ESOCommunity

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bramboy wrote:It''s so hard for me not to be racist about this subject because I have been living with Maroccans and Turks for 15 years now and I think I can safely say from experience that the vast majority is lazier, tends to get in touch with the police more often, and causes more trouble in the area. Therefore a part of me wants to say ''fuck the immigrants'' but I know that this is plain wrong and that we should help these people, even if it will severely damage our country.

meh, you dont even know the full extend of them. Playing football in Utrecht''s competition makes it hard to respect them, or the rest of humanity for that matter.

One has to understand that their issues arent inherent to their race though. The problem is that they, just as many other immigrants, belong to the less developed people of society. A large part of that is that they failed to integrate in society, that their parents failed to learn our language, which makes them speak Dutch poorly aswell and consequently do bad at school.

Thats the whole problem I have with immigration of large groups from one culture. It allows them to form a ''community'' with other people like them, or rather it means they wont feel the need to intergrate and thus wont intergrate. The result is that, even 40 years after theyve come to your country, they will still be a problem in your society because they have not adapted properly to the western culture. That results in problems for them, aswell as the surge of terrible people like Geett wilders and the surge of hatred and rascism among the people.

That being sad, the group of maroccans that came to the Netherlands was fairly uneducated, and its being said that most of the current immigrants are very well educated. Maybe those adapt better and cause much less problems.

To countries other than UK: why are you guys taking in refugees? You have no responsibility with what's happening in middle east. Only england and the americas have most of the blame.

jerom wrote:

bramboy wrote:

they failed to integrate in society, that their parents failed to learn our language, which makes them speak Dutch poorly aswell and consequently do bad at school.

Thats the whole problem I have with immigration of large groups from one culture. It allows them to form a community with other people like them, or rather it means they wont feel the need to intergrate and thus wont integrate.

America is a bit different situation as everyone here, including the so-called "natives" is an immigrant.

Some people say that America should be a "tossed salad" with each group retaining its original culture. However, an area that consists of a mixture of completely different cultures isnt going to be stable. To continue the analogy, I think that ones former culture should be like the ingredients used in a soup, with each ingredient giving up a part of itself to the whole and taking the overall favor of the whole into itself.

When tens of thousands of immigrants remain in their enclaves, speaking their own language, following their own religion, and interacting little with anyone not of their own culture, one can see how the surrounding people might be a bit leery of them. A great many have decried Americas policy of educating Indians as a systematic attempt to wipe out their culture but it was mostly done with the intent of integrating them into American culture.

In the last couple of decades, about a tenth of the population of Mexico has come across Americas southern border, mostly illegally. If they dont want to turn the southern states of America into northern Mexico, with all of the problems, perceived or real, that they have fled, then they need to be less Mexican and more American. Education seems to be the key here. Mexican kids that grow up going to American schools, and who dont get involved in Mexican gangs, usually turn out to be normal American kids.

Be aware and proud of your ancestral culture but also be aware of that its not the one in which you are living now. If you refuse to integrate into your new culture you will be seen less as immigrants and more as invaders.

noissance wrote:To countries other than UK: why are you guys taking in refugees? You have no responsibility with what''s happening in middle east. Only england and the americas have most of the blame.

America has spent a trillion dollars trying to set up a stable, democratic Iraq. If this has failed it''s not our fault but theirs. Also, you have left out a few countries that are also involved the war, like Russia, France, Saudi Arabia, Iraq (on both sides), Iran, Turkey, Qatar, Jordan...

noissance wrote:To countries other than UK: why are you guys taking in refugees? You have no responsibility with what''s happening in middle east. Only england and the americas have most of the blame.

Youre perhaps the least discerning eye I''ve ever met.

metis wrote:

noissance wrote:To countries other than UK: why are you guys taking in refugees? You have no responsibility with whats happening in middle east. Only england and the americas have most of the blame.

America has?spent a trillion dollars?trying to set up a stable, democratic?Iraq.?If this has failed its not our fault but theirs. Also, you have left out a few countries that are also involved the?war,?like Russia, France, Saudi Arabia, Iraq (on both sides), Iran, Turkey, Qatar, Jordan...

England and irs buddies started the mess because it drew imaginary borders that put people of different relegion/tribes together. I am just asking why america needs to clean up their mess.

frycookofdoom wrote:

noissance wrote:To countries other than UK: why are you guys taking in refugees? You have no responsibility with whats happening in middle east. Only england and the americas have most of the blame.

Youre perhaps the least discerning eye Ive ever met.

I say let the people in the middle east region kill each other. Any "tourist" or "reporter" who fets kidnapped is stupid for going over there in the first place.
Either way, it all comes down to $. Dick cheney manipulated bush into starting iraq war so he could get better crude supply for the companies he had a stake in.

metis wrote:America has spent a trillion dollars trying to set up a stable, democratic Iraq. If this has failed it''s not our fault but theirs.

It was none of USA''s business to set up a democracy in Iraq, this is what happens when you don''t understand other cultures and you think what works in yours will work everywhere, "it just needs that X factor removed".
I actually don''t buy the "let''s export democracy" thesis at all, I think it was all done for oil and setting a strategic foot right next to Iran.

dolan wrote:

metis wrote:America has spent a trillion dollars trying to set up a stable, democratic Iraq. If this has failed its not our fault but theirs.

It was none of USAs business to set up a democracy in Iraq, this is what happens when you dont understand other cultures and you think what works in yours will work everywhere. "

Sure, we could have just left a brutal regime in place. From a terrorism standpoint that might have been the best thing to do, there were few terrorists in Iraq under Hussein. Im sure that Iraqs neighbors wouldnt have minded being invaded now and again and the Kurds wouldnt have minded the occasional nerve-gas attacks on their cities either.

metis wrote:

dolan wrote:It was none of USAs business to set up a democracy in Iraq, this is what happens when you dont understand other cultures and you think what works in yours will work everywhere. "

Sure, we could have just left a brutal regime in place. From a terrorism standpoint that might have been the best thing to do, there were few terrorists in Iraq under Hussein. Im sure that Iraqs neighbors wouldnt have minded being invaded now and again and the Kurds wouldnt have minded the occasional nerve-gas attacks on their cities either.

Well at least in the 80s the U.S. didnt share your concerns about Iraqi neighbors and the Kurds. Not when Ronald Reagan and Bush father assisted/supported Hussein with intelligence, logistics, and dual-use technologies...

While Im not a fan of Hussein, its obvious the war wasnt a humanitarian mission, the U.S. was just seeking to protect its own interests.
And now that ISIS effectively controls half of the country, Iraq is certainly much more of a mess than it was during Saddams government.

hey I live next to a port and every day I witness thousands of immigrants arriving to my country. I'm not bothered by immigrants even though their behaviour is hostile against my country that has saved their lives because their destination is northen countries and my country is just a station to their journey

My thoughts are these:

'fuugees welcome ?? JAPS GET OUT!

Essentially, America creates unwarranted interruption the middle east by creating pathetic excuse to go to war. Create devastated nations, funds ISIS that causes displacement of refugees and tells on refugees to go to Germany. The aim is to weaken there allies via this influx of refugees to insure that they are unequivocally the dominate power. Essentially insuring that their allies are in fact vassals. Call me a conspirator, but the whole thing can't be taken at face value. It's all a load a shit, including the hate propaganda against Russia when they decide to enter the middle east to deal with the shit US has started and refuses to finish. I mean seriously, what audacity US has to took all this shit that Russia should mind there own business when US it literally in the other side of the world and has no business in the middle east in the first place.

ark.cade.race.champ wrote:http://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3531

I support building wall around this country.

What's done is done: the West REALLY screwed up the Middle East, and now they're starting to feel the blowback. A LOT of muslims living in the Middle East don't even know about 9/11 -- their experience is just western powers coming out of nowhere to bomb and kill their people for ostensibly no real reason.

That being said, I come from a Muslim background (my dad's side is muslim), and my experience with muslims is that they are the nicest and most generous people I have ever met (so much more so than my "christian" friends in the states). Every single muslim I know is hardworking and peaceful. Obviously every bunch has bad apples, but it pains me to see the blatant racism that is arising in Europe after these attacks.

I think instability and upbringing in war breeds things like terrorism and religious fundamentalism, not Islam or some cultural factor. Remember that fundamental Christianity highly resembled what we are seeing today from Islam (dark ages/crusades). It's ignorant to say that just because we are brown or believe in a different god, we are lazy or want to kill/convert all non-believers. My dad has a PhD in the sciences, and I'm in a pretty good spot myself. If you place a society of christians in the same situation as the middle east (constant bombing by mysterious and unfathomably powerful countries, terrible poverty caused by exploitation of your natural resources, etc.), I am convinced the same outcomes would occur.

So I think it's lazy and intellectually dishonest thinking to just blame this on Islam or race. We need to take an honest look at what factors have caused this new movement, and only then can we start to have impactful policy that will actually help solve the problems. But until we can do that, things like this will sadly continue to happen -- closing borders won't do a thing.

Why is this thread suddenly getting so much attention again?

samtheham wrote:What's done is done: the West REALLY screwed up the Middle East, and now they're starting to feel the blowback. A LOT of muslims living in the Middle East don't even know about 9/11 -- their experience is just western powers coming out of nowhere to bomb and kill their people for ostensibly no real reason.

That being said, I come from a Muslim background (my dad's side is muslim), and my experience with muslims is that they are the nicest and most generous people I have ever met (so much more so than my "christian" friends in the states). Every single muslim I know is hardworking and peaceful. Obviously every bunch has bad apples, but it pains me to see the blatant racism that is arising in Europe after these attacks.

I think instability and upbringing in war breeds things like terrorism and religious fundamentalism, not Islam or some cultural factor. Remember that fundamental Christianity highly resembled what we are seeing today from Islam (dark ages/crusades). It's ignorant to say that just because we are brown or believe in a different god, we are lazy or want to kill/convert all non-believers. My dad has a PhD in the sciences, and I'm in a pretty good spot myself. If you place a society of christians in the same situation as the middle east (constant bombing by mysterious and unfathomably powerful countries, terrible poverty caused by exploitation of your natural resources, etc.), I am convinced the same outcomes would occur.

So I think it's lazy and intellectually dishonest thinking to just blame this on Islam or race. We need to take an honest look at what factors have caused this new movement, and only then can we start to have impactful policy that will actually help solve the problems. But until we can do that, things like this will sadly continue to happen -- closing borders won't do a thing.

Great post. Completely agree.

So, how many layers of wall do we need?

samtheham wrote: terrible poverty caused by exploitation of your natural resources, etc.

Do you think that all that oil and oil money from Iraq just gets packed on a ship and sent to America? America buys relatively little Iraqi oil, and most of that is from the Kurds.

Then who gets most of the oil, it's the "West" right? Hardly.

80% goes to Asia, with China purchasing half the oil that Iraq produces, nearly a million barrels a day. Chinese state-owned companies invest $2 billion a year into developing Iraq oil. The US companies are not even in the largest producing areas but mainly in the Kurdish region, which is in much better shape than it was under Hussein (it wasn't the US that was nerve gassing them).

US oil imports

from Iraq -- 4 million barrels a month.
from Canada -- 120 million barrels a month.


http://econospeak.blogspot.com/2013/03/ ... r-war.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/03/world ... .html?_r=0
http://www.iraq-businessnews.com/tag/oil-exports/

Just because we're not mass importing Iraqi oil right now does not mean that oil had no influence in our decision to invade Iraq.

Despite the outcomes, the presence of large oil fields was undoubtedly a large factor in the Bush administration's decision to invade Iraq. Many members of the Bush cabinet thought they could easily pay for the war by selling oil fields in Iraq.

Excerpt from the CNN article linked below:

"Of course it's about oil; we can't really deny that," said Gen. John Abizaid, former head of U.S. Central Command and Military Operations in Iraq, in 2007. Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan agreed, writing in his memoir, "I am saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: the Iraq war is largely about oil." Then-Sen. and now Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel said the same in 2007: "People say we're not fighting for oil. Of course we are."

You're conflating intent with actual outcomes, which is misleading.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/n ... 354269.stm
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/19/opinion/i ... il-juhasz/

That's all very nice but we need to start calculating how many walls we need to protect us. Maybe Metis could help a bit? I find maths pretty difficult and also have problems dealing with the technological aspects of calculators.

Anyway, so what do we do?
I actually think we europeans might have to look for help outside of europe.
I mean, do you feel safe if you look at that shit they had in former east germany:

My estimation is that probably 2-3 suicide assasins (maybe even one, depends on how heavy they're loaded) could be enough to get a hole in there. And then what? Europe could be infiltrated...

Therefore I'm thinking more in this direction:

Of course we would need the chinese to help us replicate (or even improve, but I don't want to dream) such a masterpiece.

The last and naturally best modell that I want to present is this:

Isn't she a beauty?

Also that scene already anticipates the challenge such a euopean wall will have to be able to withstand.

What do you guys think? I'm counting on your work.

This is about protecting humanity.

samtheham wrote:Remember that fundamental Christianity highly resembled what we are seeing today from Islam (dark ages/crusades).

The Mongols' siege of Baghdad (1258) caused more destruction in an Islamic caliphate than the European crusades, and still we keep hearing this argument that "hey guys, let's not forget Europeans also launched crusades in the Middle East" more than half of millenium ago. Does anyone condemn Mongols today? Does anyone condemn Turkey for the destruction the Ottoman empire caused for centuries?

Noo, the Euros are the bad guys, because they are developed, so they are a better target. Why attack Mongolia or Turkey for its bloody past? Nothing to gain by arguing that.

Dolan wrote:still we keep hearing this argument that "hey guys, let's not forget Europeans also launched crusades in the Middle East" more than half of millenium ago.

What those decrying the Crusades conveniently fail to point out are the hundreds of Muslim attacks on Europe and the Mediterranean.