European forum members: thoughts on immigration?

[momuuu]

one could argue that europe still has the technological lead even.

Anyhow, it seems the fact that europe manage to suddenly develope really quickly was more coincidence than the result of culture. For example, most early european universities also had a significant portion of it devoted to studying the religion. Even Newton spent quite some time studying religious texts.

Coincidence? Hell no, it was the Renaissance which pulled us out of the Dark Ages. Thats why we are where we are today.
You couldnt write or study anything which contradicted the church dogma.

Not quite. Scientific revolution happened after the Renaissance had long been going on, and Galileo still didnt have to right to say whatever he wanted. It wasnt until Newton that science had beaten religion.

[oxaloacetate]

Immigrant are paid people who are trying to ruin the peace in Europe and then ISIS can use that weakness and create big country or khalifat or whatever they will call it.
Alot of people are scared of this.

Just as your posts were becoming less shit..

[thebritish]

Immigrant are paid people who are trying to ruin the peace in Europe and then ISIS can use that weakness and create big country or khalifat or whatever they will call it.
Alot of people are scared of this.

Just as your posts were becoming less shit..

This has been posted on one news media site where one publisher talked to one of the immigrants.

[Dolan]

@Jerom

But I didn't say that... I said the Renaissance pulled Europe out of the dark ages, and that starting from the 11th century Europe took the lead in terms of development.

After the Western Roman Empire collapsed, most of the classical works of science and philosophy from ancient sources were lost. Western Europe came in contact with these ancient sources of knowledge again after the Arab conquest of Spain and during the Crusades. So Europeans recovered these ancient sources of knowledge from the Arabs. The collapse of the Roman Empires lead to a decline in populations, construction works, historical writings and just in cultural investment in general. The re-discovery of ancient texts from Arab sources sparked a lot of interest, it basically re-started the scientific and philosophical life of Europe. Universities based their curricula on these new sources of knowledge (mostly Aristotle's works).

During the late 10th and 11th centuries the rise of the Northern Italian city-states sparked a lot of commerce in the Mediteranian Sea, which made a lot of people rich, that's when the first modern forms of capitalism appeared. The city states also had an incipient form of democracy, choosing their political leaders by holding elections. That was really advanced for that time in history.

That's when many of the oldest and biggest universities of Europe got founded (Paris, Siena). This whole process (ancient texts rediscovery, new debates, new universities) had a huge impact on Europe's future scientific research, by creating the infrastructure, the knowledge networks which were later used by scientists. This is what I meant when I said that starting from the late 10th - early 11th centuries Europe already got ahead of most of the world.

[Metis]

You can't directly compare the enlightened Empires of the Middle East's distant past to the people living there today, just as you can't compare the Egypt, Rome or Athens of ancient times to the same cities today.

[irr3alist]

its all about water/droughts, they were heading to EU anyways sooner or later and we need a few million immigrants to offset future population decline. Japan used to be wealthy but now has shitty eco negative pop growth and 0% immigration ( Thats what u get by closing your borders). Any economist understands Merkel very well.

Holland needs about 2 million people to upkeep our wellfare state and prevent pop decline coming 20 yrs. Alrdy lots of schools have closed cuz there arent enough children born.

Facts ....

yelling emotional Dutch people on benefits with so much time on their hands to demonstrate during the day are completely useless to my pension plans. I'd swap them for 10 Syrians wanting to pick veg and flowers at minimum wage cuz thats all taxes for my pension.

btw 1 euro spent on a refugee gives an 8 euro tax return over 5 years.I also prefer 25 billion spent on refugees in Holland than somewhere in Africa. This way village economies get a nice boost out of aid money which was to be spent on some poverty project in the world.

[jaype22]

Just as your posts were becoming less shit..

This has been posted on one news media site where one publisher talked to one of the immigrants.

Just post the link and stop saying bullshit without any proof.

[yoqpasa]

Nations must preserve their identities. Islam = Cancer. My country fought and died during 7 centuries against them.

[Metis]

we need a few million immigrants to offset future population decline.

Alrdy lots of schools have closed cuz there arent enough children born.

If it weren''t for the US citizen kids of illegal immigrants, the town I live in would have seen its school system merged with the next town''s long ago. Since the school is the one of the few remaining businesses in town (there is not even a grocery store), this would have resulted in the loss of at least half the town''s population.

[Mimsy for President]

@yoqpasa
Spanish inquisition ? What your people did in the Americas ? If I follow your logic, Christianity and the Spaniards are cancers too. I don't think that works that way.

[Metis]

@yoqpasa
Spanish inquisition ? What your people did in the Americas ? If I follow your logic, Christianity and the Spaniards are cancers too. I don''t think that works that way.

It amazes me that so many people think that were it not for European immigration, Native Americans would have lived peaceably in harmony with themselves and nature for ever and ever. Those "noble savages" were slaughtering each other by the hundreds of thousands long before Europeans ever showed up on their shores. The Aztec Empire routinely slaughtered about 20,000 conquered people every year in its temples. In 1487 it slaughtered 84,000 in the dedication of one temple alone.

[yoqpasa]

@yoqpasa
Spanish inquisition ? What your people did in the Americas ? If I follow your logic, Christianity and the Spaniards are cancers too. I don''t think that works that way.

Yeah, I guess we could be a cancer for the native people in Amercia, like British, French, Dutch, etc. Not offended. And of course Christianity was a cancer centuries ago, no doubt. But today who are burning witches?

[irr3alist]

Metis gets it in respect to immigration and rapid pop decline. Not sure about whether the US is better off with having the white Europeans decide whats right and wrong rather than having had the aboriginal population taking care of things.

[yoqpasa]

@yoqpasa
Spanish inquisition ? What your people did in the Americas ? If I follow your logic, Christianity and the Spaniards are cancers too. I dont think that works that way.

It amazes me that so many people think that were it not for European immigration, Native Americans would have lived peaceably in harmony with themselves and nature for ever and ever. Those "noble savages" were slaughtering each other by the hundreds of thousands long before Europeans ever showed up on their shores. The Aztec Empire routinely slaughtered about 20,000 conquered people every year in its temples. In 1487 it slaughtered 84,000 in the dedication of one temple alone.

I Agree. Hern?n Cort?s (Spanish conqueror who defeated Aztecs) was allied with other native civilizations which were oppressed by Aztecs.

[Mimsy for President]

@yoqpasa
Spanish inquisition ? What your people did in the Americas ? If I follow your logic, Christianity and the Spaniards are cancers too. I dont think that works that way.

It amazes me that so many people think that were it not for European immigration, Native Americans would have lived peaceably in harmony with themselves and nature for ever and ever. Those "noble savages" were slaughtering each other by the hundreds of thousands long before Europeans ever showed up on their shores. The Aztec Empire routinely slaughtered about 20,000 conquered people every year in its temples. In 1487 it slaughtered 84,000 in the dedication of one temple alone.

Now thanks to Metis, the Europeans came there like mediators. Because there was no such thing as a massacre in Europe, Asia and in Africa. I feel less guilty right now.

[Metis]

The Spanish were hardly "nice guys" where the aboriginal Americans were concerned, far from it. However, like yoqpasa said, they would not have been able to do anything had not they blundered into a situation where a single powerful group was oppressing surrounding peoples that greatly outnumbered them. The Aztec Empire was not built up from a strong base of people who had formed their own government but by a small powerful faction that held numerous other tribes in thrall.

The Aztec Empire, though seemingly powerful, was actually rather tenuous. Whereas the Spanish had just completed the retaking the Iberian peninsula from the occupying Moors, unified their disparate kingdoms, and emerged as a major power.

Also, the Aztec and European ideas of warfare were quite different.

"The Aztec strategy of war was based on the capture of prisoners by individual warriors, not on working as a group to kill the enemy in battle, By the time the Aztecs came to recognize what warfare meant in European terms, it was too late." -- New World Encyclopedia, Aztec Civilization

[Metis]

It's always bemused me how so many people will moan and wail about how their ancestors conquered and oppressed some poor peaceful peoples and how they should somehow atone for this. Do you think those "poor peaceful peoples" wouldn't have done the same if they had been able to? If my distant ancestors stopped the Romans dead in their tracks then power to them. If my countrymen fought for four hundred years to conquer a continent then power to them too. The best men won. If you don't like it then feel free to try to retake your land.

[Mimsy for President]

The Spanish were hardly "nice guys" where the aboriginal Americans were concerned, far from it. However, like yoqpasa said, they would not have been able to do anything had not they blundered into a situation where a single powerful group was oppressing surrounding peoples that greatly outnumbered them. The Aztec Empire was not built up from a strong base of people who had formed their own government but by a small powerful faction that held numerous other tribes in thrall.

The Aztec Empire, though seemingly powerful, was actually rather tenuous. Whereas the Spanish had just completed the retaking the Iberian peninsula from the occupying Moors, unified their disparate kingdoms, and emerged as a major power.

Also, the Aztec and European ideas of warfare were quite different.

"The Aztec strategy of war was based on the capture of prisoners by individual warriors, not on working as a group to kill the enemy in battle, By the time the Aztecs came to recognize what warfare meant in European terms, it was too late." -- New World Encyclopedia, Aztec Civilization

What it has to do with the pillage, massacres and forced evangelization ?

[Mimsy for President]

It''s always bemused me how so many people will moan and wail about how their ancestors conquered and oppressed some poor peaceful peoples and how they should somehow atone for this. Do you think those "poor peaceful peoples" wouldn''t have done the same if they had been able to? If my distant ancestors stopped the Romans dead in their tracks then power to them. If my countrymen fought for four hundred years to conquer a continent then power to them too. The best men won. If you don''t like it then feel free to try to retake your land.

So you justify the atrocities. And while you''re there, why don''t you also justify all the acts of terrorism ? Double standards, double standards everywhere. :rolleyes:

[Mr_Bramboy]

It's so hard for me not to be racist about this subject because I have been living with Maroccans and Turks for 15 years now and I think I can safely say from experience that the vast majority is lazier, tends to get in touch with the police more often, and causes more trouble in the area. Therefore a part of me wants to say 'fuck the immigrants' but I know that this is plain wrong and that we should help these people, even if it will severely damage our country.

[Metis]

causes more trouble in the area.

While most of the illegal Mexicans here work hard and mind their own business, if you read the police reports you will quickly see that they also account for 80% of the crime in the area too. Some of these crimes are petty ones, such as having no drivers licenses or vehicle insurance, which very few of them have. However, many of the crimes are serious drug dealing offences, rapes, weapons charges, etc. It''s hard to get a weapons charge here in a state that has some of the most lenient gun laws in the US' this usually means something like an unregistered machine gun or explosive device (i.e., most of these criminals are not "small-town" but rather drug cartel members that have come in with the workers).

[Mr_Bramboy]

causes more trouble in the area.

While most of the illegal Mexicans here work hard and mind their own business, if you read the police reports you will quickly see that they also account for 80% of the crime in the area too. Some of these crimes are petty ones, such as having no drivers licenses or vehicle insurance, which very few of them have. However, many of the crimes?are serious drug dealing offences, rapes, weapons charges, etc. Its?hard to get a weapons charge here in a state that has some of the most lenient gun laws in the US' this usually means?something like an unregistered machine gun or explosive device (i.e., most of these criminals are not?"small-town" but rather drug cartel members that have come in with the workers).

With trouble, I ment making a lot of noise at night, breaking bus stops and littering the area and nearby pre school

[Metis]

if you read the police reports you will quickly see that they also account for 80% of the crime in the area too.

With trouble, I ment making a lot of noise at night, breaking bus stops and littering the area and nearby pre school

Oh, I was referring to this type of trouble (from the local court reports here):

Domestic Battery.
Violation of Protection from Abuse Order
Theft, aggravated assault
Aggravated Indecent Liberties with a Child
Possession of Opiates, Opium or Narcotic drugs with intent to distribute
Driving under Influence of Alcohol and/or Drugs, no insurance, no drivers license

[glenoidfossa]

With trouble, I ment making a lot of noise at night, breaking bus stops and littering the area and nearby pre school

Oh, I was referring to this type of trouble (from the local court reports here):

Domestic Battery.
Violation of Protection from Abuse Order
Theft, aggravated assault
Aggravated Indecent Liberties with a Child
Possession of Opiates, Opium or Narcotic drugs with intent to distribute
Driving under Influence of Alcohol and/or Drugs, no insurance, no drivers license

Fuckin ragheads

[Metis]

Oh, I was referring to this type of trouble (from the local court reports here):

Domestic Battery.
Violation of Protection from Abuse Order
Theft, aggravated assault
Aggravated Indecent Liberties with a Child
Possession of Opiates, Opium or Narcotic drugs with intent to distribute
Driving under Influence of Alcohol and/or Drugs, no insurance, no drivers license

Fuckin ragheads

Wrong culture. Many illegal immigrants are decent, hard-working individuals. However, they do tend to bring a lot of crime up with them. Partly this is because the same people that preyed on them in their old country travel with them and prey on them, and others, in their new country. Also, many of these people are of the poor underclass, a subset that tends to account for a lot of crime in any culture.