England maybe leave EU june 23.

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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by evilcheadar »

Jerom wrote:
umeu wrote:Enough of what, though?

There's alot of things they never voted for, they never voted to be in the UK either. There won't be more democracy in the UK by leaving, nor will there be less. All I hear is alot of strawmen to cover up the xenophobia and hate that drives this brexit.

The brexit is the ultimate cover up for xenophobe people. "Its better for us, the eu costs too much, we should take back power" while they actually just hate immigrants.

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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

Jerom wrote:It's not a consequence of that fact... I dont even see the correlation. The reason people are voting to leave is because they hate foreigners and don't understand the economical implications of the EU and the result of leaving, nor do they understand how the EU makes decisions and how they actually affect those decisions theirselves.


The same trend that made Trump AND SAnders popular in USA, is the same trend that are saying NO to EU.
The establishment went 3 steps to far. The working and middle class in UK and USA are struggling, while the rich are getting richer. As I said, I dont know how this is in your country, but its a fact for UK workers.
The same is a reality for a great part of Denmark. No fish, and the industry moved to get cheaper labor. You can reject the facts, but you will live it all the same :huh:
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by Dolan »

iwillspankyou wrote:The EU has worked fine for the establishment and finance industry - but turned out very bad for ordinary working class.

THat's simply not true. Lots of people in Spain can tell you that once Romania joined the EU, they could use so much cheap labour in agriculture and the ROmanians were not unhappy with the result. They were making a lot less before, anyways. So, they couldn't really expect to earn as much as a native Spanish citizen. Same for the UK, where Romanian cheap labour was used in their agricultural bussineses.

Same for IT/software development. Just check the facts. One of the reasons why Britons wanted out of the EU was the famed Polish worker invasion, which "took their jobs" in construction work. Why do you think all those Polish people flocked to the UK to work there? Because it was bad for them? No, because freedom of movement applies to labour too, so you are free to find the best working conditions for you in other countries.

So the EU common market helped milions of people make a lot more money by working in other countries than their own. :idea:
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by momuuu »

iwillspankyou wrote:
Jerom wrote:It's not a consequence of that fact... I dont even see the correlation. The reason people are voting to leave is because they hate foreigners and don't understand the economical implications of the EU and the result of leaving, nor do they understand how the EU makes decisions and how they actually affect those decisions theirselves.


The same trend that made Trump AND SAnders popular in USA, is the same trend that are saying NO to EU.
The establishment went 3 steps to far. The working and middle class in UK and USA are struggling, while the rich are getting richer. As I said, I dont know how this is in your country, but its a fact for UK workers.
The same is a reality for a great part of Denmark. No fish, and the industry moved to get cheaper labor. You can reject the facts, but you will live it all the same :huh:

There's literally no way the USA can be compared to the situation in Europe :/
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by pecelot »

tldr lol, dem polls doe XD
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

Dolan wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:The EU has worked fine for the establishment and finance industry - but turned out very bad for ordinary working class.

THat's simply not true. Lots of people in Spain can tell you that once Romania joined the EU, they could use so much cheap labour in agriculture and the ROmanians were not unhappy with the result. They were making a lot less before, anyways. So, they couldn't really expect to earn as much as a native Spanish citizen. Same for the UK, where Romanian cheap labour was used in their agricultural bussineses.

Same for IT/software development. Just check the facts. One of the reasons why Britons wanted out of the EU was the famed Polish worker invasion, which "took their jobs" in construction work. Why do you think all those Polish people flocked to the UK to work there? Because it was bad for them? No, because freedom of movement applies to labour too, so you are free to find the best working conditions for you in other countries.


This argument was about UK. I said I dont know about most of EU countries. I know about Denmark though cos I have family there - and the north for Jylland and the whole coast of Jylland are struggling very hard.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

Jerom wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:
Jerom wrote:It's not a consequence of that fact... I dont even see the correlation. The reason people are voting to leave is because they hate foreigners and don't understand the economical implications of the EU and the result of leaving, nor do they understand how the EU makes decisions and how they actually affect those decisions theirselves.


The same trend that made Trump AND SAnders popular in USA, is the same trend that are saying NO to EU.
The establishment went 3 steps to far. The working and middle class in UK and USA are struggling, while the rich are getting richer. As I said, I dont know how this is in your country, but its a fact for UK workers.
The same is a reality for a great part of Denmark. No fish, and the industry moved to get cheaper labor. You can reject the facts, but you will live it all the same :huh:

There's literally no way the USA can be compared to the situation in Europe :/


I said UK - so maybe the working class and the fishing industry got rekt to hard on the EU alther :idea:
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by momuuu »

iwillspankyou wrote:
Jerom wrote:
Show hidden quotes

There's literally no way the USA can be compared to the situation in Europe :/


I said UK :idea:

The UK is included in the situation in Europe.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by deleted_user0 »

Dolan wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:The EU has worked fine for the establishment and finance industry - but turned out very bad for ordinary working class.

THat's simply not true. Lots of people in Spain can tell you that once Romania joined the EU, they could use so much cheap labour in agriculture and the ROmanians were not unhappy with the result. They were making a lot less before, anyways. So, they couldn't really expect to earn as much as a native Spanish citizen. Same for the UK, where Romanian cheap labour was used in their agricultural bussineses.

Same for IT/software development. Just check the facts. One of the reasons why Britons wanted out of the EU was the famed Polish worker invasion, which "took their jobs" in construction work. Why do you think all those Polish people flocked to the UK to work there? Because it was bad for them? No, because freedom of movement applies to labour too, so you are free to find the best working conditions for you in other countries.

So the EU common market helped milions of people make a lot more money by working in other countries than their own. :idea:


do you mean there are people worse off in the world than the british working class?!!? are you asking them to look at this from a perspective different than their own?!?

how dare you dolan...
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by evilcheadar »

I keep thinking of the EU as a bad homeowners association though thish is probably not totally accurate.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by Dolan »

umeu wrote:do you mean there are people worse off in the world than the british working class?!!? are you asking them to look at this from a perspective different than their own?!?

how dare you dolan...

Well, it's actually weird because in the West almost no native (young) citizen of a developed country would hope or aspire to become a bricklayer or an agricultural worker. Everyone wants to work in high-tech jobs, which pay a lot, everyone wants high-status jobs, well-paid jobs which require no physical labour. So, who is left to do all that physical labour? This is the void that Eastern European workers have filled in many countries like Spain, the UK, France. Also Germany and France were more than happy to receive Romanian doctors and medical staff, because they didn't have enough medical staff in their system to treat their patients.

And, of course, those who for some reason are disgruntled, because they are unemployed or are socially marginalised will believe the nationalist/eurosceptic/antiglobalist/neo-nazi propaganda. These people would vote for Front National in France, Partij voor de Vrijheid in the Netherlands, UKIP in the UK, etc.

If those EU citizens who came from Eastern Europe took those jobs it must be because local workers demanded too high salaries for the same work. It was just the effect of pure competition (inside the EU). But imagine what it would mean to compete with Indians who would work for 10% of what you make. That would be real competition. THe truth is Europe has closed itself off in a cocoon of protectionism. It's a common market which benefits its citizens as long as they buy from the EU and export as much as possible outside the EU.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by momuuu »

Dolan wrote:
umeu wrote:do you mean there are people worse off in the world than the british working class?!!? are you asking them to look at this from a perspective different than their own?!?

how dare you dolan...

Well, it's actually weird because in the West almost no native (young) citizen of a developed country would hope or aspire to become a bricklayer or an agricultural worker. Everyone wants to work in high-tech jobs, which pay a lot, everyone wants high-status jobs, well-paid jobs which require no physical labour. So, who is left to do all that physical labour? This is the void that Eastern European workers have filled in many countries like Spain, the UK, France. Also Germany and France were more than happy to receive Romanian doctors and medical staff, because they didn't have enough medical staff in their system to treat their patients.

And, of course, those who for some reason are disgruntled, because they are unemployed or are socially marginalised will believe the nationalist/eurosceptic/antiglobalist/neo-nazi propaganda. These people would vote for Front National in France, Partij voor de Vrijheid in the Netherlands, UKIP in the UK, etc.

If those EU citizens who came from Eastern Europe took those jobs it must be because local workers demanded too high salaries for the same work. It was just the effect of pure competition (inside the EU). But imagine what it would mean to compete with Indians who would work for 10% of what you make. That would be real competition. THe truth is Europe has closed itself off in a cocoon of protectionism. It's a common market which benefits its citizens as long as they buy from the EU and export as much as possible outside the EU.

Shameful :(
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by 91 »

Google:
"What is the EU?" is the second top UK question on the EU since the #EURefResults were officially announced "

Note that this is AFTER they voted :p
https://mobile.twitter.com/GoogleTrends ... wsrc%5Etfw
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by momuuu »

Because why vote with knowledge? It's much more fun just taking a wild guess when it comes to the future of your country.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by Dolan »

iNcog wrote:ahhhhhhh dogs are so cute

i like to also take my beagle in my arms, it's hilarious how little fucks she gives.

https://raid.lol/nehlS6tl
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

@Jerom said:
The UK is included in the situation in Europe.

That is a pretty top - down position you take there. The UK working class does not feel the same.
UK had great growth, but the wealth did not go to the workers, but to the very top. So its pretty much the same situations you have in USA. And remembering your arguments there - you where strongly in favor of the common ppl.
You should read some statistics - and you will find the same trends as in USA.
I think this is the result of the gap between the "have" and "the have not" got go big.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by deleted_user0 »

The wealth didn't go to the workers in the UK before the EU either... The worker has been screwed over since the industrial revolution in the UK and the middle class actually was strongest and most democratic during the british middle ages.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by deleted_user0 »

iwillspankyou wrote:@Jerom said:
The UK is included in the situation in Europe.

That is a pretty top - down position you take there. The UK working class does not feel the same.
UK had great growth, but the wealth did not go to the workers, but to the very top. So its pretty much the same situations you have in USA. And remembering your arguments there - you where strongly in favor of the common ppl.
You should read some statistics - and you will find the same trends as in USA.
I think this is the result of the gap between the "have" and "the have not" got go big.


If that's true, then why don't most people bring this up as the main argument? instead they are bringing up immigration. In a sense it's indeed about the have and the have nots, and the people who have are now saying they don't want a little less, so that others can have alot more.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

@Dolan said:
Same for IT/software development. Just check the facts. One of the reasons why Britons wanted out of the EU was the famed Polish worker invasion, which "took their jobs" in construction work. Why do you think all those Polish people flocked to the UK to work there? Because it was bad for them? No, because freedom of movement applies to labour too, so you are free to find the best working conditions for you in other countries.


There will always be cheep labor in another country. I guess you think that the Big Companies should go there? This opinion is pretty much the ruin for EU and the taking over by BIG CORP. Lets get the TTIP and give it all up to Multinational companies.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

@Umeu said:
If that's true, then why don't most people bring this up as the main argument? instead they are bringing up immigration.


1. it is true - very much so in UK!
2. why do you think Trump is popular in USA? (the mexicans are the scapegoat there)
3. why do you think right wing are on the rice in EU?

Imo USA just took it a step further than EU. But UK was not far behind USA in economic inequality. Google it :idea:
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by deleted_user0 »

I don't have to google it. I'm not denying it, I am just asking you, why you are saying that it's THE REASON for the brexit, while most people ACTUALLY VOTING do not state this as THEIR REASON for voting for brexit. Please answer that question instead of sidestepping it. Instead they bring up immigration and (lack of) democracy/transparancy. They brexit camp even ran their campaign by saying its not about economy, it's about other things. And here you come saying no, the brits are wrong about their own opinion... its actually economic after all.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

umeu wrote:I don't have to google it. I'm not denying it, I am just asking you, why you are saying that it's THE REASON for the brexit, while most people ACTUALLY VOTING do not state this as THEIR REASON for voting for brexit. Please answer that question instead of sidestepping it.


I have to ask you here, so we are on the same page: What are the UK ppl saying is the reason for leaving?
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by deleted_user0 »

"It's not the economy, stupid"
http://uk.businessinsider.com/eu-refere ... xit-2016-6
Immigration & Democracy

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/six- ... ote-leave/
economy listed only on the 4th spot, and none of it brings up Big Corp.

"3. Farage makes immigration the defining issue"
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu- ... m-36574526
8 reasons, none of it brings up middle class or big corp.

And thats just a quick google search...


The Brexit camp didnt run their campaign on economy because they know that the economy will probably tank, heck the entire economic sector is against brexit for this reason. You can say that ofcourse those are the big corp trying to protect their interest, and you are probably right about that. But just look at every recession in history, and tell me who paid for it the most during them. Big corp or middle class?
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by momuuu »

iwillspankyou wrote:@Jerom said:
The UK is included in the situation in Europe.

That is a pretty top - down position you take there. The UK working class does not feel the same.
UK had great growth, but the wealth did not go to the workers, but to the very top. So its pretty much the same situations you have in USA. And remembering your arguments there - you where strongly in favor of the common ppl.
You should read some statistics - and you will find the same trends as in USA.
I think this is the result of the gap between the "have" and "the have not" got go big.

Yes this is true. Unfortunately it has very little to do with the EU. The main goal of the EU seems to be economical growth. How to distribute the wealth (which would be done through taxes) is entirely decided by the countries themselves. I fail to see the correlation between the EU and the wealth distribution in a country, except for the part where the EU would cause growth which, when not interferred with, naturally distributes itself pretty unevenly.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by momuuu »

umeu wrote:"It's not the economy, stupid"
http://uk.businessinsider.com/eu-refere ... xit-2016-6
Immigration & Democracy

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/six- ... ote-leave/
economy listed only on the 4th spot, and none of it brings up Big Corp.

"3. Farage makes immigration the defining issue"
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu- ... m-36574526
8 reasons, none of it brings up middle class or big corp.

And thats just a quick google search...


The Brexit camp didnt run their campaign on economy because they know that the economy will probably tank, heck the entire economic sector is against brexit for this reason. You can say that ofcourse those are the big corp trying to protect their interest, and you are probably right about that. But just look at every recession in history, and tell me who paid for it the most during them. Big corp or middle class?

meh the first article is very disappointing. The entire paragraph under "the EU is not democratic" is mostly bullshit. Greece voted for the anti EU party. The anti EU party then tried to get better terms or leave the EU (which btw, would mean they basically stole money from the countries that bailed them out of bankruptcy) but eventually backed up because they realized leaving would be disastrous for Greece. Spain and Portugal's economic policies are being interfered with because they are in the euro zone and own incredible amounts of money to the other EU countries. When these EU countries bailed them out of the fucking economical end these countries agreed with these terms. It's being done like agreed upon. Which doesn't even adress that these cases are specific to the eurozone, which the UK doesnt even belong to.

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