So, what are your thoughts on abortion?

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So, what are your thoughts on abortion?

Post by Sgt_ROFLCopter »

How much time have you spent "looking at the lives of lesser intelligent creatures?" Do you realize that things can't evolve for purposes? That's ridiculous. That's antithetical to the concepts of random mutations and natural selection, the central dogma of evolutionary biology.

On Friday I gave a lecture regarding evolutionary modeling techniques that was entirely dependent on my claim that evolution can only be accurately described when the genes themselves are the competing actors. If I had tried to argue that the goal of all living things on earth is food and reproduction as a fundamental component of my model, I would have been stuck trying to defend that point the whole time. Its silly and overly simplistic. Stop calling it a fact.
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So, what are your thoughts on abortion?

Post by evilcheadar »

sgtroflcopter wrote:How much time have you spent "looking at the lives of lesser intelligent creatures?" Do you realize that things can''t evolve for purposes? That''s ridiculous. That''s antithetical to the concepts of random mutations and natural selection, the central dogma of evolutionary biology.

On Friday I gave a lecture regarding evolutionary modeling techniques that was entirely dependent on my claim that evolution can only be accurately described when the genes themselves are the competing actors. If I had tried to argue that the goal of all living things on earth is food and reproduction as a fundamental component of my model, I would have been stuck trying to defend that point the whole time. Its silly and overly simplistic. Stop calling it a fact.



Wow roflcopter you''re hitting straight m?tis status posts here. *Strokes neckbeard
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So, what are your thoughts on abortion?

Post by Sgt_ROFLCopter »

evilcheadar wrote:
sgtroflcopter wrote:How much time have you spent "looking at the lives of lesser intelligent creatures?" Do you realize that things cant evolve for purposes? Thats ridiculous. Thats antithetical to the concepts of random mutations and natural selection, the central dogma of evolutionary biology.

On Friday I gave a lecture regarding evolutionary modeling techniques that was entirely dependent on my claim that evolution can only be accurately described when the genes themselves are the competing actors. If I had tried to argue that the goal of all living things on earth is food and reproduction as a fundamental component of my model, I would have been stuck trying to defend that point the whole time. Its silly and overly simplistic. Stop calling it a fact.

Wow roflcopter youre hitting straight m?tis status posts here. *Strokes neckbeard
But based on his posts on these threads I think wed disagree on everything. It we met in real life we would argue non-stop. The best of friends.
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So, what are your thoughts on abortion?

Post by Metis »

sgtroflcopter wrote:
evilcheadar wrote:Wow roflcopter youre hitting straight m?tis status posts here. *Strokes neckbeard
But based on his posts on these threads I think wed disagree on everything. It we met in real life we would argue non-stop. The best of friends.
From your previous post it seems that you may have attended a scientific meeting or two. Put a hundred scientists into a room and you will get at least ten different viewpoints. The only time scientists dont argue is when their fields are so divergent that they cant understand what the other is saying. However, all this argument is one of the cornerstones of science and has led to the knowledge we have today.
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So, what are your thoughts on abortion?

Post by Sgt_ROFLCopter »

metis wrote:
sgtroflcopter wrote:But based on his posts on these threads I think wed disagree on everything. It we met in real life we would argue non-stop. The best of friends.
From your previous post it seems that you may have attended a scientific meeting or two. Put a hundred scientists into a room and you will get at least ten different viewpoints. The only time scientists dont argue is when their fields are so divergent that they cant understand what the other is saying. However, all this argument is one of the cornerstones of science and has led to the knowledge we have today.

You havent refuted my point, youve just patronized it.
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So, what are your thoughts on abortion?

Post by Metis »

sgtroflcopter wrote:
metis wrote:
You havent refuted my point, youve just patronized it.
I didnt realize I was trying to refute your point but now Im not even sure what it is.
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So, what are your thoughts on abortion?

Post by forgrin »

From a population ecology standpoint:
Survival of the species =/= survival of the specific individual. As we seem to be approaching "Max pop" on Earth, aka our equilibrium population in a logistic growth model (which we have already passed if we want Northern Europe/north American living standards for all), we need to severely limit our growth to net zero or maybe decrease it.

If abortions are one of the things enabling this, then they have to stay around. Obviously there are much better ways to control population, but you alwasy have to account for accidents/idiots.
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So, what are your thoughts on abortion?

Post by evilcheadar »

forgrin wrote:From a population ecology standpoint:
Survival of the species =/= survival of the specific individual. As we seem to be approaching "Max pop" on Earth, aka our equilibrium population in a logistic growth model (which we have already passed if we want Northern Europe/north American living standards for all), we need to severely limit our growth to net zero or maybe decrease it.

If abortions are one of the things enabling this, then they have to stay around. Obviously there are much better ways to control population, but you alwasy have to account for accidents/idiots.
Scientists are actively developing ways to create more zoe''s cookbooks worth 5 pop for the overpopulation issue.
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So, what are your thoughts on abortion?

Post by Durokan »

Abortion should be legal because in the eye of the law there is nothing morally wrong with killing people --- the law does not have morals. Without passing judgement on what is right and wrong [which can vary based on perspective], people have varying morals and the law should not cater to any set of morals. Rather, murder [and other crimes] should be illegal not because they are morally wrong, but because they disrupt order. Abortion does not disrupt order, so it should not be illegal. The law should cater to rational thought and logic, not a sense of morality.
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So, what are your thoughts on abortion?

Post by evilcheadar »

durokan wrote:Abortion should be legal because in the eye of the law there is nothing morally wrong with killing people --- the law does not have morals. Without passing judgement on what is right and wrong [which can vary based on perspective], people have varying morals and the law should not cater to any set of morals. Rather, murder [and other crimes] should be illegal not because they are morally wrong, but because they disrupt order. Abortion does not disrupt order, so it should not be illegal. The law should cater to rational thought and logic, not a sense of morality.


How would you define order here.
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So, what are your thoughts on abortion?

Post by Durokan »

evilcheadar wrote:
durokan wrote:Abortion should be legal because in the eye of the law there is nothing morally wrong with killing people --- the law does not have morals. Without passing judgement on what is right and wrong [which can vary based on perspective], people have varying morals and the law should not cater to any set of morals. Rather, murder [and other crimes] should be illegal not because they are morally wrong, but because they disrupt order. Abortion does not disrupt order, so it should not be illegal. The law should cater to rational thought and logic, not a sense of morality.
How would you define order here.
I would use this definition of order as, "A state where disruption is kept to a minimum through respect for authority."
A disruption is something that impedes the normal workflow of society.
In this case, if doing something does not disrupt the flow of society, then it should be legalized/legal.
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So, what are your thoughts on abortion?

Post by evilcheadar »

durokan wrote:
evilcheadar wrote:How would you define order here.
I would use this definition of order as, "A state where disruption is kept to a minimum through respect for authority."
A disruption is something that impedes the normal workflow of society.
In this case, if doing something does not disrupt the flow of society, then it should be legalized/legal.


Well then who decides order in society is king? Wouldnt they defend order using some sort of morality?
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So, what are your thoughts on abortion?

Post by Durokan »

evilcheadar wrote:
durokan wrote:I would use this definition of order as, "A state where disruption is kept to a minimum through respect for authority."
A disruption is something that impedes the normal workflow of society.
In this case, if doing something does not disrupt the flow of society, then it should be legalized/legal.
Well then who decides order in society is king? Wouldnt they defend order using some sort of morality?
No it doesnt have to be a king. It can be any sort of a government. The government defends its code of law on the basis that it is rational and fair. This is based on the assumption of course that rationality is correct.
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So, what are your thoughts on abortion?

Post by evilcheadar »

durokan wrote:
evilcheadar wrote:Well then who decides order in society is king? Wouldnt they defend order using some sort of morality?
No it doesnt have to be a king. It can be any sort of a government. The government defends its code of law on the basis that it is rational and fair. This is based on the assumption of course that rationality is correct.

so you would say that "morals" and the people that have them are not based in rationality?
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So, what are your thoughts on abortion?

Post by Kaiserklein »

People against abortion are really retards... They're mainly the same as those against the gay marriage, those very ones who love to interfere into other people's life when they aren't concerned in any way, just because they want their "morals" to prevale over what other people want for themselves.
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So, what are your thoughts on abortion?

Post by Mimsy for President »

Retards because they have a different opinion. Such wow, much communism.
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So, what are your thoughts on abortion?

Post by arriah »

shaolinstar wrote:Retards because they have a different opinion. Such wow, much communism.



While I wouldn''t use the word "retard", I wouldn''t mind their opinion if it was indeed just an opinion. No, instead most of them feel they must make it law and harass women and companies that do more good than they can apparently comprehend.
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So, what are your thoughts on abortion?

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So, what are your thoughts on abortion?

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So, what are your thoughts on abortion?

Post by Metis »

durokan wrote: Abortion does not disrupt order, so it should not be illegal.
This is actually a pretty sound rationalist argument. Though I might disagree from the ethical standpoint of implied individual rights -- specifically, the right of an entity that cannot chose for itself to have society act in its best self interests -- it''s rather hard to refute. Of course most here will argue against rationalism because it doesn''t "feel" good.

It''s interesting that our other current thread has pretty much come around to a discussion of birth control and abortion too. You might notice that I''m actually arguing from different standpoints in both threads. Personally, I''m all about individual rights. However, in a world that''s rapidly approaching 10 billion people, I can see that we have to control our population for we, and all other species, are going to be in dire straights if we don''t. I was just reading an article today about the severe decline of lions in Africa. The drastic decline of an important top predator is a signal that an ecosystem is in trouble.
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So, what are your thoughts on abortion?

Post by Metis »

kaiserklein wrote:People against abortion are really retards... They''re mainly the same as those against the gay marriage, those very ones who love to interfere into other people''s life when they aren''t concerned in any way, just because they want their "morals" to prevale over what other people want for themselves.
Arguing from the rights of the individual you can both argue for gay marriage and against abortion. Any person has a right to marry any other person who wants to marry them. A woman has a right to an abortion under certain circumstances, However, a fetus also has a right not to be aborted. If a woman choses to have sex, choses not to use birth control and choses to wait until the fetus is nearly viable before seeking an abortion then it is incumbent on society to act in the best self interests of the fetus and forbid said abortion.
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So, what are your thoughts on abortion?

Post by Kaiserklein »

shaolinstar wrote:Retards because they have a different opinion. Such wow, much communism.
You''re one of those americans who think that "communist" is the worst existing insult ? Chill man, the cold war is over.
It''s not about opinions, just they want to act into other people''s lives when they are not even concerned, and want to restrict other people''s liberties. They want to rule other people''s lives in the name of their morals... Which is why they are retards
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So, what are your thoughts on abortion?

Post by arriah »

metis wrote:
kaiserklein wrote:People against abortion are really retards... Theyre mainly the same as those against the gay marriage, those very ones who love to interfere into other peoples life when they arent concerned in any way, just because they want their "morals" to prevale over what other people want for themselves.
Arguing from the rights of the individual you can both argue?for gay marriage and against abortion. Any person has a right to marry any other person who wants to marry them. A woman has a right to an abortion under certain circumstances, However, a?fetus also has a right not to be aborted. If a?woman choses to have sex, choses not to use birth control and choses to wait until the fetus is nearly viable before seeking an abortion then it is incumbent on society to act in the best self interests of the fetus and forbid said abortion.


What if they have recently found out that it is a high risk pregnancy? What if a woman is coming from domestic violence relationship? Who determines wether the woman is worthy? Strangers? The government can stay out of womens uteruses and personal lives, tyvm.
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So, what are your thoughts on abortion?

Post by Mimsy for President »

@kaiserklein
"They want to rule other people's lives in the name of their morals" Isn't it what the people you are defending are trying to do ?

And to get back to your point, the Cold War didn't end because the USSR collapsed (not unofficially at least). You can still see the 2 Blocs if you have a minimum knowledge of geopolitics. And no I'm not American, I'm your fellow countryman.

EDIT : I agree there is no more communism as we've known it though. Luckily.
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So, what are your thoughts on abortion?

Post by Metis »

arriah wrote:Who determines wether the woman is worthy? Strangers? The government can stay out of women''s uteruses and personal lives, tyvm.
It seems that you are just spouting the feminist party line without providing much real information here. Collect some facts, develop some reasonable premises and then present a sound argument based on valid logic.

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