Reducing Workday hours

[kami_ryu]

-- deleted post --

[Goodspeed]

Maths are logic + numbers, yes. I don't know what this Godel kid was thinking

[benj89]

Yeah im not convinced. What about intelligence? Is that also a useless and mystifying concept? When you take certain greatest of all times in some extreme sports such as diving or langlaufing, they could do what they did because somehow their body absorbed more oxygin thats a natural ability. They were born with that, ofc they also trained. But a normal human being cant achieve that result even with training. His article is all fun but its honestly bs afaik. Hard work trumps talent most of the time because people either dont have a talent/natural ability thats decisive enough, or its applied wrongly or in the wrong area. But this isnt always so.

I'm not convinced either. I'd have never made it to the NBA because of genetics and lack of talent so ofc his article is biased. I think he mainly wanted to make a point and I wouldn't go as far as considering it bs.

He is definitely right about the power of habit/work ethic and that reaching excellence is also an accumulation of small things; people often underestimate/ignore these factors. Surrounding yourself (not necessarily physically) by people who challenge your limits is also important. People don't want to see what's behind an athlete, a top performer and you find a similar rhetoric behind "he is talented therefore he succeeded" and "life is unfair because of ...".
I found Tools of Titans by Tim Ferris interesting, related to this subject.

In the end, I do believe talent isn't correlated to what could be considered a successful life - while it is to excellence, but to a lesser degree than people might think.

[lejend]

Someone else may have been given a shitty hand, still work hard, but not have any luck and/or privileges so they can't get anywhere

hard work, and while that is definitely a necessary component for success, it's not and never has been sufficient.

Childrens' parental origins, including parental socioeconomic status, is an obvious determining factor in that child's life

Says who? Has it been empirically proven that humans are unable to overcome their childhood circumstances? This is bordering on the supernatural.

Privilege is not real. It is weird when people use that word unironically. Everyone has battles in life. It's a fact of life. Being "rich", male or whatever, doesn't shield you from it. That comic is a very inaccurate portrayal of life. I had my friends at the Google HQ backtrace it, and, apparently, it was made by an artist. What would he know about the lives and thoughts of the "rich"? It is fantasy.

phpBB [video]

Perhaps I was harsh in my words. I thought I'd share my knowledge or what little of it. If I didn't care about you, I would have said nothing at all. But I see knowledge isn't enough in your case. You are still afraid, cynical and lazy. Not as an insult, but that's my impression. I'm sure I am as well, but generally not when it comes to matters of finance. The world is made up of scared, cynical, lazy humans who'll help neither you nor themselves. You have to grab the world by the pussy if you want to achieve your dreams. That naturally involves being, "a happy warrior." Here's a cheat code for success.

[deleted_user0]

Not impossible no, i think no one said that. Much harder? For sure. For as long as we keep track of social mobility, its been known that not many people climb alot of steps on that ladder.

The comic may be inaccurate because its ofcourse limited in what it tells, but its far more accurate than the stuff youve been spouting.

And the stuff you say about privilige means you have no clue about how it works. Obviously everyone faces difficulties and problems, but that doesnt mean they face them as often or to the same degree of severity as others or have the same means to deal with them. Also its oabviously a statistical term, it because on average a certain group is priviliged doesnt mean everyone is. And just because on poor beggar became a millionaire, doesnt mean that they all can...

[lejend]

Can't or won't?

[deleted_user0]

Its obvious that not all can at the same time. Its possible that all have a chance, but i doubt even youd argue that chance is higher than that of a person with "fake privilige", right? If you inherit a million dollars, a network of businesspeople and a company, sure its easier to become a billionaire than when youre sleeping on the street, even though ofcourse they both equally fight their coke addiction

[lejend]

Its obvious that not all can at the same time.

Why?

Its possible that all have a chance, but i doubt even youd argue that chance is higher than that of a person with "fake privilige", right? If you inherit a million dollars, a network of businesspeople and a company, sure its easier to become a billionaire than when youre sleeping on the street, even though ofcourse they both equally fight their coke addiction

What do you mean by chance? That is not what probability is. It either happens or it doesn't. 50-50. It's a choice.

[Laurence Drake]

Its obvious that not all can at the same time.

Why?

Social mobility in the United States is a joke.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/ar ... ty/524610/
http://www.economist.com/news/united-st ... y-measured
https://www.americanprogress.org/issues ... n-america/

[lejend]

Inability or unwillingness?

[deleted_user0]

you are the economic genius, please explain to me how every person in the world can be a millionaire by current standards without devaluating currency.

[deleted_user0]

Its obvious that not all can at the same time.

Why?

Its possible that all have a chance, but i doubt even youd argue that chance is higher than that of a person with "fake privilige", right? If you inherit a million dollars, a network of businesspeople and a company, sure its easier to become a billionaire than when youre sleeping on the street, even though ofcourse they both equally fight their coke addiction

What do you mean by chance? That is not what probability is. It either happens or it doesn't. 50-50. It's a choice.

its not a choice, because you and your behavior are not the only decisive factor. and even though the only options are for it to happen or not, that doesnt mean the odds are 50/50. what fucking school did you attend lol. if you buy a lottery ticket every day, at the end of the day you are either a millionaire, or you arent. but its not 50 fucking per cent chance that you are or arent lol.

[Laurence Drake]

Its obvious that not all can at the same time.

Why?

Its possible that all have a chance, but i doubt even youd argue that chance is higher than that of a person with "fake privilige", right? If you inherit a million dollars, a network of businesspeople and a company, sure its easier to become a billionaire than when youre sleeping on the street, even though ofcourse they both equally fight their coke addiction

What do you mean by chance? That is not what probability is. It either happens or it doesn't. 50-50. It's a choice.

its not a choice, because you and your behavior are not the only decisive factor. and even though the only options are for it to happen or not, that doesnt mean the odds are 50/50. what fucking school did you attend lol. if you buy a lottery ticket every day, at the end of the day you are either a millionaire, or you arent. but its not 50 fucking per cent chance that you are or arent lol.

lejend never actually went to school.

[Goodspeed]

Privilege is not real. It is weird when people use that word unironically. Everyone has battles in life. It's a fact of life. Being "rich", male or whatever, doesn't shield you from it.

Yeah! My first world problems are just as bad as living in a warzone or literally starving to death.

[deleted_user0]

suffering is subjective.

[musketjr]

Its obvious that not all can at the same time. Its possible that all have a chance, but i doubt even youd argue that chance is higher than that of a person with "fake privilige", right? If you inherit a million dollars, a network of businesspeople and a company, sure its easier to become a billionaire than when youre sleeping on the street, even though ofcourse they both equally fight their coke addiction

this conversation seems to assume that financial wealth is the true metric of success in the world.

it's the metric of financial success, and whilst it definitely impacts life above and below a certain threshold (in a maslow's hierarchy of needs kind of way), beyond that i think the conversation is stifled by this assumption. life surely creates problems and challenges for everyone and in the grander scheme of things being rich or poor is a small part of the equation.

i think of plato's Myth of Er. it's an allegory at the end of The Republic related to justice. just before the myth plato had been describing why being just is beneficial in the life we know, and the myth is his illustration of how he thinks it's beneficial beyond that as well. (you don't have to agree or disagree with any of that. but i think parts of the story - particularly where Er sees people picking types of lives - are illustrative of how things like wealth are only superficial traits). in the story Er is someone who dies and observes the process of rebirth, which plato recounts (I'm pasting roughly the second half of it):

...these are the Fates, daughters of Necessity, who are clothed in white robes and have chaplets upon their heads, Lachesis and Clotho and Atropos, who accompany with their voices the harmony of the sirens -- Lachesis singing of the Past, Clotho of the Present, Atropos of the Future; Clotho from time to time assisting with a touch of her right hand the revolution of the outer circle of the whorl or spindle, and Atropos with her left hand touching and guiding the inner ones, and Lachesis laying hold of either in turn, first with one hand and then with the other.

When Er and the spirits arrived, their duty was to go at once to Lachesis; but first of all there came a prophet who arranged them in order; then he took from the knees of Lachesis lots and samples of lives, and having mounted a high pulpit, spoke as follows:

"Hear the word of Lachesis, the daughter of Necessity. Mortal souls, behold a new cycle of life and mortality. Your guardian spirit will not be allotted to you, but you will choose your own; and let him who draws the first lot have the first choice of life which of necessity shall be his. Excellence knows no master, and a man will have more or less of her according to the value he sets on her; the responsibility is with the chooser. The fault lies not with God, but with the soul that makes the choice."

When the Interpreter had thus spoken he scattered lots indifferently among them all, and each of them took up the lot which fell near him, all but Er himself (he was not allowed), and each as he took his lot perceived the number which he had obtained. Then the Interpreter placed on the ground before them the samples of lives; and there were many more lives than the souls present, and they were of all sorts. . . . There were tyrannies among them, some lasting out the tyrant's life, others which broke off in the middle and came to an end in poverty and exile and beggary; and there were lives of famous men, some who were famous for their form and beauty as well as for their strength and success in games, or, again, for their birth and the qualities of their ancestors; and some who were the reverse of famous for the opposite qualities. . . . There was every other quality, and they all mingled with one another, and also with elements of wealth and poverty, and disease and health; and there were mean [intermediate] states also.

And here, my dear Glaucon, is the supreme peril of our human state; and therefore the utmost care should be taken. Let each one of us leave every other kind of knowledge and seek and follow one thing only, if peradventure he may be able to learn and may find some one who will make him able to learn and discern between good and evil, and so to choose always and everywhere the better life as he has opportunity. He should consider the bearing of all these things which have been mentioned severally and collectively upon virtue; he should know what the effect of beauty is when combined with poverty or wealth in a particular soul, and what are the good and evil consequences of noble and humble birth, of private and public station, of strength and weakness, of cleverness and dullness, and of all the natural and acquired gifts of the soul, and the operation of them when conjoined. He will then look at the nature of the soul, and from the consideration of all these qualities he will be able to determine which is the better and which is the worse. And so he will choose, giving the name of evil to the life which will make his soul more unjust, and good to the life which will make his soul more just; all else he will disregard. For we have seen and know that this is the best choice both in life and after death. A man must take with him into the world below an adamantine faith in truth and right, that there too he may be undazzled by the desire of wealth or the other allurements of evil, lest, coming upon tyrannies and similar villainies, he do irremediable wrongs to others and suffer yet worse himself; but let him know how to choose the middle way and avoid the extremes on either side, as far as possible, not only in this life but in all that which is to come. For this is the way of happiness.

And according to the report of the messenger from the other world this was what the prophet said at the time:

"Even for the last comer, if he chooses wisely and will live diligently, there is appointed a happy and not undesirable existence. Let not him who chooses first be careless, and let not the last despair."

And when he had spoken, he who had the first choice came forward and in a moment chose the greatest tyranny; his mind having been darkened by folly and sensuality, he had not thought out the whole matter before he chose, and did not at first sight perceive that he was fated, among other evils, to devour his own children. But when he had time to reflect, and saw what was in the lot, he began to beat his breast and lament over his choice, forgetting the proclamation of the prophet; for, instead of throwing the blame of his misfortune on himself, he accused chance and the gods, and everything rather than himself. Now he was one of those who came from heaven, and in a former life had dwelt in a well-ordered State, but his virtue was a matter of habit only, and he had no philosophy. . . .

Most curious, he said, was the spectacle -- sad and laughable and strange; for the choice of the souls was in most cases based on their experience of a previous life. . . . There came also the soul of Odysseus having yet to make a choice, and his lot happened to be the last of them all. Now the recollection of former toils had disenchanted him of ambition, and he went about for a considerable time in search of the life of a private man who had no cares; he had some difficulty in finding this, which was lying about and had been neglected by everybody else; and when he saw it, he said that he would have done the same had his lot been first instead of last, and that he was delighted to have it. . . .

All the souls had now chosen their lives, and they went in the order of their choice to Lachesis [the Past], who sent with them the genius whom they had severally chosen, to be the guardian of their lives and the fulfiller of the[ir] choice: this genius led the souls first to Clotho [the Present], and drew them within the revolution of the spindle impelled by her hand, thus ratifying the destiny of each; and then, when they were fastened to this, carried them to Atropos [the Future], who spun the threads and made them irreversible, whence without turning round they passed beneath the throne of Necessity. And when they had all passed, they marched on in a scorching heat to the plain of Forgetfulness [Lethe], which was a barren waste destitute of trees and verdure; and then towards evening they encamped by the river of Unmindfulness, whose water no vessel can hold; of this they were all obliged to drink a certain quantity, and those who were not saved by wisdom drank more than was necessary; and each one as he drank forgot all things.

Now after they had gone to rest, about the middle of the night there was a thunderstorm and earthquake, and then in an instant they were driven upwards in all manner of ways to their birth, like stars shooting. He [Er] himself was hindered from drinking the water. But in what manner or by what means he returned to the body he could not say; only, in the morning, awaking suddenly, he found himself lying on the pyre.

And thus, Glaucon, the tale has been saved and has not perished, and will save us if we are obedient to the word spoken; and we shall pass safely over the river of Forgetfulness and our soul will not be defiled. Wherefore my counsel is that we hold fast ever to the heavenly way and follow after justice and virtue always, considering that the soul is immortal and able to endure every sort of good and every sort of evil.

Thus shall we live dear to one another and to the gods, both while remaining here and when, like conquerors in the games who go round to gather gifts, we receive our reward. And it shall be well with us both in this life and in the pilgrimage of a thousand years which we have been describing.

[deleted_user0]

Youre right about that, but i didnt want to unnecessarily complicate matters

[kami_ryu]

-- deleted post --

[lejend]

you are the economic genius, please explain to me how every person in the world can be a millionaire by current standards without devaluating currency.

its not a choice, because you and your behavior are not the only decisive factor. and even though the only options are for it to happen or not, that doesnt mean the odds are 50/50. what fucking school did you attend lol. if you buy a lottery ticket every day, at the end of the day you are either a millionaire, or you arent. but its not 50 fucking per cent chance that you are or arent lol.

Being a millionaire isn't about currency otherwise every Zimbabwean is a millionaire.

Everyone can have the living standards of a modern millionaire. I have spent hours explaining this, and I doubt arguing more will do any good. Your main problem is your motivation. Instead of literally googling how to become a wealthy person, you just stay in place and attribute wealth to immorality and luck, and think of life as a simple zero sum game.

That girl in your comic just goes with the flow, never examining why she does what she does, and whether there are any other solutions to her financial problems. It is ignorance inherited from her society and her parents. It's a choice.

Privilege is not real. It is weird when people use that word unironically. Everyone has battles in life. It's a fact of life. Being "rich", male or whatever, doesn't shield you from it.

Yeah! My first world problems are just as bad as living in a warzone or literally starving to death.

They are. Being in the first world guarantees political freedom and material comfort but certainly not happiness. That's a struggle for all humans by design that no amount of material comfort shields from.

phpBB [video]

In fact in these immoral times, a lot of firstworlders are raised from a young age to believe in evolution, which says they are worthless accidental monkeys with no purpose, except to chase the next chemical high. The nihilism and misery that results from that is way worse than war and starvation.

Those who suffer only materially at least learn the fullness of life, which is pretty priceless.

phpBB [video]

[deleted_user]

Lejend you're such an odd combination of, "hm that's a fair point" and, "you must be clinically insane."

[deleted_user0]

Yes exactly, and he just cherry picks all the time lol. Hes completely ignoring the stupidity of his 50% comment now rofl and goibg on about currency and how even slumdogs can live like a millionaire, atleast, a millionaire 1000 years ago. What a troll

[lejend]

Yes exactly, and he just cherry picks all the time lol. Hes completely ignoring the stupidity of his 50% comment now rofl and goibg on about currency and how even slumdogs can live like a millionaire, atleast, a millionaire 1000 years ago. What a troll

[Jam]

Teaching kids about evolution is worse than subjecting them to war and famine. Pack it up folks, thread's over. In fact I think the whole internet might be over. I'll miss you guys.

[Laurence Drake]

Out of curiosity, would you have "subscribed" to determinism if there was currently no perceived randomness in science?

I actually don't think determinism is important. Even if determinism was true, it wouldn't guarantee the existence of exceptionless natural laws, or the possibility of prediction/explanation in the sciences, at least under a deductive-nomological account of causation. The most interesting consequence of this is found in theories that incorporate some principle of mental anomalism (which I honestly couldn't explain any better than this article does). A correct theory of anomalous monism would practically undermine the claim that psychology could ever amount to a predictive science, even supposing determinism were true.

[Goodspeed]

Out of curiosity, would you have "subscribed" to determinism if there was currently no perceived randomness in science?

I actually don't think determinism is important. Even if determinism was true, it wouldn't guarantee the existence of exceptionless natural laws, or the possibility of prediction/explanation in the sciences, at least under a deductive-nomological account of causation. The most interesting consequence of this is found in theories that incorporate some principle of mental anomalism (which I honestly couldn't explain any better than this article does). A correct theory of anomalous monism would practically undermine the claim that psychology could ever amount to a predictive science, even supposing determinism were true.

I agree about it not being important. It's a fun discussion subject, though.
You didn't answer my question.