What if the central powers won WW1

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What if the central powers won WW1

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[img]http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02078/Kaiser_2078634b.jpg[/img]
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What if the central powers won WW1

Post by Mimsy for President »

Well I guess there wouldn't have been WW2. Amarite ?
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What if the central powers won WW1

Post by Metis »

This would be a big "what if" but let's say for the sake of argument that Germany had sued for peace early on and the US had not entered WW I. For one thing, the influenza pandemic of 1918-1919 that killed more people than the war did (estimates go as high as 50 million) would probably not have occurred.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC340389/
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What if the central powers won WW1

Post by Mr. Pecksniff »

France and Russia would've lost their empires, Germany would've become the leading continental power, and the United States' rise as a global power would have been delayed.
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Post by lordraphael »

i may be biased but i actually do think that the worlds history would have gone much better (meaning fewer wars/ deaths etc ) if germany / austria-hungary had won the first world war.
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What if the central powers won WW1

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I think like you.
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What if the central powers won WW1

Post by sunimirio »

shaolinstar wrote:Well I guess there wouldn''t have been WW2. Amarite ?
There would not be WW2 if Treaty of Versailles was fair and rightful (Germany manage to payed all WW1 debt in 2010) because it started poverty and disorder (for example in Weimar Republic you had to payed your coffe as soon as you order because while you drink it the price of coffe increase for 100% or 200% maybe more...). Hitler used that situation for his power,he promised a lot of things that were prohibited by Treaty of Versailles and it is scientifically proven that people in that state of mind are very affected by far-right solutions. You would probably think "Why people choose Hitler among all other partys and leaders?" Well Hitler and NSDAP(National Socialist German Workers'' Party) had very good and tempting presentation about radical, fast and strong facts/solutions based on injustice of Treaty of Versailles where others had bad access to people and were offering only slow,slightly progress through out democracy and bureaucracy.
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What if the central powers won WW1

Post by Metis »

I'm not sure that there would have been no WWII had WWI ended more favorably for Germany. Japan would have spread its empire pretty much the same as it did in our timeline and would have eventually started wars with Russia and China. With no collapse of colonial powers the US may have retained the Philippines and thus declared war when japan tried to annex them. If the Japanese Empire took the Philippines and then attacked Australian territory or British India then Britain would have gone to war with them too. If Japan attacked French Indonesia, which it probably would have done, France would have entered the war. Hard to say what other European countries would have done but it would have been a world war none the less.
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What if the central powers won WW1

Post by mongobillione »

who cares actually lets be happy switzerland got that job done
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What if the central powers won WW1

Post by deleted_user0 »

metis wrote:This would be a big "what if" but let''s say for the sake of argument that Germany had sued for peace early on and the US had not entered WW I. For one thing, the influenza pandemic of 1918-1919 that killed more people than the war did (estimates go as high as 50 million) would probably not have occurred.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC340389/

wtf... why would that be. influenza started in 1917 anyway. and winning the war doesnt mean they wouldve won it in 1914, though thats the only time they really came close. 1918 was the next time they had a chance, perhaps if they had emptied russia of troops and usa hadnt come. but most likely it wouldve just become an eternal stalemate.

dont see how the truce of 1919 has anything to do with a pandemic disease, that most likely didnt even originate in europe.
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What if the central powers won WW1

Post by Metis »

umeu wrote:
wtf... why would that be. influenza started in 1917 anyway.
Wars lead to disease and its spread due to malnutrition, poor living conditions, displaced peoples, and troop and materials movements. The influenza virus, being an RNA virus, readily mutates. The 1916 flu outbreak among British troops was a less virulent strain as was the 1917 outbreak among Chinese workers. The disease was carried from China to the US, where it mutated into the most virulent strain and was then transmitted to France by American soldiers in 1918. If America had never entered the war there is a good chance that the global pandemic would not have occurred or would have had much less impact. By 1920 influenza had killed anywhere from 50 to 100 million people worldwide, many times more than the war itself did.
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Post by stevelance »

metis wrote:
umeu wrote:wtf... why would that be. influenza started in 1917 anyway.
Wars lead to disease and its spread due to malnutrition, poor living conditions, displaced peoples, and troop and materials movements. The influenza virus, being an RNA virus, readily mutates. The 1916 flu outbreak among British troops was a less virulent strain as was the 1917 outbreak among Chinese workers. The disease was carried from China to the US, where it mutated into the most virulent strain and was then transmitted to France by American soldiers in 1918. If America had never entered the war there is a good chance that the global pandemic would not have occurred or would have had much less impact. By 1920 influenza had killed anywhere from 50 to 100 million people worldwide, many times more than the war itself did.
What happened to all the dead people?
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metis wrote:
umeu wrote:wtf... why would that be. influenza started in 1917 anyway.
Wars lead to disease and its spread due to malnutrition, poor living conditions, displaced peoples, and troop and materials movements. The influenza virus, being an RNA virus, readily mutates. The 1916 flu outbreak among British troops was a less virulent strain as was the 1917 outbreak among Chinese workers. The disease was carried from China to the US, where it mutated into the most virulent strain and was then transmitted to France by American soldiers in 1918. If America had never entered the war there is a good chance that the global pandemic would not have occurred or would have had much less impact. By 1920 influenza had killed anywhere from 50 to 100 million people worldwide, many times more than the war itself did.

well, might very well argue that a french defeat in ww1 would have led to a civil war as happened in germany in the 20s in which the communists would have presented themselves as a very strong party, perhaps even the dominating one. This may very well lead to the usa interfearing or sending military "advisors" as well as adventurers that will join the cause. the pandemic may very well still happen.

what im trying to say is that you seem to assume that the central powers winning the war will somehow lead to a magic stability in europe. which i think might very well be far from it. france will collapse, brittain will have to pay huge reparations and will face rebellions in india and africa for sure, perhaps even australia and canada will demand independence. italy will be (partially) split up between germany and austria-hungary as a penalty for their betrayal and this in turn will lead to nationalist and socialist tension in that country as well. mussolini may very well still find a way to power. and ofcourse germany will be policing in russia, and may very well become deeply involved in that conflict, perhaps even siding with their old enemy, tsarist russia and put down the communist upstarts.

in fact, in short term, id say, the central powers winning would have led to more instability and war than what historically happened, for sure because there would be no league of nations idea and they would have far less political capital to dictacte world politics as usa/britain/france did after the war.
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What if the central powers won WW1

Post by Metis »

umeu wrote:
metis wrote:
you seem to assume that the central powers winning the war will somehow lead to a magic stability in europe.
Not at all, I merely pointed out that the influenza pandemic might have been lessened.

I sincerely doubt that Germany could have won the war in the sense that it could have forced an unconditional surrender of France and Italy and Britain even without US intervention. With US intervention it is too farfetched to think that Germany could have won the war at all.

Germany was on the verge of economic and social collapse in 1918, whereas the US was just turning into a global power, having recently won a war against Spain, gaining all of its remaining colonies outside of Africa. Agriculture, industry, commerce, and innovation were booming in the US in the first two decades of the 20th century. And its civilian population hadnt directly suffered the effects of war for some time.

However, had the US decided not to enter the war and had the allies known it wouldnt then Germany may have sued for peace with better terms. Or, maybe the German people would have revolted early and ended the war that way. Its very hard to speculate "what ifs" with something as complex as a WWI.
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What if the central powers won WW1

Post by Metis »

What has always intrigued me about WWI is that Czar Nicholas II of Russia and Kaiser Wilhelm II of Germany were first cousins, grandsons of Queen Victoria of Britain.
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What if the central powers won WW1

Post by Good ol Ivan »

metis wrote:This would be a big "what if" but lets say for the sake of argument that Germany had sued for peace early on and the US had not entered WW I. For one thing, the influenza pandemic of 1918-1919 that killed more people than the war did (estimates go as high as 50 million) would probably not have occurred.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC340389/
For one I think Germany had a better chance to win WW1 than WW2.
By 1918 they also fucked up by spending too much time occupying the Baltics and other territories acquired when Russia quit the war, and further demobilizing 1 million troops on the east.


frycookofdoom wrote:France and Russia wouldve lost their empires
Well by 1917 Russia wasnt an empire anymore.
France is more interesting though. A dismantled france would likely lead to either a Fascist france, or a communist France. Not sure how many Frenchies sympathized with communism in the early 20th century, but Germany had plenty of those. Hell, Germany almost turned communist after WW1. Many parts of Germany did for a short period of time.
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Post by Good ol Ivan »

sunimirio wrote:
shaolinstar wrote:Well I guess there wouldnt have been WW2. Amarite ?
There would not be WW2 if Treaty of Versailles was fair and rightful (Germany manage to payed all WW1 debt in 2010) because it started poverty and disorder (for example in Weimar Republic you had to payed your coffe as soon as you order because while you drink it the price of coffe increase for 100% or 200% maybe more...). Hitler used that situation for his power,he promised a lot of things that were prohibited by Treaty of Versailles and it is scientifically proven that people in that state of mind are very affected by far-right solutions. You would probably think "Why people choose Hitler among all other partys and leaders?" Well Hitler and NSDAP(National Socialist German Workers Party) had very good and tempting presentation about radical, fast and strong facts/solutions based on injustice of Treaty of Versailles where others had bad access to people and were offering only slow,slightly progress through out democracy and bureaucracy.
The allies justified Versailles by calling off Germany for the Brest Litovsk treaty with Russia, which was far harsher than that of Versailles.
Fascism is capitalism in decline - it always rises as a reaction to the radical left (which appliess for Spain, Hungary, Italy and Germany).
And Hitler would have lost the election had the socialist and communist parties of germany made a coalition.
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Post by sunimirio »

ivan wrote:
sunimirio wrote:There would not be WW2 if Treaty of Versailles was fair and rightful (Germany manage to payed all WW1 debt in 2010) because it started poverty and disorder (for example in Weimar Republic you had to payed your coffe as soon as you order because while you drink it the price of coffe increase for 100% or 200% maybe more...). Hitler used that situation for his power,he promised a lot of things that were prohibited by Treaty of Versailles and it is scientifically proven that people in that state of mind are very affected by far-right solutions. You would probably think "Why people choose Hitler among all other partys and leaders?" Well Hitler and NSDAP(National Socialist German Workers Party) had very good and tempting presentation about radical, fast and strong facts/solutions based on injustice of Treaty of Versailles where others had bad access to people and were offering only slow,slightly progress through out democracy and bureaucracy.
The allies justified Versailles by calling off Germany for the Brest Litovsk treaty with Russia, which was far harsher than that of Versailles.
Fascism is capitalism in decline - it always rises as a reaction to the radical left (which appliess for Spain, Hungary, Italy and Germany).
And Hitler would have lost the election had the socialist and communist parties of germany made a coalition.
I am not going to talk about Brest Litovsk treaty as one of the reasons for WW2,
simply because in that time in Russia Nikola II. was killed and October Revolution has started, result of all that was forming Soviet Union by communists and having revolution + war with Central Powers wasnt really smart ,so they signed Brest Litovsk treaty.
Hm... Well i can say that Treaty of Versailles is world wide recognized as one of the reasons why NSDAP got on power and it is one of causal relationship with WW2
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Post by Good ol Ivan »

...yeah, I'm just saying Brest Litovsk was harsher with Russia than Versailles was with Germany.
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Post by sunimirio »

ivan wrote:...yeah, I''m just saying Brest Litovsk was harsher with Russia than Versailles was with Germany.
Well that is true in territory meaning Versailles (31 827 km[sup]2[/sup]) and Brest Litovsk (~1 116 844 km[sup]2[/sup]) with fact that Versailles term still stands. :D
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Post by Good ol Ivan »

sunimirio wrote:
ivan wrote:...yeah, Im just saying Brest Litovsk was harsher with Russia than Versailles was with Germany.
Well that is true in territory meaning Versailles (31 827 km[sup]2[/sup]) and Brest Litovsk (~1 116 844 km[sup]2[/sup]) with fact that Versailles term still stands. :D
...youre arguing Versailles should have been "fair and rightful" in order to avoid WW2. I disagree and believe Versailles was a fair punishment, specially considering the Germans were far harsher and ruthless than the triple entente was.
And its not just because of Brest Litovsk (which would have certainly stayed in rule had Germany won the war), Germans are also responsible for being the first nation in using and deploying lethal gases in large scale (along other dangerous chemical weapons). Overall I have little sympathy for them, and the "ww2 was the allies fault all along!" argument seems rather ridiculous to me.

To avoid WW2, the west should have just played its cards before Hitler did. But its not like the allies unintentionally forget to enforce Versailles even though France and Germany shared a border. The treaty wasnt enforced because the allies hoped Hitler would help them to fight off Stalin while they stayed completely uninvolved in the conflict. Shame Hitler didnt invade the U.K.
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Post by fightinfrenchman »

ivan wrote:
sunimirio wrote:Well that is true in territory meaning Versailles (31 827?km[sup]2[/sup]) and?Brest Litovsk (~1 116 844?km[sup]2[/sup]) with fact that?Versailles term still?stands. :D
...youre arguing Versailles should have been "fair and rightful" in order to avoid WW2. Im saying thats bullshit - Versailles was a fair punishment, specially considering the Germans were far harsher and ruthless than the triple entente was.
And its not just because of Brest Litovsk (which would have certainly stayed in rule had Germany won the war), Germans are also responsible for being the first nation in using and deploying lethal gases in large scale (along other dangerous chemical weapons). Overall I have little sympathy for them.

To avoid WW2, the west should have just played their cards before Hitler did. But they hoped Hitler would be fighting off Stalin while the European colonial powers stayed somehow completely uninvolved in the conflict.



The only way we could have prevented the greater war was to come up with a cure for IBs (irritable bowrl syndrome) . it would have calmed Adolph down and he wouldnt be so aggressive/irritable
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ivan wrote:
sunimirio wrote:Well that is true in territory meaning Versailles (31 827 km[sup]2[/sup]) and Brest Litovsk (~1 116 844 km[sup]2[/sup]) with fact that Versailles term still stands. :D
...youre arguing Versailles should have been "fair and rightful" in order to avoid WW2. I disagree and believe Versailles was a fair punishment, specially considering the Germans were far harsher and ruthless than the triple entente was.
And its not just because of Brest Litovsk (which would have certainly stayed in rule had Germany won the war), Germans are also responsible for being the first nation in using and deploying lethal gases in large scale (along other dangerous chemical weapons). Overall I have little sympathy for them, and the "ww2 was the allies fault all along!" argument seems rather ridiculous to me.

To avoid WW2, the west should have just played its cards before Hitler did. But its not like the allies unintentionally forget to enforce Versailles even though France and Germany shared a border. The treaty wasnt enforced because the allies hoped Hitler would help them to fight off Stalin while they stayed completely uninvolved in the conflict. Shame Hitler didnt invade the U.K.
"Fair and rightful" for lethal gases and chemical weapons, haha well where is that "fair and rightful" for atomic bombs so that dont stand for me... you are saying "ww2 was the allies fault all along!...argument seems rather ridiculous to me." and in same post in one way you confirm that allies were so indulgent to Hitler for specific reasons listed above that results. Allies with these procedures helped Hitler to raise to power and to make Molotov??Ribbentrop Pact with Stalin while that give him time to halved Poland and invade West Europe! :D... they tryed to invade U.K. actually and failed with Oberkommando der Wehrmacht operation"Sea Lion" because navy wasnt ready and they were planning to invade after Luftwaffe attack and that was failure so they cancel the operation.
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Post by Mr. Pecksniff »

fightinfrenchman wrote:
ivan wrote:...youre arguing Versailles should have been "fair and rightful" in order to avoid WW2. Im saying thats bullshit - Versailles was a fair punishment, specially considering the Germans were far harsher and ruthless than the triple entente was.
And its not just because of Brest Litovsk (which would have certainly stayed in rule had Germany won the war), Germans are also responsible for being the first nation in using and deploying lethal gases in large scale (along other dangerous chemical weapons). Overall I have little sympathy for them.

To avoid WW2, the west should have just played their cards before Hitler did. But they hoped Hitler would be fighting off Stalin while the European colonial powers stayed somehow completely uninvolved in the conflict.

The only way we could have prevented the greater war was to come up with a cure for IBs (irritable bowrl syndrome) . it would have calmed Adolph down and he wouldnt be so aggressive/irritable

Agreed, Id say IBS was one of the prime factors behind millions of deaths that occurred in the past century.
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Post by Good ol Ivan »

sunimirio wrote:"Fair and rightful" for lethal gases and chemical weapons, haha well where is that "fair and rightful" for atomic bombs so that dont stand for me...
What?
I dont approve the use of atomic bombs neither.

sunimirio wrote:you are saying "ww2 was the allies fault all along!...argument seems rather ridiculous to me." and in same post in one way you confirm that allies were so indulgent to Hitler for specific reasons listed above that results. Allies with these procedures helped Hitler to raise to power and to make Molotov??Ribbentrop Pact with Stalin while that give him time to halved Poland and invade West Europe! :D...

Yeah on second thought and rereading my post, that sentence sounds silly and contradictory. I guess I could have phrased myself better.

sunimirio wrote:they tryed to invade U.K. actually and failed with Oberkommando der Wehrmacht operation"Sea Lion" because navy wasnt ready and they were planning to invade after Luftwaffe attack and that was failure so they cancel the operation.

It was cancelled because Germany overstimated the U.K.

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