodspeed »

Too bad
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Re: AI output indistinguishable from drake and the weeknd music

Post by Goodspeed »

fightinfrenchman wrote: ↑
21 Apr 2023, 17:02
I don't think it would be particularly valuable to me but a lot of people feel differently
Thinking and feeling "wouldn't" be valuable to you?

Did you misunderstand?

They are means to an end. If an AI is able to reach the same results we do without feeling why does it matter that it's unable to have emotions? Emotions are completely unnecessary for an artificial intelligence.
As for thinking, define that. Thinking is the word we use to describe a mental state where we can't immediately come up with an answer. Similarly, chess engines "think" for a bit before deciding on the best move. What makes our thinking different in a way that makes it needed to reach certain answers?

I'd have to think about writing 500 lines of code for a 3d game where one ball chases the player's ball which they can control with the arrow keys and random obstacles spawn on the map. GPT-4 did it too. Did it think? Probably it took a few seconds to let the information pass through its neural network and reach the answer. How is that different to what I'm doing, and if it is meaningfully different why does it matter? We reached the same result.
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Re: AI output indistinguishable from drake and the weeknd music

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Goodspeed wrote: ↑
21 Apr 2023, 17:48
fightinfrenchman wrote: ↑
21 Apr 2023, 17:02
I don't think it would be particularly valuable to me but a lot of people feel differently
Thinking and feeling "wouldn't" be valuable to you?

Did you misunderstand?

They are means to an end. If an AI is able to reach the same results we do without "thinking" or "feeling" why does it matter that it's unable to have emotions? Emotions are completely unnecessary for an artificial intelligence.
I mean the ability to think and feel are important to me, but the ability to create an artificial intelligence capable of these things isn't something I want to do. What is the end that they are a means to
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: AI output indistinguishable from drake and the weeknd music

Post by Goodspeed »

The end is all our needs and wants. We think and feel to reach answers we then use to improve our lives. At work you might think about a problem to reach an answer. The answer is the end.
I'm sure you can think of a few situations where having emotions helps.
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Re: AI output indistinguishable from drake and the weeknd music

Post by Goodspeed »

I'm not saying an AI would need to think or feel. I'm saying it doesn't need to. It can reach the same answers we do without "thinking" in the way we do. And who knows what's going on in that neural network, maybe it is "thinking"
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Re: AI output indistinguishable from drake and the weeknd music

Post by Goodspeed »

Goodspeed wrote: ↑
21 Apr 2023, 17:03
Dolan wrote: ↑
21 Apr 2023, 16:50
Show hidden quotes
It's a way of ridiculing something that's supposed to be the final boss of cognitive abilities that will totally replace us blablabla, but it actually just shits out the Chicken McNuggets of reasoning abilities
Imagine thinking chatgpt is the final boss
To be clear, the progress right now is so rapid that ChatGPT is already old. The new OpenAI model, GPT-4, is superior in fundamental ways and is showing the first signs of a real AGI. You can't interact with it for free, and also the final version will be dumbed down for safety (no, not the kind of safety where we worry it will literally kill all of us, the kind of safety where we don't want it to convince people to kill themselves etc). The paper, "Sparks of AGI", that I linked earlier, is considered a huge deal in the field for a reason. And of course this isn't the final boss either. It will almost certainly keep improving at a pace only insiders can really keep up with.

Here's the paper again: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2303.12712.pdf
And the youtube video that shows some of the examples from the paper https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqg3aTGNxZ0]

This video all of humanity needs to watch ASAP https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoVJKj8lcNQ

It's hard to overstate this shit guys
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Re: AI output indistinguishable from drake and the weeknd music

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Goodspeed wrote: ↑
21 Apr 2023, 18:06
To be clear, the progress right now is so rapid that ChatGPT is already old. The new OpenAI model, GPT-4, is superior in fundamental ways and is showing the first signs of a real AGI. You can't interact with it for free, and also the final version will be dumbed down for safety (no, not the kind of safety where we worry it will literally kill all of us, the kind of safety where we don't want it to convince people to kill themselves etc).
The problem with this is that if you're able to actually create something that could be considered an artificial intelligence it would be morally wrong to prevent it from saying what it really "thinks."
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