England maybe leave EU june 23.

[Riotcoke]

China also have a huge property bubble ready to burst, so their economy isn't stable.

[Dolan]

@spanky4ever

They don't need to invest in research much, if they can just steal it for free from foreign companies. So of course everything looks so much easier, when most of those things are stolen from other countries.

For example, of course they are such a big player in wind turbine technology. One of their companies has already been found guilty of technological espionage:

https://money.cnn.com/2018/01/25/techno ... tml?iid=EL

That's what "Chinese innovation" looks like. Theft.

[spanky4ever]

@spanky4ever

They don't need to invest in research much, if they can just steal it for free from foreign companies. So of course everything looks so much easier, when most of those things are stolen from other countries.

For example, of course they are such a big player in wind turbine technology. One of their companies has already been found guilty of technological espionage:

https://money.cnn.com/2018/01/25/techno ... tml?iid=EL

That's what "Chinese innovation" looks like. Theft.

Who invented the wheel, or the electricity, or the nuclear energy/ bomb, or the submarine, or anything significant like penicillin and antibiotics? What would you expect, if you where CEO from Apple, having your manufacturing plant in China?
And btw, who have the best spying net in the world? (USA not?)
Who invented genes? God, or some pharmaceutical company in the USA?

[Dolan]

I don't even understand your point. What does this even mean?

Who invented genes? God, or some pharmaceutical company in the USA?

Do you mean that if you developed a certain technique of gene editing (like CRISPR), then you have no intellectual property rights over that innovation, because you didn't "invent genes"? What is this kindergarten-level of argumentation, lol.

China copies and clones products made by companies that have no manufacturing plants in their country either. Have you seen those pictures I posted before? Do you think Dolce and Gabbana, Microsoft or Scottish whisky makers have manufacturing plants in China? Do you think that's how their copyrighted products get cloned? No, Chinese companies just copy everything from the design of those products made by D&G, Microsoft, etc, and sell the clones on their market, profiting from people's lack of information and access to original products.

Imagine you created a product, you designed everything about it, the logo, the packaging, the shape, colours, recipe. You put a lot of work into creating something unique and original, it took you months to work on that product and years to make it successful. Then a Chinese company clones every part of your product without any investment in research or product design and just sells it for 10% of your price.

Then the Chinese government comes knocking on your door saying they want you to open your market, because they have this great and grand project of mutual trade. They send those cheaper clones of your product on your market and drive you out of business. So your original idea and business are kaput, because you don't see any problem with intellectual property theft.

I can't come up with an easier, self-evident way to explain this...

[duckzilla]

There are 2 things that make China superior
1. they plan for the long run, and not like some big corporations that plan for only 3 months at the time.
2. They spend a lot of money into researching and trying to be better, while big corporations do not, instead they buy small businesses that have made progress because they want to develop it or KILL it.

Let's face it, some corporations that grow big enough, seek monopoly and are not really spending money into research and expanding. The short term payout to shareholders and CEOs just are not a good business model, in the long run
That's why China is going to overrun western companies, and not only iPhone and Samsung.
Its the short term greed that is the enemy and not China.

Where exactly do you get these information? Did you interview Xi Jinping and the rest of the CPC elite? And even if you interviewed them, what do you really think is their subjective interest here?

Many of the things you mention appear as a combination of plain chinese propaganda and western anxieties. Interestingly, your focus on "long run planning" and "trying to be better" fits nearly perfectly to how the USSR was seen by western left wing radicals which wanted to see an alternative system to work. It also fits to Germany in the mid-1930s. In both of these historic examples you can see where crony capitalism and intransparent political structures lead to. Both systems were economically unsustainable in the long run even though they produced some of the most brilliant scientific research and had their countries fully industrialized.

I share your view that big corporations are not perfect and I believe that western societies should rethink what enterprises and corporations actually should be like. But you are showing a nearly submissive and blind trust towards as a country and system that you admittedly do not know. That is just not convincing.

I strongly recommend not to "count your chickens before they are hatched" with regard to China. What we just saw were 25 years of strong growth, which surely is nice, but should not be extrapolated into a bright future. We cannot see yet where all this ends up. Before praising the new overlord, one should stay calm, observe, and analyze what exactly is happening and don't be dazzled by illusions.

[princeofcarthage]

I don't know what to say, I have seen first hand corporations like Google, Facebook, Apple investing billions and billions of dollar into research and innovation so that they stay relevant in future.

[spanky4ever]

I don't know what to say, I have seen first hand corporations like Google, Facebook, Apple investing billions and billions of dollar into research and innovation so that they stay relevant in future.

That is true, and I do not speak of ALL corporations. Surely there are tons of successes. But its also a fact that none of the corporations you mention above, pay much in taxes. Very little in fact

[spanky4ever]

@duckzilla say

Many of the things you mention appear as a combination of plain Chinese propaganda and western anxieties. Interestingly, your focus on "long run planning" and "trying to be better" fits nearly perfectly to how the USSR was seen by western left wing radicals which wanted to see an alternative system to work.

It's true that there has never been economic growth like in the previous Soviet Union, and the growth we see in present China over the past 30 years.
I do think Chinas growth is more sustainable than former Ussr because the economy is more a mix of Communism and straight out Capitalism.
What could be a problem in China, is the huge inequality that this mixed model has resulted in. This could lead to serious unrest, especially if there needs to be cut in the economy, and if that should result in a worse economy among the poorest ppl, the farmers, unemployment among factory workers, etc.

Btw, same unrest as we see in so many western countries now, where Brexit is ONE result. the yellow west is another, and the election of Trump, and the change in the Democrats policies with moving much farther to the left.
Unrest in China could be much larger in scale, and much more brutal, because there is no arena for diplomacy and finding some "middle ground"
there

[Horsemen]

@duckzilla say

Many of the things you mention appear as a combination of plain Chinese propaganda and western anxieties. Interestingly, your focus on "long run planning" and "trying to be better" fits nearly perfectly to how the USSR was seen by western left wing radicals which wanted to see an alternative system to work.

It's true that there has never been economic growth like in the previous Soviet Union, and the growth we see in present China over the past 30 years.
I do think Chinas growth is more sustainable than former Ussr because the economy is more a mix of Communism and straight out Capitalism.
What could be a problem in China, is the huge inequality that this mixed model has resulted in. This could lead to serious unrest, especially if there needs to be cut in the economy, and if that should result in a worse economy among the poorest ppl, the farmers, unemployment among factory workers, etc.

Btw, same unrest as we see in so many western countries now, where Brexit is ONE result. the yellow west is another, and the election of Trump, and the change in the Democrats policies with moving much farther to the left.
Unrest in China could be much larger in scale, and much more brutal, because there is no arena for diplomacy and finding some "middle ground"
there

Your analysis couldn’t be more wrong. China sits on a ballooning debt and real estate bubble partly fuelled by an unregulated shadow-banking system. It’s also pretty well-known that China’s GDP figures are overstated and in many ways massaged by Communist party officials for propaganda purposes. And apart from Huawei, it’s tough to find Chinese firms that are truly world-class and innovative. China has spent decades pouring billions of dollars of funds into industries such as automotives, semiconductors, and computing but these efforts have largely failed to create a local champion capable of taking on overseas competitors. Many domestic Chinese companies are only prosperous because of the Chinese government’s protectionist policies, without which a lot of domestic Chinese firms probably wouldn’t exist. Your picture of ‘sustainable’ growth and ‘long-term’ innovation is just completely false.

[Dolan]

Yep, it's a well-known fact that China's GDP growth numbers are "cooked" by at least 2-3 percentages. And a significant part of the rest of growth was fueled by huge debt (and IP theft).
One other thing that has made the Chinese economy so competitive has been their lack of any environmental standards. Have you seen footage from Chinese big cities? Have you noticed that lots of people wear pollution masks? https://www.travelchinacheaper.com/best ... ers-expats
Well now you should understand why they're one of the top polluters of the world and why their products are so cheap.

[Dolan]

What's gonna be really interesting to watch for is whether Northern Ireland will get a border poll after a no-deal Brexit and how fast could Ireland reunification take place. Considering that in 2022 the Republic of Ireland will celebrate the centary of their independence, I imagine some Irish Republicans would be strongly motivated to achieve reunification in just a few years.

And what with a Boris Johnson premiereship becoming more likely, I wonder how fast things will set into motion for Irish reunification.

Same for Scotland independence, but that is a lot more difficult to achieve.

[pecelot]

1200 posts in and we still can't have a proper thread name, am I literally the only one triggered by that

[spanky4ever]

@duckzilla say

Many of the things you mention appear as a combination of plain Chinese propaganda and western anxieties. Interestingly, your focus on "long run planning" and "trying to be better" fits nearly perfectly to how the USSR was seen by western left wing radicals which wanted to see an alternative system to work.

It's true that there has never been economic growth like in the previous Soviet Union, and the growth we see in present China over the past 30 years.
I do think Chinas growth is more sustainable than former Ussr because the economy is more a mix of Communism and straight out Capitalism.
What could be a problem in China, is the huge inequality that this mixed model has resulted in. This could lead to serious unrest, especially if there needs to be cut in the economy, and if that should result in a worse economy among the poorest ppl, the farmers, unemployment among factory workers, etc.

Btw, same unrest as we see in so many western countries now, where Brexit is ONE result. the yellow west is another, and the election of Trump, and the change in the Democrats policies with moving much farther to the left.
Unrest in China could be much larger in scale, and much more brutal, because there is no arena for diplomacy and finding some "middle ground"
there

Your analysis couldn’t be more wrong. China sits on a ballooning debt and real estate bubble partly fuelled by an unregulated shadow-banking system. It’s also pretty well-known that China’s GDP figures are overstated and in many ways massaged by Communist party officials for propaganda purposes. And apart from Huawei, it’s tough to find Chinese firms that are truly world-class and innovative. China has spent decades pouring billions of dollars of funds into industries such as automotives, semiconductors, and computing but these efforts have largely failed to create a local champion capable of taking on overseas competitors. Many domestic Chinese companies are only prosperous because of the Chinese government’s protectionist policies, without which a lot of domestic Chinese firms probably wouldn’t exist. Your picture of ‘sustainable’ growth and ‘long-term’ innovation is just completely false.

Debt per capita seems pretty small, compared to other countries. (even if you should triple it, because of Dark money)

You say its tough to find any Chinese company that is world class innovative? I mentioned Volvo above, they have improved greatly since China bought them over. I do not have a global overlook of what and who, and I would be surprised if you have either I can only say that the biggest part of what you buy, other than house and food, are made in China

I will post this link, from Professor in economics Richard Wolff, who give a good overlook, and review on how China grew so fast, and big over a short amount of time. Could b you are interested, or maybe you know better, than the professor
https://youtu.be/Cw8SvK0E5dI

[Horsemen]

@spanky4ever

External debt =/= total debt = / = government debt

No one in the West buys cars from Volvo's Chinese parent, I wonder why.

[fightinfrenchman]

No one in the West buys cars from Volvo's Chinese parent, I wonder why.

I do, all the time

[spanky4ever]

@spanky4ever

External debt =/= total debt = / = government debt

No one in the West buys cars from Volvo's Chinese parent, I wonder why.

Chinese Volvo is selling like nothing before, dude And if you want to separate cars that don't have Chinese parts, and buy those? Good luck in finding a car. Keep it real

[spanky4ever]

@spanky4ever

External debt =/= total debt = / = government debt

No one in the West buys cars from Volvo's Chinese parent, I wonder why.

I posted this video, in response to your post. What is your take on it? did you get some info you did not have before? If you watched it, what is wrong with Professor Wolffs review? in your opinion

[Horsemen]

Sorry spanky as much as I appreciate our discussion I'm just not willing to watch a half-an-hour video on this subject.

[spanky4ever]

Sorry spanky as much as I appreciate our discussion I'm just not willing to watch a half-an-hour video on this subject.

You are not willing to look at other angels, or info that does not fit your point of views? Well, that should make your arguments even dumber Everything that is not fitting your point of view, are fake I guess. But I will tell you then, I will not bother having any conversation with a dumb nob, that do not want to broaden their knowledge, because that is just a waste of time.

[fightinfrenchman]

Sorry spanky as much as I appreciate our discussion I'm just not willing to watch a half-an-hour video on this subject.

You live in the UK, why aren't you coming to the LAN tourney?

[Horsemen]

Sorry spanky as much as I appreciate our discussion I'm just not willing to watch a half-an-hour video on this subject.

You live in the UK, why aren't you coming to the LAN tourney?

Is the LAN tourney in the UK?

[fightinfrenchman]

Sorry spanky as much as I appreciate our discussion I'm just not willing to watch a half-an-hour video on this subject.

You live in the UK, why aren't you coming to the LAN tourney?

Is the LAN tourney in the UK?

Yesh

[Riotcoke]

Sorry spanky as much as I appreciate our discussion I'm just not willing to watch a half-an-hour video on this subject.

You live in the UK, why aren't you coming to the LAN tourney?

Is the LAN tourney in the UK?

Yes Manchester.

[fightinfrenchman]

Show hidden quotes

Sorry spanky as much as I appreciate our discussion I'm just not willing to watch a half-an-hour video on this subject.

You live in the UK, why aren't you coming to the LAN tourney?

Is the LAN tourney in the UK?

Yes Manchester.

Are you completely human?

[Riotcoke]

Show hidden quotes

Sorry spanky as much as I appreciate our discussion I'm just not willing to watch a half-an-hour video on this subject.

You live in the UK, why aren't you coming to the LAN tourney?

Is the LAN tourney in the UK?

Yes Manchester.

Are you completely human?

Yes!