England maybe leave EU june 23.

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Portugal sergyou
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by sergyou »

Dolan wrote:The EU can't impose a high minimum wage for every state, if their economy cannot support such high wages. It all depends on the performance of each economy. If Portugal's economy doesn't produce and sell enough to have a high GDP that would be better distributed per capita, then wages can't go up artificially. A wage increase must come from economic growth and productivity growth.

But it's also possible that your country's GDP may rise and wages could still stay low. Then businesses would get rich and employees wouldn't benefit much from this growth. Then it's a question of bargaining, negotiating using your trade unions.


Its 3% for every member is in the EU treaty
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Norway spanky4ever
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

@Dolan
A wage increase must come from economic growth and productivity growth

If that where the case, minimum vages would be far higher. The wealth has trickled up, and the increase in productivity has not benefited the working ppl for decades
A smaller piece of the pie for workers across the world
Between 1999 and 2011 average labour productivity in developed economies increased
more than twice as much as average wages (see figure 11). In the United States,
real hourly labour productivity in the non-farm business sector increased by about
85 per cent since 1980, while real hourly compensation increased by only around
35 per cent. In Germany, labour productivity surged by almost a quarter over the past
two decades while real monthly wages remained flat.
The global trend has resulted in a change in the distribution of national income,
with the workers’ share decreasing while capital income shares increase in a majority
of countries. Even in China, a country where wages roughly tripled over the last
decade, GDP increased at a faster rate than the total wage bill – and hence the labour
share went down.
The drop in the labour share is due to technological progress, trade globalization,
the expansion of financial markets, and decreasing union density, which have eroded
the bargaining power of labour. Financial globalization, in particular, may have played
a bigger role than previously thought.
The effects of a declining labour share
A decrease in the labour share not only affects perceptions of what is fair – particularly
given the growing concerns about excessive pay among CEOs and in the financial
sector – it also hurts household consumption and can thus create shortfalls in the
aggregate demand. These shortfalls in some countries have been compensated by
increasing their net exports, but not all countries can run a current account surplus
at the same time. Hence, a strategy of cutting unit labour costs, a frequent policy
recommendation for crisis countries with current account deficits, may run the risk
of depressing domestic consumption more than it increases exports. If competitive
wage cuts are pursued simultaneously in a large number of countries, this may lead
to a “race to the bottom” in labour shares, shrinking aggregate demand.
Implications for equitable growth
Income distribution and wage levels
The Global Wage Report contributes to a wider literature on the changes in the
distribution and levels of wages within and across countries, as well as on the
economic and social implications of these trends. One of the key findings of this
literature is the growing inequality in income, in terms of functional and personal
income distribution
.

https://www.google.no/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... V3qBp5_4Mg

I fear that TTIP will only increase this trend, cos lets be honest - this trade deal is meant to favor the big businesses and not the workers
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United States of America Papist
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by Papist »

iwillspankyou wrote:
Your answers surely makes me wonder how much you know about it :?: You suddenly a spesialist on EU also now - Papist :?:


Nope. I'm just deferring to Dolan's superior expertise instead of making unfounded claims.
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Nauru Dolan
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by Dolan »

sergyou wrote:Its 3% for every member is in the EU treaty

That's the public budget deficit limit for every Member state. And yeah, we know that before 2008 this rule hasn't been enforced much, as both Germany and France had bigger deficits than 3%. But that doesn't mean that failure to respect the treaties made the Portuguese unable to have higher wages. What's the link between failure to enforce the 3% deficit target and the living standards in each member state?
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by Dolan »

iwillspankyou wrote:@Dolan
A wage increase must come from economic growth and productivity growth

If that where the case, minimum vages would be far higher. The wealth has trickled up, and the increase in productivity has not benefited the working ppl for decades
I fear that TTIP will only increase this trend, cos lets be honest - this trade deal is meant to favor the big businesses and not the workers


Those are very different dynamics, all thrown together in the same basket. For example, yeah, German productivity may have increased more than their salaries, but their salaries were already quite high. And so were their living standards.

On the other hand, in China their economic growth used to be based on exporting cheap goods, made with cheap labour. So, this sort of economic growth is by its nature not based on domestic consumption. It's the exact opposite of how the USA thinks about growth. They think people must have more money to spend more so that businesses want to produce more and so, everyone wins.

But lately, China has been trying to change things around and focus more on growing the buying power of their citizens. They are focusing more on domestic consumption growth too, much more than they did a few years ago.

But anyway, there are very different economic conditions in different countries, so I'm not sure what a minimum wage policy could do to increase buying power. As I said before, it might lead to higher unemployment or an increase in the grey economy (tax evasion).

An economy is not a machine you can push buttons on and get predictable effects like in mechanics (physics).
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

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yemshi wrote:I am always right


Inbred kids say shit like that....
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

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...
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Portugal sergyou
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by sergyou »

Dolan wrote:
sergyou wrote:Its 3% for every member is in the EU treaty

That's the public budget deficit limit for every Member state. And yeah, we know that before 2008 this rule hasn't been enforced much, as both Germany and France had bigger deficits than 3%. But that doesn't mean that failure to respect the treaties made the Portuguese unable to have higher wages. What's the link between failure to enforce the 3% deficit target and the living standards in each member state?


it for sure did how can we pay a debt of 120% of our PIB , why can't our dept be forgiven like happened to other countries in europe so we can grow economically again ?
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by Laurence Drake »

A Labour MP was shot and killed today by a man who reportedly shouted 'Britain First'. I wonder what impact, if any, this will have on the campaigns and the outcome of the referendum.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

China has no choise, but to focus on domestic economy, cos of dropping in export.
In USA, in spite of what you say maybe right, that they think higher wages gives more growth, - the wages for middle- and working class has stagnated over the last 50 years. The inequality they have in USA is not something we would wish for in Europa. I guess workers unions are still stronger here than in USA, luckily.
@Dolan
As I said before, it might lead to higher unemployment or an increase in the grey economy (tax evasion).

Higher wages should lead to bigger tax income for the government. It goes without saying. Then maybe the government could manage their affairs without lending? After all the lending when tax incomes are shortcoming, is what has crashed economies (Puerto Rico, Greece, I guess Portugal to? etc)

Im not sure there would be significant more unemployment if wages are rising within reason - that is. After all there would be higher purchasing power as well. The reason there is fear for stagnation and deflation in the western countries right now, is because of the unsustainable inequality and stagnation in wages and purchasing power. When nobody can afford the products being manufactured, everybody looses :devilrazz:

Sixty five years of data reveals that claims made about the effect of increasing the minimum wage on unemployment have no basis in fact. The best possible argument that opponents of the minimum wage can make is that it has no effect one way or another on unemployment. However, the historical data suggests that increases in the minimum wage may have a positive effect on unemployment, as low wage workers find themselves with more disposable income following a minimum wage hike — money which is largely put right back into the economy.

https://www.google.no/url?sa=i&rct=j&q= ... 7174803127
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

Laurence Drake wrote:A Labour MP was shot and killed today by a man who reportedly shouted 'Britain First'. I wonder what impact, if any, this will have on the campaigns and the outcome of the referendum.


The question of staying or leaving EU is splitting the UK in 2 very divided fronts, and whatever decision they make on the 23. of june, will surly make a lot of ppl mad.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

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sergyou wrote:it for sure did how can we pay a debt of 120% of our PIB , why can't our dept be forgiven like happened to other countries in europe so we can grow economically again ?

Debt wasn't forgiven in Greece, it was restructured, meaning that instead of paying sooner they will pay later. It's like a moratorium they get until their economy gets better.

Portugal also got access to the EU rescue funds and got a big loan from the IMF. This means Portugal has enough credibility from the financial markets to borrow at low rates. So, you have the opportunity to use debt at much lower interest rates to create economic growth and have enough budgetary surplus to start paying your debt. The only way out for Portugal is through economic growth, increasing exports, increasing the quality of their products. But, of course, people don't have that patience, they want solutions which make things right at this moment. It's difficult to pay a total public debt of 120% of your GDP through economic growth. It's exactly the opposite of what you did until now, when you spent more money than you got from your economy.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

One could argue that the financial aid to Greece, was only helping their creditors (the big banks) cos the money they received where used to pay their interest rates and debt - leaving Greece in more and more debt.
One could also say that this helps to pros pone the final crash, and when that happens Greece will be in a worse state, and so will the creditors.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

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iwillspankyou wrote:Higher wages should lead to bigger tax income for the government. It goes without saying. Then maybe the government could manage their affairs without lending? After all the lending when tax incomes are shortcoming, is what has crashed economies (Puerto Rico, Greece, I guess Portugal to? etc)

Im not sure there would be significant more unemployment if wages are rising within reason - that is. After all there would be higher purchasing power as well. The reason there is fear for stagnation and deflation in the western countries right now, is because of the unsustainable inequality and stagnation in wages and purchasing power. When nobody can afford the products being manufactured, everybody looses :devilrazz:

So what's your question? You're asking me how to fix the global or Western economy?

Practice shows that forcing businesses to increase wages does not lead to increased purchasing power, it leads either to inflation or unemployment. Because if businesses increase wages, they will not want to be the one supporting this cost, so they will either cut their workforce, increasing unemployment, or increase the price of their products. Which leads to inflation. Businesses typically try to pass external costs to either their customers or to their workforce, by cutting the slack.

In many 2nd world and 3rd world countries, increasing the minimum wage almost always leads to increased tax evasion and an expansion of the grey economy. It's a well-known fact.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

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iwillspankyou wrote:One could argue that the financial aid to Greece, was only helping their creditors (the big banks) cos the money they received where used to pay their interest rates and debt - leaving Greece in more and more debt.
One could also say that this helps to pros pone the final crash, and when that happens Greece will be in a worse state, and so will the creditors.

Yeah, but that was because the Greeks lived a high living standards life for many years, when their economy did not support that. They lived on credit. Now it's paytime. So, it's time for them to live within their means. Simple as that.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by sergyou »

I was not talking about greece . We ve been in This situation for almost 10 years with ridicolus amount of people without a job and low salárys . U dont have a economic grow if ur country doesn't produce , if people don't have economic power to buy things , if u can't export products etc
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

@Dolan I am actually not asking you a question here. Just commenting on your post. I dont know about 2. and 3. world countries - outside the fact that there are alot of exploitation from Multinational companies going on there - and a lot of tax avoidance. And it has had consequences for workers in the western world cos of outsourcing millions of jobs.
The example I gave above, is from USA - a longitudinal assessment of 60 years.

I think if we really wanted to help 2. and 3. world, we should assist them with economical experts and lawyers - to get their fair income from Multinational companies. In fact, I know there are some aid from Norway funding coruption hunters via "Norad".
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

@Dolan
Yeah, but that was because the Greeks lived a high living standards life for many years, when their economy did not support that. They lived on credit. Now it's paytime. So, it's time for them to live within their means. Simple as that.


I am not disputing that. Its just a fact that Greece has had corupt government for ages, that borrowed money instead of taxing in order to get re-elected I suppose. But even so, its also a problem with EU and the banking system that gives so much loans?! Where where the control mechanisms??
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

@Dolan
Practice shows that forcing businesses to increase wages does not lead to increased purchasing power, it leads either to inflation or unemployment.

The statistics i showed you above, is concerning the minimum wages, and it reveals the oposit of what you say "practice" is showing.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

One explanation of the crises in Greece:[video]https://youtu.be/Gwf9bKyX1Q8[/video]
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by momuuu »

sergyou wrote:
Dolan wrote:
sergyou wrote:Its 3% for every member is in the EU treaty

That's the public budget deficit limit for every Member state. And yeah, we know that before 2008 this rule hasn't been enforced much, as both Germany and France had bigger deficits than 3%. But that doesn't mean that failure to respect the treaties made the Portuguese unable to have higher wages. What's the link between failure to enforce the 3% deficit target and the living standards in each member state?


it for sure did how can we pay a debt of 120% of our PIB , why can't our dept be forgiven like happened to other countries in europe so we can grow economically again ?

Because the rich countries dont want to randomly bail you out.. Lets be honest, its kinda stupid to blame the entire EU for the economical situation in countries like Portugal or Greece. The unfortunate situation is that we're in a deathpact where apperantly these countries cant function within a euro for some reason.

I dont even understand your proposal.. Do you want to dutch and german people to bail your country out? Why would they have to pay for whatever others fucked up...
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

@Jerom
The unfortunate situation is that we're in a deathpact where apperantly these countries cant function within a euro for some reason.


that is exactly why you have to help Greece - sooner than later I would suggest. Your pretty much in the same boat called EU - swim or sink :devilrazz:

Or leave like UK maybe do :huh:
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by momuuu »

Well yes Im not happy about greece being in. We shouldve just done the euro with strong and similair countries like how the entire EU originally started. Just scandinavia, austria, germany, nl, belgium, luxembourg, hopefully the UK and switzerland. Maybe france. Probably not italy without regulations.

Or they shouldve started with the 3% rule before it was too late. With the EU its the same. You cant let turkey join, theyre too different from us. Even countries like polland or romania are so different culturally and economically that the effects arent too great. I mean, theres this huge influx of polish labour over here and I dont think the people here are too happy with that.

But well, leaving the EU for the UK is going to be a disaster like Dolan explained nicely.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

Maybe the ESM could bail out Greece:[video]https://youtu.be/Tg4goZxXRZk[/video]

Be ready to pay :!:
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

Jerom wrote:Well yes Im not happy about greece being in. We shouldve just done the euro with strong and similair countries like how the entire EU originally started. Just scandinavia, austria, germany, nl, belgium, luxembourg, hopefully the UK and switzerland. Maybe france. Probably not italy without regulations.

Or they shouldve started with the 3% rule before it was too late. With the EU its the same. You cant let turkey join, theyre too different from us. Even countries like polland or romania are so different culturally and economically that the effects arent too great. I mean, theres this huge influx of polish labour over here and I dont think the people here are too happy with that.

But well, leaving the EU for the UK is going to be a disaster like Dolan explained nicely.


I dont think leaving will be a disaster. EU needs to trade with UK - maybe more so than visa versa. If they decide to leave, it will at least take 2 years - and in that time there will be a trade deal for sure.
I agree with you that EU has expanded to fast, taking in countries that are to poor, build up regulations and bureaucracy to powerful and to fast.
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