England maybe leave EU june 23.

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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Horsemen wrote:
fightinfrenchman wrote:
Horsemen wrote:socialism is a terrorist ideology
What does this even mean
It achieves political aims by means of unsanctioned violence
What makes it unsanctioned
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by Horsemen »

fightinfrenchman wrote:
Horsemen wrote:
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It achieves political aims by means of unsanctioned violence
What makes it unsanctioned
It overrides human rights
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by Dolan »

Rights are a political fiction anyways.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by Horsemen »

Dolan wrote:Rights are a political fiction anyways.
That's what a socialist would say
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by Amsel_ »

Dolan wrote:Rights are a political fiction anyways.
That's what an EU supporter would say
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Horsemen wrote:
Dolan wrote:Rights are a political fiction anyways.
That's what a socialist would say
Would you rather your country be part of the EU or part of Toon World?
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by Dolan »

Horsemen wrote:
Dolan wrote:Rights are a political fiction anyways.
That's what a socialist would say
Who gave you rights and who can enforce them?
If someone from the Middle East moved to London, they would suddenly have more rights.
Magical, innit?
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

Horsemen wrote:What terrifies me the most about the state of this country is how c. 40% of voters at the last election willingly voted for a party whose current leadership has openly endorsed political oppression and terrorism. At the moment we easily have the most unethical and morally depraved leadership in the Labour party in history - and yet scarily people are just fine with this and willing to let these people rise to power. There is no historical precedent for this in this country.
Could you be more specific in your claims, please? Could you be specific in what terrible arrangements Corbyn wants to see happen if elected? I am very curious to know, and you could educate me on this.

The dichotomy, socialism is terrible, and capitalism is all good, is very narrow-minded, imo :!:
I guess you think that "socialism" is plain and simple, and there is only one way to define it? I also suppose you think that all the countries that you would define as having a capitalistic core, are all different, and diversified. If so, then you are really dumbing down the conversation.

In fact, most countries are a blend of socialistic arrangement and capitalistic ones. Countries are different in their blend though.

One example, from the USA (that you seem to idealize), has the by far, largest socialistic organization, of all time, namely the military.
Other examples, budgets for education, building infrastructure, fire department, and the list goes on and on.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by lejend »

Dolan wrote:Who gave you rights and who can enforce them?
God.
If someone from the Middle East moved to London, they would suddenly have more rights.
All human beings are created free and equal in dignity and rights. Whether or not their rights are recognized by the government, that's what varies from place to place.

If someone from the Middle East moved to London, he wouldn't gain any new rights, but more of the rights which he always possessed as a human being would be recognized by the government.
Genesis 1:27

So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Declaration of Independence

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Or in the words of abolitionist Frederick Douglass:

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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by Dolan »

lejend wrote: God
Which one of them?
If someone from the Middle East moved to London, he wouldn't gain any new rights, but more of the rights which he always possessed as a human being would be recognized by the government.
I dunno about that. Are you claiming that whatever laws exist in Saudi Arabia or Bahrain do not reflect the rights people think they should have? Their laws are based on Muslim faith, that they all share.
And they even went so far as to adopt their own version of a declaration of human rights (the Cairo one). So what people think are their rights definitely seems to vary, depending on culture.
All human beings are created free and equal in dignity and rights. Whether or not their rights are recognized by the government, that's what varies from place to place.
Why do people like you hate the government so much? Is the government Satan's creation? It's created, maintained and upheld by the same "people" that populists that support and vote Trump like so much to praise.
The government wasn't created by aliens from area 51 or members of a masonic, occult, Jewish cabal.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by lejend »

Dolan wrote:Which one of them?
Notice I said 'God', not 'a god.' There's only one God, which is the name we give to the Uncreated Creator, the Ground of Being, of which there can be only one, by definition.

God, gods, and fairies | David Bentley Hart
I dunno about that. Are you claiming that whatever laws exist in Saudi Arabia or Bahrain do not reflect the rights people think they should have? Their laws are based on Muslim faith, that they all share.
And they even went so far as to adopt their own version of a declaration of human rights (the Cairo one). So what people think are their rights definitely seems to vary, depending on culture.
Okay, but if some people deny the existence of the right to life, for example, it doesn't follow from this that there is no right to life, it just means the people in question are in error. Does the existence of flat-earthers mean the Earth isn't round?

God's will exists regardless of whether human beings conform to it.
Why do people like you hate the government so much? Is the government Satan's creation? It's created, maintained and upheld by the same "people" that populists that support and vote Trump like so much to praise.
The government wasn't created by aliens from area 51 or members of a masonic, occult, Jewish cabal.
More often than not, the government is indistinguishable from an armed gang, existing mainly to benefit a few people at the expense of everyone else. But reason and revelation both tell us that men aren't born with saddles on their backs to be ridden by a privileged few. We're all children of Adam and Eve and no child has the authority to domineer over another. Therefore, government of the people must be by the people and for the people. All the people, down to every last individual; even 99.9% of the population lack the authority to violate one individual's rights, since each individual is made in God's image and has infinite worth.

Unfortunately, you'd be hard pressed to find one government that respects the people's rights. Humans are by nature evil and strongly inclined to degrade and demean themselves and other people, often without realizing it. Since no one can be trusted with power, there need to be strong safeguards in place to limit the government's powers and ensure that it's as small and as weak as possible.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by occamslightsaber »

@lejend Did you go to a seminary school? You're like the resident minister for ESOC.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by duckzilla »

lejend wrote:Humans by nature are evil
By nature, evil does not exist as a category for behavior.

Your entire argument rests on one simple but crucial assumption: the species homo sapiens is unique and not just one of a large variety of specialized animals roaming the planet. As long as this assumption holds (or is widely believed to hold), you can easily construct belief systems with gods, good and evil, etc. on top of it. The only explanation for being a unique species is the existence of god(s).
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by Amsel_ »

I view the state as an emergent entity which encapsulates every facet its specific people-group and the dialectical developments therein. Any appearance of difference in goals or essence is ultimately illusory, however, from lower levels of analysis it is possible to identify practical differences. It is a naturally out springing creation which exists to fulfill the needs of the people. However, in accomplishing this objective, it necessarily must use force, and repression of actions that would have otherwise occurred. This gives the state a peculiar nature in that it must limit actions ("repress") in order to accomplish things, including goals, goals of its own and/or the people.

The primary goal of the people is to secure their own rights; other goals are luxuries relative to this. This means that the primary goal of the state, in order to maintain legitimacy, should be to protect the rights of its own people. However, the state's true primary goal is to ensure its own existence, and fulfilling this need of the people is just a means of attaining this end. This notion of goals and the need for repression is important to establish. Because now we can distinguish between rights and freedom. Level of freedom can be determined by the amount of repression the state is willing to engage in in order to fulfill its own goals (not the goals of the people). Infringing on freedom is "bad," but not fatal. However, an attack on the rights of man by the state is a direct attack on that state's own legitimacy. When the state does infringe on rights it resigns a portion of its authority over to thuggery. An ideal state is one with no thuggery; it is purely legitimate; it is also purely free, because it operates at a level in which its goals are aligned entirely with those of the people.

In this schema, it might be tempting to define a "right" merely as something the state must preserve, and loses legitimacy if it fails to do so. However, if the state was created to defend rights, rights must logically pre-date the state. This is indicative of a seemingly primordial source of rights. (though a codevelopmental relationship between rights and the state would not make any practical difference) And because they develop naturally into things such as the state, they are understood by (perhaps all?) humans on an unconscious level. Since there is no science known to me which is able to analyze these unmanifested primordial things, we have to rely on examination of rights in practice, in their manifested state. One is theoretically able to infer rights by observation of natural law, as well as human history. It is through this process that the founders of the United States of America determined the various rights recognized within the government they established.

But that's just like my opinion man.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by Amsel_ »

duckzilla wrote:
lejend wrote:Humans by nature are evil
By nature, evil does not exist as a category for behavior.

Your entire argument rests on one simple but crucial assumption: the species homo sapiens is unique and not just one of a large variety of specialized animals roaming the planet. As long as this assumption holds (or is widely believed to hold), you can easily construct belief systems with gods, good and evil, etc. on top of it. The only explanation for being a unique species is the existence of god(s).
I think you underestimate the seemingly miraculous nature of human consciousness, and how we're able to experience things rather than just move around like unconscious machines. But I do agree with you, it is incorrect to call humans evil by nature. It's interesting how the heights of Christian accomplishment took place during the absences of this Biblical concept; this concept which is the most utterly toxic proposition of Christian slave-morality.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

the latest update, supreme court rules that closing parliament, was illegal, and now Corbyn calls for the PM to resign.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by Dolan »

This gon be fun.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by Horsemen »

iwillspankyou wrote:the latest update, supreme court rules that closing parliament, was illegal, and now Corbyn calls for the PM to resign.
Corbyn will never become PM
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by fightinfrenchman »

@Horsemen I don't even like him but I hope he does just to annoy you tbh
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

Horsemen wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:the latest update, supreme court rules that closing parliament, was illegal, and now Corbyn calls for the PM to resign.
Corbyn will never become PM
Back to the one-liners, are we not :P I was so looking forward to your answer on my post above (Sept 23rd). With great interest tbh, but sadly I guess you have no answer :?:
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by Horsemen »

iwillspankyou wrote:
Horsemen wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:the latest update, supreme court rules that closing parliament, was illegal, and now Corbyn calls for the PM to resign.
Corbyn will never become PM
Back to the one-liners, are we not :P I was so looking forward to your answer on my post above (Sept 23rd). With great interest tbh, but sadly I guess you have no answer :?:
I’d like to answer but am short of time right now, sorry
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by Goodspeed »

Is it starting to look like brexit isn't going to happen to anyone else?
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Goodspeed wrote:Is it starting to look like brexit isn't going to happen to anyone else?
Isn't there a hard date? I haven't really been following, I just saw the nonsensical Irish border idea Johnson proposed
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by Goodspeed »

They'll just ask to postpone again

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