That's so random lol

Mr. Pecksniff · Post by **Mr. Pecksniff** » 13 Oct 2015, 15:09

Two different outcomes can emerge from identical conditions, so randomness is possible.

Prove me wrong, faggots.

evilcheadar · Post by **evilcheadar** » 13 Oct 2015, 15:57

Yes, I agree. In senecio editor I'll have 3 different groups of units and I'll play test senecio a bunch of times and the same group of units doesn't always win even though I never moved them in between trials or added more units to that group.

jaype22 · Post by **jaype22** » 13 Oct 2015, 15:58

evilcheadar wrote:Yes, I agree. In senecio editor I''ll have 3 different groups of units and I''ll play test senecio a bunch of times and the same group of units doesn''t always win even though I never moved them in between trials or added more units to that group.

That''s cause the conditions aren''t identical.

To the OP: That''s not how science works, explain your thought further first to prove it.

momuuu · Post by **momuuu** » 13 Oct 2015, 15:58

Are you trying to catch a wild gs?

Kaiserklein · Post by **Kaiserklein** » 13 Oct 2015, 15:59

frycookofdoom wrote:Two different outcomes can emerge from identical conditions, so randomness is possible.

Prove me wrong, faggots.

No

evilcheadar · Post by **evilcheadar** » 13 Oct 2015, 15:59

jaype22 wrote:
evilcheadar wrote:Yes, I agree. In senecio editor Ill have 3 different groups of units and Ill play test senecio a bunch of times and the same group of units doesnt always win even though I never moved them in between trials or added more units to that group.
Thats cause the conditions arent identical.

To the OP: Thats not how science works, explain your thought further first to prove it.

They are, I never did anything to my units before each play test.

jaype22 · Post by **jaype22** » 13 Oct 2015, 16:09

evilcheadar wrote:
jaype22 wrote:Thats cause the conditions arent identical.

To the OP: Thats not how science works, explain your thought further first to prove it.
They are, I never did anything to my units before each play test.

That still doesnt mean that the conditions are identical...

evilcheadar · Post by **evilcheadar** » 13 Oct 2015, 16:10

jaype22 wrote:
evilcheadar wrote:They are, I never did anything to my units before each play test.
That still doesnt mean that the conditions are identical...

Ok fella than tell me what would differ?

jaype22 · Post by **jaype22** » 13 Oct 2015, 16:12

evilcheadar wrote:
jaype22 wrote:That still doesnt mean that the conditions are identical...
Ok fella than tell me what would differ?

Do you know how a PC game works?!

yemshi · Post by **yemshi** » 13 Oct 2015, 16:16

Since you will never be able to have the exact same conditions, no. But saying there is no randomness is just wrong. So I'd say yes' Two different outcomes can emerge from identical conditions.

evilcheadar · Post by **evilcheadar** » 13 Oct 2015, 16:19

jaype22 wrote:
evilcheadar wrote:Ok fella than tell me what would differ?
Do you know how a PC game works?!

That how it differs? Ive never heard of that one before.

Mr. Pecksniff · Post by **Mr. Pecksniff** » 13 Oct 2015, 16:20

jaype22 wrote:
evilcheadar wrote:Yes, I agree. In senecio editor Ill have 3 different groups of units and Ill play test senecio a bunch of times and the same group of units doesnt always win even though I never moved them in between trials or added more units to that group.
Thats cause the conditions arent identical.

To the OP: Thats not how science works, explain your thought further first to prove it.

We can have two true statements, If A is true, then B is true, and If A is true, then C is true, such that their conjunction is also true and does not imply a contradiction. This shows that there may be a condition A from which two separate and entirely different outcomes will follow.

jerom wrote:Are you trying to catch a wild gs?

:whistling:

Aizamk · Post by **Aizamk** » 13 Oct 2015, 16:39

frycookofdoom wrote:
jaype22 wrote:Thats cause the conditions arent identical.

To the OP: Thats not how science works, explain your thought further first to prove it.
We can have two true statements, If A is true, then B is true, and If A is true, then C is true, such that their conjunction is also true and does not imply a contradiction. This shows that there may be a condition A from which two separate and entirely different outcomes will follow.

jerom wrote:Are you trying to catch a wild gs?
:whistling:

Not buying your explanation.

If I step in a puddle of water, then my shoe gets wet.
If I step in a puddle of water, then water gets displaced.
If I step in a puddle of water, then my shoe gets wet and water gets displaced.

I flip a coin. It is heads.
I flip a coin. It lands.
I flip a coin. It lands and is heads.

Metis · Post by **Metis** » 13 Oct 2015, 17:04

Identical physical conditions never occur in the real universe because two objects can't occupy the same positon in space-time and, therefore, will have slightly different environments. Within the confines of a logical system two variables can be identical, as in A=A. However, here you are never going to get any randomness unless you introduce it. As we discussed in a previous thread, there may not be absolute randomness (i.e., variables whose values are totally independent of anything else in existence) but it really doesn't matter as apparent randomness is sufficient to lower the effect of bias to the point where it has no appreciable effect on the outcome.

jaype22 · Post by **jaype22** » 13 Oct 2015, 17:57

metis wrote:Identical physical conditions never occur in the real universe because two objects can''t occupy the same positon in space-time and, therefore, will have slightly different environments. Within the confines of a logical system two variables can be identical, as in A=A. However, here you are never going to get any randomness unless you introduce it. As we discussed in a previous thread, there may not be absolute randomness (i.e., variables whose values are totally independent of anything else in existence) but it really doesn''t matter as apparent randomness is sufficient to lower the effect of bias to the point where it has no appreciable effect on the outcome.

This

/close

momuuu · Post by **momuuu** » 13 Oct 2015, 18:01

The discussion is interesting if you rephrase it: If two conditions were exactly identical, could something different happen? Or is that impossible for theoretical reasons that would make any consistency fall apart?

To me, I think it could be possible as long as there is some patern to it, creating a reproducable average and thus still creating the world we live in, which is deterministic on a macroscopic scale.

Metis · Post by **Metis** » 13 Oct 2015, 18:07

jerom wrote: If two conditions were exactly identical, could something different happen?

This question is known to philosophy as the Buridan''s Ass paradox. In the paradox a perfectly logical donkey is placed between two exactly equal piles of hay and starves to death because it can''t logically chose between them. As long as the piles of hay are equal in all aspects and also equidistant then all logical donkeys will always starve.

mnogud · Post by **mnogud** » 13 Oct 2015, 18:25

in terms of theory in philosophy either everything is random or else nothing is random

momuuu · Post by **momuuu** » 13 Oct 2015, 18:29

mnogud wrote:in terms of theory in philosophy either everything is random or else nothing is random

why cant we have a bunch of random effects that on a macroscopic scale make up non-random phenomena.

gibson · Post by **gibson** » 14 Oct 2015, 03:08

metis wrote:
jerom wrote: If two conditions were exactly identical, could something different happen?
This question is known to philosophy as the Buridans Ass paradox. In the paradox a perfectly logical donkey is placed between two exactly equal piles of hay and starves to death because it cant logically chose between them. As long as the piles of hay are equal in all aspects?and also equidistant then all logical?donkeys will always starve.

isnt it illogical for him to not pick one?

Dolan · Post by **Dolan** » 14 Oct 2015, 03:10

jerom wrote:
mnogud wrote:in terms of theory in philosophy either everything is random or else nothing is random
why cant we have a bunch of random effects that on a macroscopic scale make up non-random phenomena.

This is pretty much how our physical world works. I wouldnt be surprised if randomness is actually necessary on a small scale for the macro world to be more predictable. The world is pretty much made up of conflicting principles and laws (such as http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/second-law-of-thermodynam/).

Metis · Post by **Metis** » 14 Oct 2015, 03:11

gibson wrote:
metis wrote:This question is known to philosophy as the Buridans Ass paradox. In the paradox a perfectly logical donkey is placed between two exactly equal piles of hay and starves to death because it cant logically chose between them. As long as the piles of hay are equal in all aspects and also equidistant then all logical donkeys will always starve.
isnt it illogical for him to not pick one?

Thats the paradox. Its illogical for the ass to let itself starve but it would also be illogical for it to pick one identical action over the other.

Dolan · Post by **Dolan** » 14 Oct 2015, 03:42

metis wrote:It''s illogical for the ass to let itself starve

But life makes no sense, so the ass is smart. He picks one pile of hay that seems more attractive, even though it''s not.

krichk · Post by **krichk** » 14 Oct 2015, 05:29

I guess Einstein would answer something about God not playing dice. It is one of his least convincing demonstration though.

Metis · Post by **Metis** » 14 Oct 2015, 06:05

This is a good article on randomness:

http://www.americanscientist.org/issues ... ness/99999

He essentially comes to the same conclusion that I did, namely that for practical purposes randomness does indeed exist.

even if the entire observable universe were converted into supercomputers working on telling the output from random, those supercomputers would probably have degenerated into black holes and radiation before they??d made a dent in the problem

ESOC

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